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Ericson 23' Main Sheet

dan.utinske

Member I
I motored out of the marina in blustery winds 10 - 15KTS. Turned her into the wind and raised the main sheet - I never felt that the main was properly raised and I could never really the sail trim. I think I was running out of airspeed, altitude and ideas all at once. I sailed for probably 45 minutes and called it a day because I just never found proper trim. I'm a relatively new sailor and probably missed a step plus I was sailing alone so not much time to explore.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated11

Ericson 23'

Dan
Gig Harbor, WA
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Well, we'll need a little more info to help.

Did the main go all the way up, so no scallops between the sail slugs (that is, the sail appeared smooth and under high halyard tension)?

If you have a topping lift or a hook on the backstay to support the boom when the sail is down, was that slack or off?

Were you using the jib?

Try to describe for us the specific trimming or control issues, as opposed to what you were expecting on each point of sail.

10-15 knots is a nice breeze, not usually overpowering. Was it possibly gusting more than that? How was the sea state, rough? Lots of whitecaps or just whitecaps?
 

dan.utinske

Member I
Did the main go all the way up, so no scallops between the sail slugs (that is, the sail appeared smooth and under high halyard tension)? I believe the main was all the way up, tension was tight and slack was off on Cunningham and traveler. Sail did appear smooth but not as aerodynamic as I've seen before.

If you have a topping lift or a hook on the backstay to support the boom when the sail is down, was that slack or off? Slack was off (I think).

Were you using the jib? Initially yes but after @ 20 min of trying to get it trimmed I dropped it. I never was able to get the jib set correctly because I could get the main to stop flapping like a flag. Was very frustrating and I know it was how I sheeted the main, or at least I think it was.

Try to describe for us the specific trimming or control issues, as opposed to what you were expecting on each point of sail. Regardless of how I "sailed" the boat I could not get the main sheet clean - It was flapping regardless of direction of the wind - reaching or running.

10-15 knots is a nice breeze, not usually overpowering. Was it possibly gusting more than that? How was the sea state, rough? Lots of whitecaps or just whitecaps? Wind was solid 15KTS, some gust but smooth easily visible on the water, with strong white caps and some swells. I didn't feel over-powered, boat never healed which given the force of the wind was expected. Frustrated the heck out of me, was like a duck out of water.

As a 30+ year hang glider pilot, wind surfer, and paraglider pilot I'm well aware of the wind but in this case think my mind must have taken a break.. hope this helps.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
You need to get your weight forward in the control bar and keep your feet on the inside of the turn:).

Seriously, it sounds like a topping lift that was not slacked off all the way. That's the only thing I can think of that would make the mainsail untrimable.

The topping lift has to be loose when sailing. Usually when it is adjusted to keep the boom high when in the slip, it is much too short for sailing. Once the sail is up, time to loosen the topping lift so the sail--not the topping lift--gets trimmed when you haul in the main sheet (the rope).

Retighten the TL before lowering the mainsail so the boom doesn't fall on your head.

Do you have a roller furling jib? Either furling or hanked, the jib leads become important when there's wind. The jib leads control the angle of the jib sheet (the rope) as it pulls on the jib sail, and if the angle is wrong either the back end of the jib or the bottom of it flaps and the sail won't set well.

Hope this helps.
 

dan.utinske

Member I
Thanks

I'm sure you identified the cause.. I looked up what you recommended and it described exactly how the sail was acting. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Regards,

Dan

You need to get your weight forward in the control bar and keep your feet on the inside of the turn:).

Seriously, it sounds like a topping lift that was not slacked off all the way. That's the only thing I can think of that would make the mainsail untrimable.

The topping lift has to be loose when sailing. Usually when it is adjusted to keep the boom high when in the slip, it is much too short for sailing. Once the sail is up, time to loosen the topping lift so the sail--not the topping lift--gets trimmed when you haul in the main sheet (the rope).

Retighten the TL before lowering the mainsail so the boom doesn't fall on your head.

