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Thread: Re-bedding ports

  1. #1
    Contributing Member I
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    Re-bedding ports

    Hi forum readers,
    Anyone know where I can get the proper material to bed fixed ports inside the aluminum frames? Ilex has a few leaks around and within the ports due to the fact that she is almost 40 years old. I would like to tackle the project this spring. Got a some life-calk on hand per forum consensus but wanted to see what was recommended for outside the glass. Thanks in advance, I know this topic may be getting old old as there is lots of information about this topic on here...
    Nick

  2. #2
    Contributing Member I
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    Oh yeah...

    forgot to mention...boat is a 1976 Ericson 27.

  3. #3
    Principal Partner footrope's Avatar
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    You might want to consider a polyurethane like 3M 4200. If silicone was used, you should carefully clean that up as it leaves a slick surface that does not help new sealer do its job. Also, many forum members can recommend butyl tape. That works also, apparently.

    Try not to damage the existing gasket around the glass. They can be harder to come by on an older boat, unless someone has done this job in the past and you have more recent frames. This job is still on the list for my 1980.

    Good luck.
    Craig Davis & Ellen Le Vita

    1980 E38 "Pilot Project"
    Hull #20, Universal Diesel 5432
    Gig Harbor, WA


    In Puget Sound there are only two directions to go - North and South. That applies to the boat and the wind.

  4. #4
    Moderator Christian Williams's Avatar
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    Are we talking about the gasket holding the glass to the frame, or the bedding of the frame to the cabin bulkhead?
    Thelonious II, E381 hull 513 (1984) Universal 5432
    Table of Contents for Thelonious Blog here
    Videos: http://www.youtube.com/c/ChristianWilliamsYachting

  5. #5
    Principal Partner footrope's Avatar
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    Christian,

    If you're asking me, the polyurethane or polysulfide is for the frame to fiberglass bedding. For the glass to frame seal, the gasket is supposed to work inside the frame against the glass without any type of bedding.
    Craig Davis & Ellen Le Vita

    1980 E38 "Pilot Project"
    Hull #20, Universal Diesel 5432
    Gig Harbor, WA


    In Puget Sound there are only two directions to go - North and South. That applies to the boat and the wind.

  6. #6
    Contributing Member I
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    Thanks guys

    Footrope,
    Yeah I was considering something like 4200 (anything but 5200!) for re-bedding the frames, the thanks for the input, looks like there was some kind of butyl tape. I suspect the leak between the glass and the frame, as one of the screws in the frame (below the glass but above the bottom of the frame) shows some suspicious indicators.

    Christian,
    I was wondering exactly about the gasket between the window and the frame...any thoughts on a modern material that would be a good fit for my ports? I would like to re-bed the windows inside the frames AND re-bed the frames to the fiberglass.
    Last edited by Nmeyersailor; 03-24-2015 at 11:35 PM.

  7. #7
    Moderator Christian Williams's Avatar
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    I asked because on the matter of the gasket, there are threads here that recommend taking the fixed port lights to an auto shop for gasket replacement. The idea being that the gasket is a common auto part, and they can do it easily. I can't find the thread at the moment, but it's worth searching (and confirming my memory) for if gasket is an issue.

    I like LIfe Calk myself for port bedding, and to me it's even easier than butyl tape. Butyl tape oozes for a long time, and I regret using it for large surfaces and now confine it to smaller things like deck hardware, screws and so on.

    Here is Maine Sail on the topic of bedding ports, from another thread:

    Consider the future. Nothing is permanent on a boat so when an item also has a mechanical seal I look for the lowest possible adhesion & longest flexible life. 3M 101 or butyl would be my choices. Polysulfide handles UV better than polyurethane and the jury is still out on polyethers like UV 4000. I have had UV 4000 yellow in one season.

    Some like Life Calk which is another polysulfide but I personally have not found it to not hold up quite as well as 3M 101.

