engine electrical systems

Recently, my '87 34, with a Universal Diesel (M25), began not starting when I hit the start button. I replaced the starter button, the glow plug button and the keyed switch; all with quality parts from a marina.

I did mark, and take pictures of how the old switches were wired; NONE had + or - indicated. I hooked the new ones up identical to the old ones, and still NOTHING. The batteries are both putting out 12+ Volts; I have cleaned all grounds and positive terminals on the batteries, engine block and starter solenoid. I have banged on the solenoid......still nothing.

Anybody have any ideas??? I am not good with electrical problems, but have checked the voltage across the screws if the switches. Sometimes I get 12+ across them, but sometimes across the starter button I seem to get a -12V reading, but sometimes it also gives me a +12 reading......is this because I use the wrong probes on the multimeter, or am I hallucinating???? If none of the switch terminals are marked + or -, why should that matter.

Thanks
Howard

A puzzlement

To borrow a little bit of script from the "Tappet Brothers" -- some details about your starting procedure might help a long-distance diagnosis.

1- key on
2- hold glow plug switch in for a slow count of 12 to 15 seconds
2a - observe the amp gauge for a large amp draw while the glow plugs are energized

3- depress the starter switch button.
4- engine turns over... slowly? briskly?

*Sidebar: how did it used to start? Did it turn over much before starting up?

In general: how many hours on it? Engine Hours since starter motor overhauled?

Gotta be a reason.... not being a mechanic, noting quickly comes to mind...


Loren

If Tom Metzger doesn't see this soon, send him a private post.

And as Loren says, any issues with the starter motor? Has it been cranking slowly lately, or lagging?

thanks for the posts Christian and Loren, but previous to this incident everything was great......in warmer weather, I didn't even need to use the glow plug button; it started great. Then a couple weeks ago nothing, then left it for a while and it was fine. The day it stopped completely it even started when I went out......then when it was time to come in, nothing when I hit the start button.

hdlEric said:

Recently, my '87 34, with a Universal Diesel (M25), began not starting when I hit the start button. I replaced the starter button, the glow plug button and the keyed switch; all with quality parts from a marina.

I did mark, and take pictures of how the old switches were wired; NONE had + or - indicated. I hooked the new ones up identical to the old ones, and still NOTHING. The batteries are both putting out 12+ Volts; I have cleaned all grounds and positive terminals on the batteries, engine block and starter solenoid. I have banged on the solenoid......still nothing.

Anybody have any ideas??? I am not good with electrical problems, but have checked the voltage across the screws if the switches. Sometimes I get 12+ across them, but sometimes across the starter button I seem to get a -12V reading, but sometimes it also gives me a +12 reading......is this because I use the wrong probes on the multimeter, or am I hallucinating???? If none of the switch terminals are marked + or -, why should that matter.

Thanks
Howard

Click to expand...

On some (all?) of the Universals there is an inline fuse that runs to the solenoid. This fuse is located near the solenoid. Poke around and look in and around the wiring near the solenoid. If the fuse is blown and/or the connection messed up it seems like it could cause the problem you are describing.

In the meantime, run your eye over this. There are links to wiring diagrams:

www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?162-M25-Engine-Wiring-Upgrade-Part-1-Cockpit-Gauges

Howard,

To add a couple of comments;

My solenoid has a blade style connector. If the female half of those connectors are loose or corroded, that can be a problem.

The trailer style connectors between the engine and the instrument panel are problems and at some point, now or later, it should be removed and the wiring replaced with straight runs of wire.

The polarity of the leads on your voltmeter is certainly significant. If you reverse those leads the observed voltage will go from + to -.

Good luck

Alan,
I think I know the fuse you are talking about. The wire was hanging loose after I put the new stuff on, but I couldn't tell EXACTLY where it was attached, and did not notice it before this all started. Based upon the shape of the plastic on the female end of the spade connector(it was rounded to match a nut that held the male end of the spade connector on the Alt), I felt it was attached to the Alt, so, I connected it to that same nut. Still nothing; the fuse looks good.

I am wondering if either the fuse is bad inside where I cannot see it, or the fuse holder is damaged in some way.

Christian, I will check out that link, thanks

Thanks Alan for the info.

Keith,
I don't recall removing any wires from the voltmeter, but will check. The -12Volts occurs on my multimeter........sometimes, when I have the probes touching the starter button terminals. The voltmeter does go negative when I hit the start button.

Also, what I have noticed, is when I hit the starter button, the tach needle does move up every time I hit the button. The tach does not go to zero when the engine is off.

