• Untitled Document

    Join us on March 29rd, 7pm EST

    for the CBEC Virtual Meeting

    All EYO members and followers are welcome to join the fun and get to know the guest speaker!

    See the link below for login credentials and join us!

    March Meeting Info

    (dismiss this notice by hitting 'X', upper right)

E34 water leak

HerbertFriedman

Member III
1987 E34, has a water leak just under the starboard freezer, just forward of the door to the head. Small amounts of water leaking under the panel in front of the freezer, just enough to ruin the varnish but eventually will rot the panel. Cannot see any leak from the access port under the head sink looking forward. Would hate to have to remove teak panel of the freezer, lots of bungs, molding that has to come off, etc. Freezer has not been used in some time, and is completely dry, the water pipes going to the head sink are high and cannot see any leak. Any ideas??
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Freezer leak

Is it the sole being stained or the front panel? If it is the front panel or the top of the sole, check the drain at the bottom of the freezer. I had a leak that stained the sole at the (in my case) of the cooler. It turned out to be that the head sink drain was not shut off and it would leak into the bilge when the boat was heavily healed on the port tack. The evidence would disappear when the boat was more upright and the water would drain out the drain. The clue was that the sealed compartment next to the sink would mostly fill mysteriously. The bilge pump took care of the excess that got to the bilge. Making closing the sink seacock a checklist item solved the leak. I'm now refinishing that part of the sole.

Bob Morrison
E-34 "Terra Nova"
 

Chris A.

Member III
Something else to check

I have the same boat. When my water heater (located in the starboard sail locker) rusted a hole and was leaking, the water worked its way to the same place you are describing. So consider broadening your search. Of course, the fridge may be the culprit in your case...
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Bob, the ruined varnish (from the water leak) is on the vertical surface at the very bottom of the front panel (the panel directly in front of the starboard freezer unit). As you know from your E34, there is a ridge in the floor surface that separates the head from the rest of the cabin, and the leak is forward of that ridge so I dont think the leak is coming from the head sink plumbing (drain). I also have a leak in the head discharge pipe (uggh), looks like the pipe (1 1/2" ID heavy wall tube) is original and the tube itself appears to be leaking, I need to change that tube right away due to the smell, but the other leak nearby is next on my list.

I thought it could the the drain fitting on the starboard freezer but that is bone dry, we have not used that in several months so there is absolutely no water in the freezer.

Do you or any other E34 owners know how the panel right in front of the starboard freezer comes out. I do see bungs at the top and molding on the sides but it looks like quite a delicate job to remove that panel without destroying it. Any ideas?
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Chris, thanks for the info. I dont think it is the starboard freezer because it has not been used in months and is bone dry but I never thought of the water heater. That tank is located in the starboard sail locker just forward of the holding tank? How did you determine that was the cause of the leak? and how do you think the water managed to get past the head area to finally show up just forward of the ridge in the cabin sole which separates the head area? I wonder if the sole in the head area is a molded unit so water cannot leak there and the area just forward of the head is the first place it can get out. Again, how did you ever determine it was the water heater tank? I will put my and around that thank as best I can to see if there is wetness there. Also, care to share with us the cost of this replacement??
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Water Heater

The water heater could possibly leak into the cooler area if the boat were heavily heeled on the port tack. Otherwise it should leak into the bilge. My boat has a shut off for the water heater in the engine compartment. A hose for the water heater could be a culprit. Mine were hard and cracked. Another possibility could be a hose going under the cooler to the starboard water tank. I have one that goes right through the area you are talking about.


I know all about sanitation hoses that are odorifeurs. I just replaced all my sanitation lines (worst job ever in a boat). My 34 has more hose than a boat has a right to have. I also put in a Raritan Elegance electric head. This was my wife's suggestion and our anniversary gift(her suggestion also). This tells you how much she hated the manual head. I have to admit that the Elegance is really nice. The old installation was a comedy of errors including a 1 1/2" check valve in line to the Y valve. Guess what the material being transported stuck to and dried up jamming the check valve. I will do a little article on this improvement after I have shrunk my pics to low def.

