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Atomic 4 Questions/Advice

Cajunspike

Member II
If the 27 is like the 29 there is no room for the hand crank to make a full turn to start the motor.

If you were to decide to remove the A4 let me know I would like to have one to rebuild and swap out the one in Rumkin that is in need of a rebuild. I just don't want to be without a motor for the time it will take me to rebuild.

Engine access on a 27 from the front is excellent, to answer the doubt.
I've had the hand crank on it just to try, not actually spinning the motor over.
72A4engine.jpg
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
CAUTION!! When hand cranking any engine!

1971 E27 with original A4.

I was told these were originally Willys Jeep WW2 engines??

Also, it has a crank on the front of it?? Does that mean it can be started without a battery??

The one I have is in great condition. Anything special I need to know about these things for short 1-3 day cruising?

I plan to replace with diesel one day but if I don't have too yet I would rather spend money on paint and electronics.

CAUTION!!! (Learned this in the 50's from my uncles who were farmers when tractors were often crank started.)

...IF... you decide to hand crank any engine so equipped with that ability - BE SURE to place your thumb on the same side of the crank handle as your fingers!!

The starting of the engine with a crank handle can make the handle suddenly take off and if your thumb is on the wrong side, the crank can easily break bones!!!!
:esad:
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
CAUTION!!! (Learned this in the 50's from my uncles who were farmers when tractors were often crank started.)

...IF... you decide to hand crank any engine so equipped with that ability - BE SURE to place your thumb on the same side of the crank handle as your fingers!!

The starting of the engine with a crank handle can make the handle suddenly take off and if your thumb is on the wrong side, the crank can easily break bones!!!!
:esad:

Excellent Point.
Way back in my college days I owned a cheap and rather clapped out TR-3. I actually did try the hand crank once and recall that it did not quite start. It was me, not the car. I recall those warnings, also. :)
One summer day I was out in the foothills and the clutch hydraulics failed me.... but I was able to do a run-and-bump down a small grade on a gravel road and drove it about 30 miles home.
Only "sports car" I have ever owned, and repairing the rusted out floor was interesting.... and it was a great experience.

With a tad more wisdom gained I next bought a used 544 Volvo, and enjoyed the wonders of Reliability.
"Good Old Days!"
:rolleyes:
 
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kapnkd

kapnkd
Excellent Point.
Way back in my college days I owned a cheap and rather clapped out TR-3. I actually did try the hand crank once and recall that it did not quite start. It was me, not the car. I recall those warnings, also. :)
One summer day I was out in the foothills and the clutch hydraulics failed me.... but I was able to do a run-and-bump down a small grade on a gravel road and drove it about 30 miles home.
Only "sports car" I have ever owned, and repairing the rusted out floor was interesting.... and it was a great experience.

With a tad more wisdom gained I next bought a used 544 Volvo, and enjoyed the wonders of Reliability.
"Good Old Days!"
:rolleyes:

Hi Loren,

Bet we could really swap some stories of sailing and cars!! ...I had a '61 Sunbeam Alpine that also had a crank start feature and came with a handle. ...I used it a few times just for fun and it worked great.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
I had a friend who broke his arm hand cranking a small Volvo on SF Bay. A spot of grease on the end of the crank arm and the thumb positioned as Kapnad suggests. The engine caught and spun the crank around. It didn't kick out of the flywheel.

Don't hand crank unless absolutely necessary as it's hard to sail off with a broken arm.
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
I had a friend who broke his arm hand cranking a small Volvo on SF Bay. A spot of grease on the end of the crank arm and the thumb positioned as Kapnad suggests. The engine caught and spun the crank around. It didn't kick out of the flywheel.

Don't hand crank unless absolutely necessary as it's hard to sail off with a broken arm.