Do you have a roller furling jib? Either furling or hanked, the jib leads become important when there's wind. The jib leads control the angle of the jib sheet (the rope) as it pulls on the jib sail, and if the angle is wrong either the back end of the jib or the bottom of it flaps and the sail won't set well.

Hope this helps.
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
You may have also needed a little tug on the leech line, especialy if your main sail is a bit on the older side.
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Dan,

I think Christian hit the nail on the head with the topping lift or boom end pigtail. That's the only thing I can think of that would have the main flapping at all points of sail.

Personally I do not like topping lifts and prefer a rigid vang or more appropriately for your boat a BoomKicker http://www.boomkicker.com/ Do you have a soft vang between your boom and the mast step (bottom of the mast)? I tried to find a good photo of the BoomKicker on my old E23 (MK1) but couldn't - here is a photo of Lotus Flower's (E27) BoomKicker. And I am more in favor of pushing out ;-).
 

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Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Shelman,

I think it is a model 800. The link to the BoomKicker website in my post above has some good info for selecting an appropriate unit for your boat.
 

dan.utinske

Member I
Ericson 23' Photo

This photo was taken this last summer under sail.. obviously. :) Please remember I'm relatively new sailor. See bottom of main, think I'm doing something wrong here. It did however do quite nicely but I'd like it to be as close to perfect as possible.

Hi Dan,

I think Christian hit the nail on the head with the topping lift or boom end pigtail. That's the only thing I can think of that would have the main flapping at all points of sail.

Personally I do not like topping lifts and prefer a rigid vang or more appropriately for your boat a BoomKicker http://www.boomkicker.com/ Do you have a soft vang between your boom and the mast step (bottom of the mast)? I tried to find a good photo of the BoomKicker on my old E23 (MK1) but couldn't - here is a photo of Lotus Flower's (E27) BoomKicker. And I am more in favor of pushing out ;-).
 

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dan.utinske

Member I
Better Photo Of Bottom of Main

Maybe a better shot of the luff side of the main.IMG_2166.jpg


This photo was taken this last summer under sail.. obviously. :) Please remember I'm relatively new sailor. See bottom of main, think I'm doing something wrong here. It did however do quite nicely but I'd like it to be as close to perfect as possible.
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Dan,

Is the line with the blue tracer your cunningham? It seems to be connected to the first reef on the mainsail. I'm guessing it this your reefing line and that should be fully loose. If you have a Cunningham I would disconnect it for now. It is a pretty nuanced piece of equipment to be playing with when you are starting to learn how to trim your mainsail and if you forget to release it when hoisting the main you will probably not get a full hoist. Did your main have that bagginess at the foot the other day when you had the trouble?

I just noticed the boom on your boat is quite a bit higher than the black tape that wraps around the mast. Typically that tape marks where the boom should be on the mast. Does your boom slide on the mast or is it fixed?
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Hi Dan,

Is the line with the blue tracer your cunningham? It seems to be connected to the first reef on the mainsail. I'm guessing it this your reefing line and that should be fully loose. If you have a Cunningham I would disconnect it for now. It is a pretty nuanced piece of equipment to be playing with when you are starting to learn how to trim your mainsail and if you forget to release it when hoisting the main you will probably not get a full hoist. Did your main have that bagginess at the foot the other day when you had the trouble?

I just noticed the boom on your boat is quite a bit higher than the black tape that wraps around the mast. Typically that tape marks where the boom should be on the mast. Does your boom slide on the mast or is it fixed?

As Rod Stewart once said/sang, 'every picture tells a story' and now I too am wondering if the boat has it's (original?) sliding gooseneck? Those required a tackle or a line to down-haul them to the proper place on the mast. By sometime in the late 80's most boats had gone to a fixed goose neck and sailmakers added a grommet just above there for tensioning the luff of the main once it was fully hoisted.