    3M UV 4000
    = 300 PSI per sq inch adhesion (polyether)
    3M 4200 = 300 PSI per sq inch adhesion (polyurethane)
    3M 101 = 139 PSI per sq inch adhesion (polysulfide)
    Butyl Tape = 10-20 PSI per sq inch adhesion (butyl rubber)



    Originally Posted by Lyle
    The March 2009 Sail Magazine on page 61 recommended for lexan professional glass bedding products:

    GE Silpruf SCS2000

    Dow 795 Silicone Building Sealant





    Not just sail magazine that recommends those products. I believe they consulted Tony D'Andrea of Select Plastics who owns the worlds largest hatch repair & warranty facility.

    Dow 795 is the most widely used product for bedding cast acrylic, what should be used in most marine applications, and polycarbonate/Lexan, what should not be used in most marine applications.

    This however is not what should generally be used for sealing aluminum port frames to gelcoat. The 795 or GE SilPruf are used for direct bonding of acrylic or polycarbonate directly to gelcoat or directly to a frame then the frames are sealed with something else.

    Some port manufacturers such as Bomon, not to be confused with Bomar, use neoprene foam weather stripping to make the seal. These neoprene gaskets have very little, if any, "bond" or PSI strength yet stay dry for a long time. New Found Metals recommends butyl too..

    This is not to say you can't use a silicone for a frame to hull bond but future repairs will become very difficult due to silicone contamination and the next bond may not bond at all..


    Last edited by Maine Sail; 06-30-2009 at 058 AM.
    Thelonious II, E381 hull 513 (1984) Universal 5432
    Table of Contents for Thelonious Blog here
    Videos: http://www.youtube.com/c/ChristianWilliamsYachting

  8. #8
    Principal Partner Alan Gomes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Williams View Post
    I asked because on the matter of the gasket, there are threads here that recommend taking the fixed port lights to an auto shop for gasket replacement. The idea being that the gasket is a common auto part, and they can do it easily. I can't find the thread at the moment, but it's worth searching (and confirming my memory) for if gasket is an issue.

    I like LIfe Calk myself for port bedding, and to me it's even easier than butyl tape. Butyl tape oozes for a long time, and I regret using it for large surfaces and now confine it to smaller things like deck hardware, screws and so on.

    Here is Maine Sail on the topic of bedding ports, from another thread:

    Consider the future. Nothing is permanent on a boat so when an item also has a mechanical seal I look for the lowest possible adhesion & longest flexible life. 3M 101 or butyl would be my choices. Polysulfide handles UV better than polyurethane and the jury is still out on polyethers like UV 4000. I have had UV 4000 yellow in one season.

    Some like Life Calk which is another polysulfide but I personally have not found it to not hold up quite as well as 3M 101.

    3M UV 4000
    = 300 PSI per sq inch adhesion (polyether)
    3M 4200 = 300 PSI per sq inch adhesion (polyurethane)
    3M 101 = 139 PSI per sq inch adhesion (polysulfide)
    Butyl Tape = 10-20 PSI per sq inch adhesion (butyl rubber)



    Originally Posted by Lyle
    The March 2009 Sail Magazine on page 61 recommended for lexan professional glass bedding products:

    GE Silpruf SCS2000

    Dow 795 Silicone Building Sealant





    Not just sail magazine that recommends those products. I believe they consulted Tony D'Andrea of Select Plastics who owns the worlds largest hatch repair & warranty facility.

    Dow 795 is the most widely used product for bedding cast acrylic, what should be used in most marine applications, and polycarbonate/Lexan, what should not be used in most marine applications.

    This however is not what should generally be used for sealing aluminum port frames to gelcoat. The 795 or GE SilPruf are used for direct bonding of acrylic or polycarbonate directly to gelcoat or directly to a frame then the frames are sealed with something else.

    Some port manufacturers such as Bomon, not to be confused with Bomar, use neoprene foam weather stripping to make the seal. These neoprene gaskets have very little, if any, "bond" or PSI strength yet stay dry for a long time. New Found Metals recommends butyl too..

    This is not to say you can't use a silicone for a frame to hull bond but future repairs will become very difficult due to silicone contamination and the next bond may not bond at all..


    Last edited by Maine Sail; 06-30-2009 at 058 AM.
    I used to use 3M-101 but I thought they discontinued it. At least I haven't seen it on the shelves for quite some time. So I switched to Lifecaulk as the closest alternative. (Before hitting "submit reply," I just Googled this and on the Jamestown site they claim it is discontinued.)