Yep!! ....Same principle as castrating camels using two bricks! ...Ya gotta keep your fingers from between the bricks!! ;-)))
 

frick

Member III
A 4 Basket case

My 36 year old A4 is now a basket case. I pulled the engine when the valve guides rusted so tight that the engine would not turn over.
I think I had a sand pit in the head which was atomizing sea water into around the 3rd cylinder.

At Twice the price of a rebuild, I put in a Yanmar 2GM20F, a new shaft and prop. That was 14 years ago and the Diesel is wonderful.
Best upgrade I made.

Rick+
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
My 36 year old A4 is now a basket case. I pulled the engine when the valve guides rusted so tight that the engine would not turn over.
I think I had a sand pit in the head which was atomizing sea water into around the 3rd cylinder.

At Twice the price of a rebuild, I put in a Yanmar 2GM20F, a new shaft and prop. That was 14 years ago and the Diesel is wonderful.
Best upgrade I made.

Rick+

In '91 I too replaced my dying A-4 with a Westerbeke 2 cyl. 18 hp. A bit more noisy but was pleasantly surprised with it as far as vibration and noise. (Not near as bad as I thought it would be or had been told.)

Like for you, my Westerbeke is still going strong with no problems.

Best part for me with our E32-II - it fit right in to the original mounts with no modifications other than flipping two of the mounts upside down to accommodate the engine bed angle.

Also, the dealer talked me out of the more expensive 3 cylinder model saying it wasn't needed and the 2 cylinder would handle the load easily. ...RARE to see a dealer turn down a chance to make more money!!
 

Kevin A Wright

Member III
I can supply the horror story of the A4. When I purchased my E27 it had an A4 in it. Admittedly on it's lasts legs and needing a major rebuild but I figured I could nurse it along for a season until I was sure the E27 was right for me. I got the season out of and was starting to think of the rebuild when I came down to the boat on a nice hot day and found the carb floats had become saturated and the fuel stopcock was worn enough to let gas pass through even when shut off. There was about a quart of gas in the bilge and another quart vaporized in the cabin from the smell of it. Luckily I don't smoke or wear a nylon windbreaker or anything and was able to ventilate the boat safely and fix the problem. Took awhile to clean my shorts tho.

I decided the best thing was to buy a brand new Perkins M25 3 cyl diesel and install it (with all the changes needed in shaft, prop, fuel lines, control lines, etc.) A lot more money upfront, but I had 20+ years of absolutely carefree service from that engine before I sold the boat 4 years ago. And it's still going strong as far as I know.

One big advantage of the diesel was cruising range. The A4 gulped down a gallon an hour while cruising. The Perkins a quart. I would basically fill the 15 gallon tank once per year whether I needed to or not.

Now if your A4 is in good shape I wouldn't consider changing it out. Or if your sailing years are not going to be long enough to make it 'pay out'. They are tough little engines and dirt simple to work on. But if you have a longer horizon and need to change or rebuild anyway, I'd take a serious look at diesel.

Kevin Wright
s/v Hydro Therapy
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
> I can supply the horror story of the A4. When I purchased my E27 it had an A4 in it. Admittedly on it's lasts legs and needing a major rebuild

Sounds like a horror story of deferred maintenance. A diesel with systems that have been neglected can set a boat afire in a thousand ways too. A brand new A4 carb is $320 and can be installed by a schmuck with a crescent wrench in half an hour (I know, because I have been that schmuck). A rebuild kit costs $100. A new float is $20.
 

garryh

Member III
my first thought too tenders. Gasoline can be very dangerous if you let if drain into your bilge!
There are issues with gasoline engines so care and maintenance is critical.
I love my A4... runs quietly and smoothly and I am far from a mechanic but can fix pretty well anything on it.
 

DeFranco84

Member I
Also looking for A4 advice!