Good luck,

Bob Morrison
1987 E-34 "Terra Nova"
Hull #15
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Bob, the leak that I see is still when the boat is sitting level at the dock so maybe my leak is not the water heater. But there is a water pipe running along the inside cavity right where the leak is. This pipe has a splice in it a few inches aft of the leak but it does not look like that splice is leaking. The pipe looks like old, black rubber pipe and after the splice, the tubing is the newer transparent tubing with threads embedded in it for strength, that kind of tubing is in may other places in the boat and probably not original. I will look more carefully at that tubing to see if the tubing is cracked forward of the splice.

BTW, I cannot tell what that tubing is for? Now that you mention the water heater I am sure that tubing goes to the water heater but I cannot tell if it is the cold water feed or the hot water return. I guess what I will do is run the water heater at the dock (powered by shore power) and see if the pipe is hot or cold, not that it makes much of a difference, a leak is a leak. But if this tube goes from the starboard water tank to the hot water tank, where is the hot water tube? I need to look with my camera, no way I can get my face down in there.

I agree this boat has more systems and tubes than imaginable. Great when the boat was new but after 27 years, system go, I guess that is why the boat depreciates so much. When I bought the boat a year ago, the surveyor noted that many hoses need to be replaced and not wanting to crawl around, I incorporated the yard bill into the purchase price, at least in my mind. The hose from the sea water inlet to the heat exchanger (main cooling line) required the floor boards in front of the engine to be removed. Turns out the circular hole under the sole was just barely large enough to fit the OD of the hose, no way anyone could have threaded the new hose through that hole blind, so the floor board had to come up, new bungs, etc. Luckily the floor board was just screwed not glued on otherwise I would have been tagged with a new floor board, and of course it would not match the rest of the cabin sole, so you see where this could have led.

Thanks again for the info.
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Bob, now that you mentioned that you worked on the head, let me ask you if you changed the 1 12/" discharge hose going from head output to the holding tank, mine has a anti-siphon valve before the Y valve, I imagine yours does also. Aside from the normal difficulty of getting that hose off the head outlet barb, how did you snake the new hose back to the Y valve in the starboard sail locker? There is a lot that I cannot reach and need a camera to even see where the hose goes.

My plan is to remove the hose from both the head outlet and the anti-siphon valve (in the sail locker, I will have to remove the CNG tank to get good access). Then I plan to wire the old hose to a new hose (the modern, white sanitation stuff at $4/foot, ouch) in the head area and use the old hose as a "messenger" to pull the new hose through. I will get a helper in the sail locker to pull while I push the new hose through the hole in the vertical wall of the head compartment. I think I need to wire the old and new hoses together, dont want them to separate halfway through with all the pulling and pushing. I will punch 4 holes in both hoses maybe a half inch from the end and wire both hoses together, like stitching lines when you pull a new halyard through. Any comments on my approach?

Also, the suspect tube that probably goes from the starboard water tank to the hot water tank is led through a small hole in a vertical bulkhead or plate right aft where the leak is. If I want to replace that tube, how do I get access to the starboard water tank, by unscrewing a bunch of screws in the starboard settee? On my previous boat (Tartan 30), that access plywood plate was actually the top of the water tank and not easily removed since it was sealed to the bottom of the water tank. I hope Ericson had the good sense to make the water tank stand alone and that access plate is not glued in, any more comments?
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Could be?

Herb,

Have you tasted the water to see if it's saltwater? I it may be from your stuffing box or even the rudder tube.

We we discovered water on a hard port tack heeled about 30 degrees. It was fresh water. I'm thinking it was residual condensation from our AC unit. The grid under the sole tends to trap water that only appears while heeling hard.

Rick
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
have not tasted it yet, will do shortly. But the stuffing box is a pretty new dripless unit, still could be the rudder tube, will try to check that.
Trouble with the taste test, is that by the time the water has leaked onto the cabin sole, it is so "fouled" that I usually cannot taste the difference. But I think if it were the rudder tube, the water would find its way into the engine bilge long before it got to the area forward of the head, and the leak is present with the boat at the dock, no heeling needed.
 