I have heard....may have been here....perhaps from Christian, that those trailer like connectors can be a nightmare.
thanks again,

Keith,
Actually, I am embarrassed to say, I am not sure if my boat has an ammeter or a voltmeter, I think it still has an ammeter.
Howard.

hdlEric said:

Keith,
Actually, I am embarrassed to say, I am not sure if my boat has an ammeter or a voltmeter, I think it still has an ammeter.
Howard.

Click to expand...

Don't feel bad. It's all a mystery at first...

Here is a picture of our engine panel from my blog. It might be real similar to your Universal panel.
The gauge on the left is the amp gauge. Temp gauge is on the right. Ignore the push-pull switch on the lower right --- prior owner replaced the factory key-switch with that.
Loren

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?300-Seat-Hatch-Finished-Photos

I would check to see if you get battery voltage at the starter solenoid wire with the key or start button in the start position, and the battery switch on both. Put the red lead from the meter on the small wire tab connected to the starter, and the black lead onto a clean part of the starter without paint or rust(engine ground=battery negative Black). If you have battery voltage there, and also at the large gauge wire that comes directly from the battery switch to bolt connection on the starter, you have a bad starter solenoid. if you don't have battery voltage at both places, you will have to trace the circuit to see where you loose the voltage.
The good news is I believe that the M25 is D850 Kubota engine block so a starter is $92 see http://www.amazon.com/STARTER-D850-B1-TRANSICOLD-CT4-91-TV-128000-0050/dp/B008Y3QLS0 . always look for Kubota parts, they are waaaaaay cheaper than universal parts, and perform just as well.



.

My gratitude to all who offered advice about my starting problem!!! I am happy to report I have solved the problem..........however, I am embarresed again to report it was a wire that I had connected to the Alt, when it should have been going to the solenoid:0:0:0. Even a friend who was helping initially thought it should go there. I had discovered it laying under the Alt, and the impressions of the plastic on the female part of the spade connector was deformed to match the screw holding the male end of the terminal to the Alt. I only hope I didn't hurt the Alt!!! The ammeter needle is in neutral so I think I am ok.
Regarding the question of using Kubota parts; how sure is that information???? I called one dealer near Toledo, OH and he said it was possible, but needed the serial number of the engine.

Thanks again Mates......this is a GREAT site!!!!
Howard

Howard,

That the M25 is a Kubota is a sure thing. I have seen it I.D.ed as a D850 (as it is here) and a D800, both, at various times. So the dealers advice to check the serial # is probably sound. I'm not sure where to find that serial #, though.

Keith Parcells said:

Howard,

That the M25 is a Kubota is a sure thing. I have seen it I.D.ed as a D850 (as it is here) and a D800, both, at various times. So the dealers advice to check the serial # is probably sound. I'm not sure where to find that serial #, though.

Click to expand...

Keith,
Thanks for the info. I am going to check it out today or tomorrow and let you know what I find.
Howard

with old boats, we all succumb to the temptation, from time to time to make the repair harder!
Welcome to the forum, this site is a fountain of youth for Ericson's
I use Kubota l185 parts(starter, oil and fuel filters, fan belt) for my universal 5416, without serial number questions(luck?). It sounds like the local parts store will work with you, but, I feel you won't need any other parts

Howard - Glad you solved your problem. I have couple of thoughts that might help you next time... and there is always a next time.

With a digital voltmeter measuring 12 volts DC the reading will go negative if you reverse the probes. This is not a problem if you are just looking for the presence of voltage. Not true for more sophisticated measurements, but I don't think you are there yet.

All of the original wiring in the E-34 and the Universal engines is color coded and for the engines the colors are shown on the wiring diagram in the engine manual. This can save a lot of confusion when you find a loose wire. Of course, the engine was painted after the wiring was installed so you may have to scrape a little paint off to see the color. For example, the wire I think you had loose is yellow/red... yellow with a red stripe going to the solenoid.

As far as I know the E-34 wiring diagram does not exist. The other 80s vintage boats that have manuals on this site have WDs that will give you the colors for the different wires. Or you can send me an email and I will send you a spread sheet I made up.

I had thought that all of the '87 E-34s had M-25XP engines. The M-25 and the M-25XP are different engines. On my M-25XP the serial # is on a sticker on the top of the exhaust manifold. Looking at the top of the engine you can't miss it.

The M-25 block is D-850 and the M-25XP block is D-950. I have been told that the way to get Kubota parts is to know a tractor that uses the same block. For the M-25 try a B6200 tractor and for the M-25XP try a B1750 tractor. I advise taking the old part with you when go to buy it.

Good luck.

Tom,
Thanks very much for the info!!! I believe you are correct re the M25/M25X. I haven't been back out to the boat to check the engine, but the survey listed it as a M25X. I will check soon. Take care, and Thanks again!!! This forum and your folks are a God send!!!!
Howard