Hi all. My name is Kevin. I live In San Francisco. I grew up land locked on the east coast and always dreamed of learning to sail. This year i decided to turn my dream to reality. After lots of saving I purchased a 1975 Ericson MKII. Heres the backstory: So this is my first boat. I found her on craigslist. I was recommended a mobile mechanic who i contacted and came with me to inspect the boat. So cosmetically she is pristine and everything looked amazing. We went to start the Atomic four engine and it would not turn over. It cranks and sounds like its about to start but does not turn over. The owner Said he hadnt started it since last september and was going to put a new electric fuel pump in it which he had ordered and would throw in for free with the boat. I looked to the mechanic who agreed and said once we put that fuel pump in it should fire right up and that I had a good deal hear and should go for it and he will put in the pump for me and get her started. I listened and bought the boat for 15k which i had been saving for 2 years. So a few days later the mechanic comes and puts in the new electric fuel pump and drumrolllll. NOTHING. the engine does not turn over. He says "Oh no problem it just needs a set of points order them from moyer and I ll put them in and she will fire up" I order the points a few days later he puts them in and NOTHING. Does not turn over. He now comes back a third time and starts it right up by spraying Quick start starter fluid into the carb. It runs on the ether for a few seconds then shuts down. Mechanic said "you are probably out of gas" I put 5 gallons in and nothing. I fire this mechanic and call another. He comes on the boat and within 5 min by sight alone says I could use a new head gasket, studs, manifold, oil pressure switch plugs and oil. (did not do compression test or any test) Each mechanic refused to follow the Atomic four unexpected shutdown checklist that Ken at moyer sent me because "they didn't need it". I feel like a real schmuck for not doing enough research. Every single mechanic ive called in the bay area said they will not work on A4 s and that I should save my money and repower it or get a new boat with a diesel. List marine said they would take a look as well as SF boat works but both said I would have to get it towed to there yard which was quoted as 1000 bucks. Im feeling really overwhelmed and discouraged about my new purchase. Its sitting in the slip. Stuck. Noone will work on this engine and I got quoted at 20-25 k to repower it with diesel. Well more than I paid for the boat or its value. I have dreams of starting with coastal cruises to the farrolones , half moon bay and santa cruz and one day single handing to Hawaii like sir Christian Williams in Thelonius. (he is such an inspiration, just finished philosophy of sailing). What should I do? Any advice? Is it true what the mechanics say? Should I ditch this ancient Atomic bomb engine and eat the cost of a repower eventually? I mean this A4 fired up with starter fluid so im guessing its a fuel issue and just getting it to run on the gas is the solution, but now im just bummed in the long run from all the research ive done on the A4 now and seeing how no one will work on it and now I feel stuck. HELP.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
Your first mechanic is smarter than your second one, but maybe not smart enough. What you’ve done so far is probably prudent maintenance regardless of what the actual problem is. If it ran on ether for a while then your problem is indeed gas, but whether it’s the gas in the tank, or the fuel pump, or the carb remains to be seen. That’s a short list - clearly you have spark and compression, so that’s very good news. The place to get help is the Moyer forums, but from the sound of things you are decades away from needing to repower.
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
Defranco84,
Sailing on a beer budget, and "I don't like beer", means that you will/must do a lot of the work yourself. Which means you will learn a lot and be an asset to yourself when things go wrong when you are out on the bay. And they will go wrong eventually.
This is your opportunity for personal growth! My recommendation. Read a lot, YouTube it! Talk to knowledgeable people (remember the ones who were right), make new friends who are mechanically inclined (especially boat wise). Enjoy the journey. :nerd:
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Engines and Choices and Advice, Oh My

On this and your related thread here you are getting good advice. Real. Good. Advice.

Having never owned an inboard gasoline auxiliary, I have no helpful words...

But, regarding the "siren song" of being attracted to changing to a diesel, I might have a thought or two. If you read my blog here you will see that last year I removed my '88 model Universal diesel and replaced it with a new engine. Investing (oops, wrong word!) about 15K total in this project made sense for us because we have owned this boat since 1994, and have no immediate plans to sell it.
I had to learn basic engine trouble shooting very early on, but have never become more than an opinionated parts changer. :rolleyes: I do all of my routine maintenance.