Chris A.

Member III
Water heater leak

Some years ago, I had some ongoing mild moisture problems in the area you are describing for a few months. No water visible on the cabin sole, just some varnish deterioration and the veneer inboard of the starboard reefer was darkening. You could see some dampness in the joints around the angled panel of the cabin sole that butts up against the stb. reefer cabinet. I thought it might be refrigerator condensation or this or that. In retrospect, that was when the water heater began to leak.

When the tank completely let go one weekend that summer, I was at anchor and noticed a puddle of water on top of the sole in that area. Maybe the tank had begun leaking more when we were sailing that day, so that some of the water could go to starboard on a heel, I don't know. But you could see the trickle of water tracking from the base of the water heater, into the bottom of the cockpit sail locker, forward into the locker space inside the head vanity, then forward from there to eek its way out inboard of the starboard refrigerator cabinet onto the cabin sole.

Replaced the hot water tank and the area you describe has been completely dry since, for a number of years now.

So there's a path for water to track that way before getting down into the bilge. Might be worth checking out the water heater and its lines, and listen for any brief intermittent cycling of your fresh water pump as a clue that you may have a potable water leak causing your problem. Anything leaking in the head vanity could come out in the same place too (sink drain or supply lines, head intake or discharge lines...).

Good luck tracking it down!
 
Last edited:

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Chris, do you think I might be able to feel for a water leak around the tank? Right now I have the CNG tank out since I am changing the discharge hose from the head which winds up at an anti-siphon valve bolted to the front panel inside the sail locker. So I can see the water heater tank and get my hand around at least the front half of the tank.
 

Chris A.

Member III
Feel, look, smell, listen...

Sure I would feel around the water heater but also investigate the lowest spot in the forward / inboard corner of the sail locker that you can get to (or shine a light on) because that is where a potential leak is going to accumulate a bit. In my locker there is a limber hole down in that corner, that you can stuff a rag or paper towel into to allow water to accumulate a little more. If it's really dry in the bottom of the locker than you don't have to worry too much about the hot water heater or any other leak source in the sail locker. If it is damp down in the bottom then you at least have a lead on your mystery down in the cabin. If I remember correctly I could just squeeze my head over the top of the holding tank and get a look down and forward of it, down by the water lift muffler. I am assuming that you have the molded v-shaped holding tank that sits aft of the hot water heater? It makes it nearly impossible to get to anything forward. It had to come out when I replaced the hot water heater and I never installed it again because the access became so much better. And I can get to the hot water tank to drain it properly for the winter!

Also, feel with your finger tips in the head vanity, down from the through hulls where the hull meets the inside of the cabinet; that was damp when I had my problem. Put some paper towels in there and see if they get soggy after awhile. I thought it might be condensation but it wasn't.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Hose

That spliced hose coming out from under the freezer was spliced for a reason. Mine is one piece. The top of the settee comes off to expose the tank (at least that's what my manual says). I haven't tried to get into a tank yet. I've only had the boat for a year so I haven't had time to tear it to shreds yet but I'm working on it. :0


Bob Morrison
E-34 "Terra Nova"
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Herb - Some random thoughts.

I don't think there are any hoses under the ice box except for the drain. I assume the drain is valved off under the galley sink (if not, the seawater pump pumps water in that direction). The water lines are under the cabin sole going from the galley to under the engine compartment (got pix). The starboard water tank should go to the galley manifold via the grid, not to the heater. I don't have a pic, but that's what I remember.

Because of the shape of the hull I would expect a leak would most likely be aft of the icebox rather than forward.

...there is a ridge in the floor surface that separates the head from the rest of the cabin, and the leak is forward of that ridge so I don't think the leak is coming from the head sink plumbing (drain).

