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E34 water leak

H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
I refilled both starboard and port water tanks (not the water tank in the bow) about a month ago and I am not sure when the leak occurred, will check the vents. But on my 87 E34 there are three vents going to the transom, one I know for sure is from the holding tank and I suspect that the other two are water tank vents but not sure which water tanks. One could be from the hot water tank just forward of the head, and the other could be for the diesel tank, will have to check. Easy to check for electric lines but not so easy to check for water and vent hoses.
 
S

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Vents

The farthest out vent on the stern is the diesel tank vent. The middle one is the holding tank vent. The furthest inboard one is the relief for the natural gas regulator. On my 1987 E-34 all the vents for the three tanks vent to the sink. There is a manifold under the sink just above the valves for the tanks that controls which tanks are vented. Be sure these are open and not shut off.

Bob Morrison
1987 E-34 "Terra Nova"
 
H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
As far as the vents on the transom, I guessed correctly for the diesel and holding tank but did not know about a vent for the CNG valve, thanks for the info, these lines are sometimes very hard to check, heaven forbid Ericson would have labeled them.

When you say that all three water tanks are vented to the galley sink, not exactly sure how, do they just connect to the sink drain above the thru hull? Or where? The sink just has three connections, one for the pressure cold water, one for the pressure hot water and one for the drain. Do the three vents go into a 3:1 manifold so there is only one vent line going to the galley sink?

So if you overfill any of the water tanks, the overflow will drain into the galley sink? Is that an acceptable way of knowing when the water tank is full, right now I just go by sound, the frequency of the noise of the water filling the tank gets higher as the tank approaches full but that is not very satisfying.
 
Rick R.

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
HerbertFriedman said:
So if you overfill any of the water tanks, the overflow will drain into the galley sink? Is that an acceptable way of knowing when the water tank is full, right now I just go by sound, the frequency of the noise of the water filling the tank gets higher as the tank approaches full but that is not very satisfying.
Click to expand...

Thats how we do it. Fill till it starts running in the galley sink or head sink.
 
C

Ccaptain

Ccaptain
Strb freezer panel

Removal of this panel will mean detaching it from the foam and reveal very little except the foam and a small void near the bottom which will expose the drain line. It is also a complicated job.

Ccaptain
 
H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
thanks for the information, I was afraid of that. If the leak persists after replacing my leaking head discharge hose, I will look forward and aft of the fridge panel.
 
S

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Vents, etc.

Herb,

The vent shutoffs are under the sink on the right side above the water tank shut offs. It helps to stand on your head to locate them. The manifold goes to one tube at this point then to the left spigot. The system appears to work and the vent pours out into the sink when the tank tops out. Just make sure the vents are open when filling the tanks. The cooler drain shutoffs are on the left side back panel. Lots of shutoffs under the sinks.

There are actually two 1 1/2" lines that go through the bulkhead behind the head. Both go to the bottom of the black water tank. The tank needs to be tipped back at the top to reach them. I fished both of them through the bulkhead by attaching the old and new hoses together and pulling-pushing them through. You can't reach the bulkhead through the head compartment or through from the cockpit locker so this is the only reasonable way to fish them to the black water tank. I used Trident 101 black hose. Expensive and difficult to work with but I don't ever want to do this job again. I did find it online at ehydralics for $4.00. At the walk in store, it was $11.00. Expect additional fun when you pull these. After the hookup was complete, I found that my shower pump and my Espar cabin heater had stopped working. Both were due to electrical wiring being yanked back and forth during the hose pull. All is well now!!

Good luck,

Bob Morrison
E-34 "Terra Nova"
Hull # 15
 
H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
thanks for the detailed information, I will check under the galley to verify these connections. One question, you say that after the multiple vent tubes are combined into one, that one goes to one of the spigots on the galley sink, I presume that is the cold water spigot? So if the vent tubes are to indicate when the water tanks are full, the overflow comes out the vent tube, through the cold water spigot (which should be in the open position to prevent an air block) then into the galley sink, so I also presume that you need to open the sink drain or else the overflow may over fill the sink, correct? Also sounds like you must not have the water pressure pump on during this process?

Now to update my head problem, I finally was able to pull a new, very pretty, 1 1/2" white sanitation hose from the head discharge through that rear bulkhead to the sail locker. Not easy, the hoses are quite still and there are lots of bends along the way. Following a technique that I used to pull a new main halyard through, I "stitched" the end of the old hose to the new white hose, using copper wire so it would not separate during the pulling process.
But still there were problems, I had disconnected what I thought was the end of the head discharge hose from the Y valve and had a kind helper push that end while I pulled the hose from the head area, no go. We finally tried blowing in one end of the hose to see if there was a corresponding flow at the other end, again no go. Turns out the yard had installed a new Y valve (the one from from the PO was hopeless stuck in one position, turned out to be a water bottle cap stuck in the valve!!) BACKWARDS, and the end of the head discharge hose was another hose. There are several 1 1/2" black hoses all snarled up back there, the two that you mentioned going to the bottom of the holding tank, the head discharge hose,the pump out hose for the holding tank, etc. And you cannot see very much and all the hoses are so still from age that wiggling them is useless. Uggh.