About the allure of that 'siren song'..... you will, in moments of stress, wander across used small diesels for sale. Most anything at about 20 hp to about 25 hp will do the job. You might find one that appears to have a lot of life left in it, and, after going thru the whole install gauntlet of new beds, new fuel system, new instrument panel, and probably replacing a bunch of electrical stuff "while you are there", you will end up with an engine that only burns about a quart of lube oil a season, and only has a few leaks and blow-by residue.

(That is a quick description of the fine-running 23 hp engine I removed. I could have sold it for a quick 1K, but instead gave to a friend who is rebuilding it to repower another boat. And then there is the problem sorting out the used engines by reputation and modern-day parts availability. :0

So, hang in there and keep us posted.

In the dept of "unsolicited advice" I would also say that over the years I have received invaluable help from the other sailors in my yacht club. If you are not a YC member, you might want to check around for a club geared to DIY owners. (i.e. not just focused on the blazer-and-slacks crowd.) :rolleyes:
When I want a low-price burger and a beer, I use our little club's reciprocal privileges and dine at the much larger and wealthier yacht club down the road! :) They have a commercial kitchen and a bar.... we, OTOH, have zero paid employees, and no bar. We do, OTOH, have boat builders and mechanics.....
 
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supersailor

Contributing Partner
The Atomic 4 is one of the simplest engines to repair anywhere. "Mechanics?" who claim otherwise either don't have any desire to work on a boat (cramped spaces) or don't have a clue what they are doing. The bargain guys are actually quite costly.

Your problem sounds like fuel contamination. This is a common problem including diesels. Any fuel that has eathanol in it. (your gas station) should be throwen out after three or so months. The ethanol separates out and settles to the bottom of the tank. In effect, it is water and it is sucked into the carburetor. Water is not a fuel so the engine doesn't start. Ethanol laced fuel should never be fed to a carbureted engine The ethanol plugs the passages in the carb and the engine won't run. Check at the marina and see if the fuel is ethanol free. If not, don't use it and complain to the management. The other way water gets into the fuel is through condensation. Hot cold cycles turn water vapor into water which settles to the bottom of the tank. Also, check the fuel filter to see if it is clogged. It should be changed/cleaned every year. The fuel pump can be checked by removing the fuel line at the carb and turning the ignition to the on position for a moment. Fuel should spurt out.

After trying to start the engine, pull a spark plug. You should smell gas on the tip of it. If not, the gas is not reaching the engine. The repairs are simple. The tank probably needs to be cleaned. The process is called fuel polishing. The carb probably needs cleaning or rebuild. Simple with an A4. All these things should be expected with an older boat (or lawn mower for that matter).

Trump has just announced that the ethanol content of regular gas is being raised to 15%. This makes corn farmers incredibly happy which makes corn belt senators happy but it should anger the rest of us. The ethanol laced fuel has already destroyed thousands of engines and the 15% fuel will destroy many thousands more.

It behooves anyone Who sails to learn a little about common engine problems. On a boat, you can't just pull off the road and flag down a cop! Most things can be jury rigged to get you home.

Good luck with the new boat.
 

debonAir

Member III
I've fixed the A4-not-running issue a bunch of times for different reasons on other boats

It is very likely you have a fuel problem as said. Here are the steps I'd take

1 - Fuel filter - make sure there's gas in it, and it's not dirty. Replace it if it doesn't look new.

2 - Carb cleanout - this is a lot simpler than you think. pull the carb off the engine, take off the float bowl and spray carb cleaner in it. While off, maybe take a fine wire, like a strand of multi-strand copper wire, and poke it through the carb jets. You might have to take the jets out to do this. Be careful of all the small parts. Spray all of the carb with a lot of carb cleaner, even soak it overnight and replace.