  9. #9
    Contributing Member I
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    Great advice

    Thanks guys for the sound advice. I think I'll bring the windows to a local auto glass shop then re-bed with Life-calk. I appreciate all the info.
    Nick

  10. #10
    Sustaining Partner mkollerjr's Avatar
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    ...I seem to remember speaking with someone who does auto glass, and he said they typically use Sikaflex.

    http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...FQERaQodHFYA6g

    Mark
    Former owner of a 1990 Ericson 38

  11. #11
    Sustaining Member TS Farley's Avatar
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    Bad experience with auto glass port light sealing

    Hi,
    I had my port lights resealed by an auto glass place last year, without replacing the gaskets, which were old, stiff and cracked. I couldn't find any new replacement gaskets. Unfortunately the sealant just pulled away from the frames making for a wet summer up the coast.
    I belately discovered that Catalina produces gaskets that fit the Ericson port lights. They sell them in a kit.

    catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1055&ParentCat=376

    The port lights are back in with butyl tape and are water-tight now. Cedar strips covered in epoxy as spacers between the two layers of fiberglass decrease the flex and theoretically would help maintain the frame to fiberglass seal no matter what type of sealant is used.

    Vivian Morrow
    British Columbia
    1975 Ericson 35 MK II #397
    s/v TS Farley

  12. #12
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    +1 on the Catalina Direct gasket kit.

    I replaced all the gaskets and rebed the frames with butyl tape and I haven't had a leak since. The frames were originally bed to the hull using closed cell foam tape which has certainly compressed and become useless by now. The previous owner was very liberal with silicone caulking around every port light and chain plate and still there were massive leaks. The job was a pain but well worth the effort.
    1972 E27 "Patriot"
    HIN - ERY269
    Marina del Rey, California

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    Kit

    thanks Vivian, I just bookmarked that source. Only have 1 out and that's the one with the issue, although they are all pretty old and dry now. The other issue is one of the PO used 5200 to seal the window frames to the opening. Ugh what a job getting that one out. Very hard to do without bending all hell out of the frame.

  14. #14
    Sustaining Member TS Farley's Avatar
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    That is very unfortunate indeed. My port aft light, which is over the radios and e-panel, was installed with cement-like substance, likely 5200 as well. I ended up leaving that one in as it was actually not leaking. I was planning to obtain a used one on-line to have on hand before having another go at removing it. Other more pressing projects have delayed that.

    I replaced the smaller lights with Becksons opening port lights and the difference in being able to let in the fresh air is wonderful. The rough openings are the same with just cuts required for the gutters. I got the ones with the deep rain-return drains on the advice of a friend and there is no pooling of water that would run inside on opening. Plastic awnings are also available but I was pretty sure they would end up getting kicked off in the frantic dashes fore and aft. In installing the Becksons, it was a bit of a delicate operation to countersink the bolts without going all the way through the thin outer fbg layer of the deck. Cedar strips, as I mentioned, helped with that as well as decreasing the flex for a better fbg to port frame seal.

    I decided to go with restoring the original port lights because all the new ones, although better designed, had wider frames and it would mean losing a significant area of glazing. I had the original frames powder coated off-white to match the new Beckson's.

    Good luck with the 5200.

    Vivian Morrow
    British Columbia
    1975 Ericson 35 MK II #397
    s/v TS Farley

  15. #15
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    Port Lights and Rebedding

    [QUOTE=TS Farley;91643]That is very unfortunate indeed. My port aft light, which is over the radios and e-panel, was installed with cement-like substance, likely 5200 as well. I ended up leaving that one in as it was actually not leaking. I was planning to obtain a used one on-line to have on hand before having another go at removing it. Other more pressing projects have delayed that.


    My 1971 Ericson's ports where all removed and re-bedded with 3M Silicone. This stuff works really well when you can squeeze between the boat and the frame.


    For the degrading rubber around each piece of glass with the port light... I use Capt' Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure to find the leaks and seal them. It was a really cheap fix that worked well.
    Rick+
    Pax et Bene
    Rick e29

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