Several years ago I had water leaking out from the same place, found the source and fixed it, but have no recollection what was leaking. I do remember the water was coming forward along the hull next to the head sink cabinet and under the icebox compartment. It was not easy to see, but I could feel it. Possibly from the counter storage compartment in the head. I can't remember if the drain is sealed or not. I keep the head port open with a screen on it so rain does come in.

I dump my water heater with the drain valve every fall and the water goes to the bilge, not the head compartment. If the tank leaks you can feel/see the water.
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Bob, I agree the splice must have been done to solve a problem. When I removed the hatch panel from under the forward starboard settee, I could see past the bulkhead separating the water tank from the forward stowage space. I do see that it is a poly tank and not a molded fiberglass tank, which was the case on my previous Tartan 30, so I am sure that when I remove the screws from the aft part of the settee, I will get to the water tank. In my Tartan, that plywood section of the settee was actually the top of the water tank and was very difficult to remove, hopefully the Ericson will be easier.

Even without exposing the entire tank, I can see from the stowage area that there are two hoses coming off the end, one at the top and the other at the bottom. The top must be a vent line, the bottom hose is a solid grey plastic hose which I am sure goes to the sink in the head as well as to the galley sink.

The hose that I see in the splice is definitely not that supply hose, so it must be the vent hose. So now the mystery is why would the PO splice in a vent hose, it normally does not carry any water so who cares if there is leak in the hose? Even more of a mystery, is that the vent hose coming off the water tank is a clear hose reinforced with fibers, like normal water hose. The hose that I see at the splice in the head area has that same clear, fiber reinforced hose going aft probably to the transom where other vent hoses terminate. But the hose going forward is a solid black hose, looks very old and suspect, hence maybe it was bad and replaced with the splice. So is there yet another splice forward of the one in the head?? Very strange.

Right now the leak appears to have stopped, again very strange if it is a leak associated with either a bad water tank or a bad hot water tank. Now I have just started to replace the head (toilet) discharge hose which developed a leak just after the hose clamps which attach that hose to the head outlet. Phew, the smell was pretty bad, the hose leaked all over the cabin sole in the head. So if that hose also leaked some urine into the area behind the wall of the head sink and that liquid found its way forward and drained out just forward of the head area, I sure am glad I did not taste to see if was fresh or salt. I might have tasted salt for obvious (and disgusting) reasons!! You gotta be very careful what you taste.

I am now trying to pull the old head discharge hose out through the sail locker and attach a new, white sanitation hose, hope that goes well. If the leak forward disappears, well and good, if not, back to my mystery.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Herb - I suspect that you have a basic misunderstanding of how the water system works. The two or three water tanks are connected to the manifold under the galley sink. The output from the manifold goes to the pressure pump and from there to the galley sink, the head sink, and the water heater. If it wasn't plumbed this way there wouldn't be pressure to move the water from the tanks. The hot water comes forward to the head & galley sinks.

The cold water line heading aft and the hot water line for the galley sink go from the galley under the sole aft & under the engine compartment. They are not under the starboard ice box.

From the factory the two or three tank vent lines go to the spigot at the galley sink. They don't work well. It is possible that a previous owner rerouted the vent line aft. If this is the case, it could be the source of your leaked water.
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Herb - I suspect that you have a basic misunderstanding of how the water system works. The two or three water tanks are connected to the manifold under the galley sink. The output from the manifold goes to the pressure pump and from there to the galley sink, the head sink, and the water heater. If it wasn't plumbed this way there wouldn't be pressure to move the water from the tanks. The hot water comes forward to the head & galley sinks.

The cold water line heading aft and the hot water line for the galley sink go from the galley under the sole aft & under the engine compartment. They are not under the starboard ice box.

From the factory the two or three tank vent lines go to the spigot at the galley sink. They don't work well. It is possible that a previous owner rerouted the vent line aft. If this is the case, it could be the source of your leaked water.


Different model from ours but the forward water tank vents in the galley sink, the aft vents into the head sink. The one in the galley had the hose pop off underneath a while back noticeable only when refilling that particular tank.

Crazy question Herb, had you recently filled your aft tank (s) before you noticed the water on the sole?
 
Top