3 - Clean gas. How long was the gas sitting in the tank before you bought here? Gas lasts about a year these days (6 months even I've read, but my experience says about a year) before it loses a lot of its go power. Ethanol in marine gas also has a number of issues, a lot of which are caused by water absorption, and water sinking to the bottom of your tank. pump out the first 1/2 quart of gas from the fuel line to the carb into a clear jar you can remove from the boat. Let it sit for day and see if there is any sediment/dirt on the bottom and if there is a line in it between clear/water and yellow/gas. clear on the bottom.

If it runs on starter fluid but dies, then start it again and try the choke (pull the lever that closes the plate on the carb) and see if the engine keeps running like that. If so, you're carb is fuel starved. If not, your not getting any fuel. In the first case, I'd suspect the float valve. Cleaning should have fixed it, but sometimes the float gets stuck closed. After running, if you can, remove just the carb float bowl cup. It should be half full of fresh gas. If not, check why the fuel line to the carb isn't supplying gas. It could be as simple as a shut-off valve in the line you didn't know about. You should be able to get gas to drip out of the fuel line with just the ignition on if your fuel pump works (its low pressure low flow to get the gas up from the tank into the carb, and the float in the carb floats up in the gas shutting a valve that stops more gas from coming into the carb). Of course, be careful with all this gas and make sure it alwasy has a place to go that isn't the bilge and all your hatches are open and there's a breeze.

I would not recommend swapping a decent A4 for a diesel unless someone gave you a new or low-hour diesel for free that also happens to fit your bed without mods, and even then, if you have someone do the work for free too.

Keep us posted on your progress!
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
Hi all. My name is Kevin. I live In San Francisco. I grew up land locked on the east coast and always dreamed of learning to sail. This year i decided to turn my dream to reality. After lots of saving I purchased a 1975 Ericson MKII. Heres the backstory: So this is my first boat. I found her on craigslist. I was recommended a mobile mechanic who i contacted and came with me to inspect the boat. So cosmetically she is pristine and everything looked amazing. We went to start the Atomic four engine and it would not turn over. It cranks and sounds like its about to start but does not turn over. The owner Said he hadnt started it since last september and was going to put a new electric fuel pump in it which he had ordered and would throw in for free with the boat. I looked to the mechanic who agreed and said once we put that fuel pump in it should fire right up and that I had a good deal hear and should go for it and he will put in the pump for me and get her started. I listened and bought the boat for 15k which i had been saving for 2 years. So a few days later the mechanic comes and puts in the new electric fuel pump and drumrolllll. NOTHING. the engine does not turn over. He says "Oh no problem it just needs a set of points order them from moyer and I ll put them in and she will fire up" I order the points a few days later he puts them in and NOTHING. Does not turn over. He now comes back a third time and starts it right up by spraying Quick start starter fluid into the carb. It runs on the ether for a few seconds then shuts down. Mechanic said "you are probably out of gas" I put 5 gallons in and nothing. I fire this mechanic and call another. He comes on the boat and within 5 min by sight alone says I could use a new head gasket, studs, manifold, oil pressure switch plugs and oil. (did not do compression test or any test) Each mechanic refused to follow the Atomic four unexpected shutdown checklist that Ken at moyer sent me because "they didn't need it". I feel like a real schmuck for not doing enough research. Every single mechanic ive called in the bay area said they will not work on A4 s and that I should save my money and repower it or get a new boat with a diesel. List marine said they would take a look as well as SF boat works but both said I would have to get it towed to there yard which was quoted as 1000 bucks. Im feeling really overwhelmed and discouraged about my new purchase. Its sitting in the slip. Stuck. Noone will work on this engine and I got quoted at 20-25 k to repower it with diesel. Well more than I paid for the boat or its value. I have dreams of starting with coastal cruises to the farrolones , half moon bay and santa cruz and one day single handing to Hawaii like sir Christian Williams in Thelonius. (he is such an inspiration, just finished philosophy of sailing). What should I do? Any advice? Is it true what the mechanics say? Should I ditch this ancient Atomic bomb engine and eat the cost of a repower eventually? I mean this A4 fired up with starter fluid so im guessing its a fuel issue and just getting it to run on the gas is the solution, but now im just bummed in the long run from all the research ive done on the A4 now and seeing how no one will work on it and now I feel stuck. HELP.