Cheers,
Loren
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Mark and Loren have scoped it out. That black band on your mast is the measurement line for the sail. Generally the gooseneck, connecting boom to mast, is at that point.

If you don't have a sliding gooseneck, a previous owner may have permanently repositioned the gooseneck higher (to raise the boom higher over the cockpit?).

If in your photo the the sail is hoisted all the way up, meaning the headboard is within three inches or so of the top of the mast, then this is ,uh, wrong.

But the fix is simple: lower the gooseneck.

You can also probably remove those Irish-pennant reef points, unless you feel it necessary to tie away that small amount of reef each time you reduce sail.

It is also possible that the mainsail is from another boat, and is a little too big. But that doesn't explain the gooseneck/measurement line issue.

Look at Mark's E27 "Lotus Flower" gooseneck position:
boomkicker1.jpg
 
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dan.utinske

Member I
Thanks!!!

Mark and Loren have scoped it out. That black band on your mast is the measurement line for the sail. Generally the gooseneck, connecting boom to mast, is at that point.

If you don't have a sliding gooseneck, a previous owner may have permanently repositioned the gooseneck higher (to raise the boom higher over the cockpit?).

If in your photo the the sail is hoisted all the way up, meaning the headboard is within three inches or so of the top of the mast, then this is ,uh, wrong.

But the fix is simple: lower the gooseneck.

You can also probably remove those Irish-pennant reef points, unless you feel it necessary to tie away that small amount of reef each time you reduce sail.

It is also possible that the mainsail is from another boat, and is a little too big. But that doesn't explain the gooseneck/measurement line issue.

Look at Mark's E27 "Lotus Flower" gooseneck position:
View attachment 15683

I really appreciate the feedback and I'm heading to the boat this afternoon to reset the goose neck to the correct position and make all the other recommended changes. I've signed up for ASA class next month which should help a lot with actual hands on experience as part of the training package. Again I do appreciate everyone taking the time to assist and I will make good use of the information.

Regards,

Dan
 

dan.utinske

Member I
Fix and Repair!

As Rod Stewart once said/sang, 'every picture tells a story' and now I too am wondering if the boat has it's (original?) sliding gooseneck? Those required a tackle or a line to down-haul them to the proper place on the mast. By sometime in the late 80's most boats had gone to a fixed goose neck and sailmakers added a grommet just above there for tensioning the luff of the main once it was fully hoisted.

Cheers,
Loren

The boom is now in the proper position with a little effort. The bottom is held in place by a simple round tube with a screw outside the channel that holds it in place. The upper screw however is a homemake configuration of a screw and nut, using the nut to jam the slide.. working to remove that and allow the main to slide all the way down when releasing the sheet. There is a wider gap in the mast near the index line which I imagine is for installing the main; not sure how it will stay in place once I remove the upper screw tomorrow morning but I will cross that bride when I come to it.

I can say the main goes up a lot easier and just sitting at the dock the bulge in the sail is gone. I don't know if I need the Cunningham at his point, but will take recommendations. The main is usable but basically crap so I'm ordering a new one for my Mark II. The Jib looks in pretty good condition. Just to confirm this is the main for the 23' and odd how lowering the boom seems to enable the main to go nearly to the top with ease.

Thanks again!
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Dan,

Please take some photos when you get a chance. Have you ordered your mainsail? If you are ordering the sail online becareful that you get the right sail. There is a big diffence between the earlier mk1 and your mk2 mainsail.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The boom is now in the proper position with a little effort. The bottom is held in place by a simple round tube with a screw outside the channel that holds it in place. The upper screw however is a homemake configuration of a screw and nut, using the nut to jam the slide.. working to remove that and allow the main to slide all the way down when releasing the sheet. There is a wider gap in the mast near the index line which I imagine is for installing the main; not sure how it will stay in place once I remove the upper screw tomorrow morning but I will cross that bride when I come to it.


Thanks for an (unintentional?) chuckle on a cold and rainy day! Much appreciated!
:rolleyes:

Loren
 
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