I finally had to remove the CNG tank and its platform to see what hose was going where and I now have what I believe to be the plumbing diagram, I will try to upload it if I can figure out how, or e-mail me back channel. I finally removed the Y valve and confirmed that it was rotated 120 degrees so that the head discharge hose was always blocked, no flow whatever. It has been this way for about a year when I bought the boat and since we do not use sea water to flush the head (smells up the holding tank), we use gallon jugs of fresh water to flush. I keep track of the amount of water and I estimate that we have pumped 6 gallons since the last pump out. With the head discharge completely blocked by the wrong valve position, dont ask me where those 6 gallons went but they aint in the bilge. Maybe the fluid (no solids were present) leaked around the valve, who knows, another nautical mystery.

But the pumping action against a closed hose probably ruined the head pump ($200 for a new pump) and may have caused a seepage leak in the head discharge hose, which prompted this whole search, the "admiral" was pretty upset at the smell and foul water around the head. I am going to write a letter to the boat yard manager, so at least he knows there is a problem with his help. I will put Humpty Dumpty back together today and I think all is now OK, the head flushes OK and no leak, yeah.

P.S. I tried to upload my power point file for the head plumbing circuit, no go, says my file is invalid. Uggh again. e-mail me at friedman33@comcast.net if you want to see my diagram.
 
Christian Williams

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
we do not use sea water to flush the head (smells up the holding tank), we use gallon jugs of fresh water to flush

Since you've got everything apart, there's an easy way to provide a fresh-water flush--tee the salt intake to the water basin drain. With the salt intake seacock closed, fresh water run into the wash basin now goes to the head.
 
Alan Gomes

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Christian Williams said:
we do not use sea water to flush the head (smells up the holding tank), we use gallon jugs of fresh water to flush

Since you've got everything apart, there's an easy way to provide a fresh-water flush--tee the salt intake to the water basin drain. With the salt intake seacock closed, fresh water run into the wash basin now goes to the head.
Click to expand...
This is a superior solution to using gallon jugs because the fresh water is actually pulled through the pump, whereas with the gallon jugs you are simply dumping those directly into the bowl.
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
U/L Solution, Perhaps

HerbertFriedman said:
thanks for the detailed information, I will check under the galley to verify these connections. One question, you say that after the multiple vent tubes are combined into one, that one goes to one of the spigots on the galley sink, I presume that is the cold water spigot? So if the vent tubes are to indicate when the water tanks are full, the overflow comes out the vent tube, through the cold water spigot (which should be in the open position to prevent an air block) then into the galley sink, so I also presume that you need to open the sink drain or else the overflow may over fill the sink, correct? Also sounds like you must not have the water pressure pump on during this process?

Now to update my head problem, I finally was able to pull a new, very pretty, 1 1/2" white sanitation hose from the head discharge through that rear bulkhead to the sail locker. Not easy, the hoses are quite still and there are lots of bends along the way. Following a technique that I used to pull a new main halyard through, I "stitched" the end of the old hose to the new white hose, using copper wire so it would not separate during the pulling process.
But still there were problems, I had disconnected what I thought was the end of the head discharge hose from the Y valve and had a kind helper push that end while I pulled the hose from the head area, no go. We finally tried blowing in one end of the hose to see if there was a corresponding flow at the other end, again no go. Turns out the yard had installed a new Y valve (the one from from the PO was hopeless stuck in one position, turned out to be a water bottle cap stuck in the valve!!) BACKWARDS, and the end of the head discharge hose was another hose. There are several 1 1/2" black hoses all snarled up back there, the two that you mentioned going to the bottom of the holding tank, the head discharge hose,the pump out hose for the holding tank, etc. And you cannot see very much and all the hoses are so still from age that wiggling them is useless. Uggh.

I finally had to remove the CNG tank and its platform to see what hose was going where and I now have what I believe to be the plumbing diagram, I will try to upload it if I can figure out how, or e-mail me back channel. I finally removed the Y valve and confirmed that it was rotated 120 degrees so that the head discharge hose was always blocked, no flow whatever. It has been this way for about a year when I bought the boat and since we do not use sea water to flush the head (smells up the holding tank), we use gallon jugs of fresh water to flush. I keep track of the amount of water and I estimate that we have pumped 6 gallons since the last pump out. With the head discharge completely blocked by the wrong valve position, dont ask me where those 6 gallons went but they aint in the bilge. Maybe the fluid (no solids were present) leaked around the valve, who knows, another nautical mystery.