The Atomic 4 is a straight forward, hard working dependable engine as a rule. I replaced our worn out '73 A-4 (due to raw salt water cooling) in '91 with a diesel but still remember a lot more than I want to about working on it.

Given you DO have spark, it fires and then runs for a short bit with the ether - it DOES sound more like a problem of not getting the fuel from your tank properly.

Sailboats stir the tanks with their motion and especially heeling. Fuel tanks on boats are more subject to getting sediment in the bottom than as with cars. (Marinas are a constant problem for clean fuel as well.) Water condensation plus just being around the salt water environment is tough on fuel tanks. Do you know if you still have the original tank or not? The factory tank on my '73 was galvanized steel. It lasted about 5 or 6 years and rusted through the bottom due to salt water coming up through the rudder seal and passing under the tank to the bilge.

I replaced it with a thicker gauge custom made aluminum tank using the old tank dimensions. ...Still that tank too was/is subject to yuk (debris) collecting in the bottom which would jam up the carburetor on the A-4, in spite of an added external fuel/water filter. (Usually at the VERY WORST time when running.) The carb on the A-4 is easy to work on for a rebuild if needed but often the potential debris can be cleaned out without a rebuild. I used to buy my rebuild kits from NAPA for the best prices back in the day.

You may want to pull the tank out for a good cleaning - sounds worse than it is to actually do. Side panel in the lazarrete comes out and the tank should pass up and out that area. (Again,not sure which size Ericson you have and - obviously - you want the tank empty to do this.)

Easiest to go through the carb first, see how it does then and if you still have problems - clean the tank. As someone above said about the "Beer Budget" making you a DIY boater - I've been in that category ever since I've been boating. Better that way as when your out and something goes wrong - you can fix it faster knowing your own boat better.

Good luck!!!
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
I forgot to mention that you can buy ethanel free fuel in most towns to use in your boats, lawn equipment, and older cars. In our little berg, it is sold at the marina and at Masco Petroleum. Just ask around.
 

garryh

Member III
hi Kevin... sorry about your luck and I feel your pain! And your mechanics were idiots; incompetent or disinterested or both.
The above advice is all good- these are tough and very simple engines. Just learn what you need to learn and be self-sufficient. If I can do it, anyone can!
I spent an ENTIRE summer a few years ago working on my A4, trouble shooting, by passing every single component, swapping components from other working A4's... there was nothing I did not do.... had FOUR mechanics look at it as well. Never did get it running and was eventually scrapped; turned out that one of the cylinder walls had worn through.
But- I digress. With these engines, the mantra is 'fuel, compression, spark'... barring any internal mechanical issues, if you have those three elements, the engine HAS TO run. Since it fired on ether, you have (enough) compression and spark... so it is fuel. Either faulty fuel pump, carb or bad gas. If it has been sitting and the fuel was not treated, the carb may have gummed up. Very easy to take it off, spray it with carb cleaner and remove and clean the jets (and make sure float is working properly). It is possible you may need a rebuild kit but hopefully not. Be careful with the gasket, or replace. Regarding the actual fuel, you might have a lot of grunge or water in the bottom of the tank near the pick up. I rigged a copper tube with a hose passed down through one of the main drains and siphoned the tank dry every couple of years or so... always a bit of water (probably O ring at the fill). To troubleshoot this in the meantime, unhook the fuel supply to the engine, get a can of good gas with the correct size hose and feed the fuel pump with good gas and see what happens.
And as mentioned above, source out non-ethanol gasoline for this engine. Keep at it... all good experience ; )
 
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