But the pumping action against a closed hose probably ruined the head pump ($200 for a new pump) and may have caused a seepage leak in the head discharge hose, which prompted this whole search, the "admiral" was pretty upset at the smell and foul water around the head. I am going to write a letter to the boat yard manager, so at least he knows there is a problem with his help. I will put Humpty Dumpty back together today and I think all is now OK, the head flushes OK and no leak, yeah.

P.S. I tried to upload my power point file for the head plumbing circuit, no go, says my file is invalid. Uggh again. e-mail me at friedman33@comcast.net if you want to see my diagram.
Click to expand...

Hi Herbert,
If you are not sure what to do about u/l file formats (check the list of allowed formats in the file u/l dialog box), you could send the offending file over to me at my regular email addy (sailaway10 AT comcast DOT net). I can usually get those file formats to change on-the-fly when I launch them. I recall that I can do this with "powerpoint" suffixes.
Like most other sites with storage capabilities, this software has limits on type and size of uploads.

Regards,
Loren
 
F

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi Herbert,
Congratulations on solving and fixing this perplexing problem. You received good suggestions from members on this site, but your diligence and perseverence eventually solved it.
On our 1984 E30+ a simple symptom has sometimes become a major challenge and I've learned that this is simply part of boating and maintaining an older boat.
Each time I fix something like this it helps me understand the boat better and increases my confidence in tackling the next issue.
It's important to do lots of good sailing between repairs to remember what it's all about!

Frank
 
Alan Gomes

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
HerbertFriedman said:
great idea, automatically provides an air break so there is no way foul water can get back to the fresh water system. Patent it!
Click to expand...
Not sure if your comment is in reference to plumbing the sink with a "T" into the pump on the head, but if so, that's how Catalina plumbs their sinks from the factory. It's a good method.
 
Tom Metzger

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
HerbertFriedman said:
thanks for the detailed information, I will check under the galley to verify these connections. One question, you say that after the multiple vent tubes are combined into one, that one goes to one of the spigots on the galley sink, I presume that is the cold water spigot? So if the vent tubes are to indicate when the water tanks are full, the overflow comes out the vent tube, through the cold water spigot (which should be in the open position to prevent an air block) then into the galley sink, so I also presume that you need to open the sink drain or else the overflow may over fill the sink, correct? Also sounds like you must not have the water pressure pump on during this process?
Click to expand...

Herb - Start over - the tank vents go to the left spigot at the galley sink. It is only a vent, nothing else. Bob referred to the vent shut offs. If they were valved off you could not pump water out of the tanks without collapsing the tanks. I don't believe valves exist because they would have no purpose, but I never looked. I'm going to my boat Wednesday so I will look. The vent does indicate my port tank is full, but the starboard tank vent has enough back pressure that the water comes out by the inspection port and leaks onto the cabin sole.
 
Tom Metzger

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Tom Metzger said:
Herb - Start over - the tank vents go to the left spigot at the galley sink. It is only a vent, nothing else. Bob referred to the vent shut offs. If they were valved off you could not pump water out of the tanks without collapsing the tanks. I don't believe valves exist because they would have no purpose, but I never looked. I'm going to my boat Wednesday so I will look.
Click to expand...

As I thought, the tank vents Tee together under the galley sink - no valves.

Galley plumbing 007A.jpg
 
H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
I just got through changing the head discharge hose, I found that the yard monkey had plumbed in the Y valve backward and I was trying to pump out the head into a closed valve. That is probably what caused my Raritan head pump to fail and maybe even caused the head discharge to fail, dont ask about the smell. Got that all sorted out now, pretty exhausted at this point but it seems that my other lead just in front of the starboard fridge has gone away so maybe that leak was also from the head problem.

So no need to check out the water tank vents other than to make sure I know how the system is plumbed. A quick look shows that all the water tanks, port, starboard and bow, are combined into one pipe (with shut off valves upstream) and the one pipe goes to the water pressure pump, as you all indicated.

I also have a non working air conditioner (the boat was originally from lake Mead, and San Diego) so that water pipe also has a pump, not associated with any of the water tanks but just to add to the confusion. The I have to trace the output of the water pump to the cold water spigot and the hot water tank, but will do that this weekend. One part that I dont quite understand, is a blue tank about a foot in diameter with rounded ends teed off of the water pump output. Only one tube into the blue tank so it looks like a plenum to smooth out the pressure variations from the water pump, is that all correct?

Then I do see two or three other 1/2" tube which are combined and which I believe are the tank vents but I really have to stand on my head to see where it goes but it does go in the direction of the left spigot, will check this weekend. Boy compared to my previous boat, a 72 Tartan 30, with essentially few systems, this boat is really complicated.
 
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