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Rudder condition

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I'm looking for opinions on the rudder condition.

My E38 has been out of the water since late May this year. I've been monitoring the rudder shape because there have been two lumps on the starboard side since we bought it 11 years ago. It went through the hot part of the summer ok, but since the weather has cooled down the profile has changed, mostly on the starboard side. I also found a crack in the paint that needs checking. Pictures attached.

Rudder_Trailing_edge04.jpgRudder_Stbd_side_crack01.jpg

Several years ago, I found water inside the shaft and sucked it out, along with a couple tools that were down there. I added a new gasket to the cover for the top bearing in the cockpit floor and solved that problem.

Attached also are pictures of inside of the shaft today. It looks like there is a screw in the bottom of the shaft and that the foam or glue is visible and doesn't look like the shaft bottom is closed. These LED lights are really good at illuminating the space compared to incandescent bulbs. Is this what the bottom of the shaft should look like?

Rudder_shaft_inside04-crop-enlarge.jpg

Finally, I have tracked down a water leak under the cockpit to the bearing fitting in the floor of the cockpit that the top of the shaft fits into. So, it looks like another delay while I drop the rudder down to re-bed the fitting.

Thanks,
 

Pat C.

Member III
Sounds like you will need a biopsy of the lesion to know...if you want to know. I think you already know that, just have to come to terms with it.

if you know anyone with a portable X Ray setup, it may show you something, but still will need a biopsy in the end.

Could be a previous blister repair by previous owner, given length of time it's been there. But most likely water intrusion. Read somewhere that you can drill a hole near the bottom of the rudder and see if it's wet, drain/dry and epoxy closed. I would get my fiberglass/rudder person to look a it if it was me.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I don't think there are any repairs under the paint. I should dig up the receipt for the rudder and see how old it is.

I will drill a drain hole in the bottom to check for water, especially since the shaft bottom looks suspicious. If there's no water and just skin separation then I'll have to decide what to do. And check that crack to see what is going on there.

Thanks for the comments.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
If you are finding that the rudder changes shape as its temperature changes...you've got water in the rudder. Maybe you can get it dried out by the next time you launch, but if it's taken 25 years to get this wet, the odds are it isn't going to dry out in any time that's relevant to you.

I had a similar situation in my '69 E32, and although the rudder ended up waterlogged and misshapen due to multiple repairs over the years, after I replaced it and ripped it apart out of curiosity, with the benefit of hindsight it was not structurally compromised.

It was very easy to get a replacement rudder from Foss Foam in California (not the one in Florida - I don't think the Florida firm has the Ericson molds). And, for a nearly drop-in OEM replacement, it was surprisingly inexpensive.
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
My 1985 foss foam rudder did the same thing. Also my stainless shaft had severe crevice corrosion. A corroded shaft is not funny to joke about even while standing on dry ground, let alone when sailing off a rocky shore with a 20 kt breeze and quartering sea. I replaced mine with out argument from the first mate.
The corrosion was not at all visible until scraping away about 1/4" of rudder blade around the shaft where they come together. Its worth a look if your hauled out.

here is my rudder
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?12527-Rudder-Rebuild-Replace
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
If you've got water, which it looks like you very well might, I'd bet it's pretty saturated and it will never dry out. I say this based on repairing my own rudder some years back. Here are my project pages on attacking this: http://home.comcast.net/~independence31/rudder/rudder-intro.html - The short story is the more I dug, the more water I found, until I decided to just split it in half and rebuild it.

David,
Great website and the section on the rebuild was cool ... and scary. Fortunately, I can probably afford to get a new one from Foss Foam.

Thanks!
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
If you are finding that the rudder changes shape as its temperature changes...you've got water in the rudder. Maybe you can get it dried out by the next time you launch, but if it's taken 25 years to get this wet, the odds are it isn't going to dry out in any time that's relevant to you.

I had a similar situation in my '69 E32, and although the rudder ended up waterlogged and misshapen due to multiple repairs over the years, after I replaced it and ripped it apart out of curiosity, with the benefit of hindsight it was not structurally compromised.

It was very easy to get a replacement rudder from Foss Foam in California (not the one in Florida - I don't think the Florida firm has the Ericson molds). And, for a nearly drop-in OEM replacement, it was surprisingly inexpensive.

Thanks. I have seen previous threads here that reported some reasonable replacement prices from Foss, who probably made this one. The receipt I have is from Foss Foam. If it's wet, I'll probably just replace it. The bulges are hollow sounding for the most part.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Thanks. I have seen previous threads here that reported some reasonable replacement prices from Foss, who probably made this one. The receipt I have is from Foss Foam. If it's wet, I'll probably just replace it. The bulges are hollow sounding for the most part.

Nice solution, but I'll probably get a Foss replacement if one is needed. How much did the new one weigh compared to the original?

When the rain lets up I'll check the rudder and post the results.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Found a letter from Foss Foam

I found a letter from Foss Foam in my paperwork, dated August 10, 1979, that brags a little about their rudder building expertise. Close to the end of the letter it says to cover the rudder with light colored material when it is out of the water to reduce the heating/cooling effects from the sun, especially if the rudder is painted with a dark color.

I still need to do the biopsy, but I found this interesting. I vaguely recall advice to cover the rudder in the past, but more to prevent inadvertent damage while it was removed and standing next to the boat for several months back in 2008-09.
 

Pat C.

Member III
I've read similar recommendations multiple times from varied sources, yet I have never seen a yard practice to reflect it. Interesting.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Close to the end of the letter it says to cover the rudder with light colored material when it is out of the water to reduce the heating/cooling effects from the sun, especially if the rudder is painted with a dark color.

It's common practice where I sail to paint the rudder white or to cover it when it is out of the water. I have the Foss Foam tear sheet in my owner's manual, also.
 

Attachments

  • Xanthus rudder.jpg
    Xanthus rudder.jpg
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I'm thinking about going to a gray bottom paint this time around. Here is a better picture of the rudder when the sun was just right (yep, sun in the NW!). I still haven't drilled any holes for wet core checks or worked around the crack to see if it's just paint cracking. The diagonal shadow from top-center to the middle of the leading edge is the ladder standing by the stern.

Rudder_delam_stbd01.jpg

Related to the rudder and steering system, the upper rudder bearing that is mounted in the cockpit floor has begun leaking water into the area under the cockpit. I pulled it out earlier this week and cleaned it up. Attached are a few pics. It is very heavy and appears to be in good shape. I guess it's chromed bronze, although the shine is very coppery where the chrome is coming off. The cockpit floor layup is showing some water damage, so it will need to be filled under the cockpit floor layer. It's drying out now. The famous grease zerk is present and is on the starboard side when it is installed. It is almost impossible to get to when it's in the boat.

Rudder_upper_bearing010-cockpit.jpgRudder_upper_bearing007-cockpit.jpgRudder_upper_bearing0012-top-clean.jpgRudder_upper_bearing0013-underside-clean.jpg
 

frick

Member III
Foss Foam Rudders

I have done repairs on my rudder on my 1971 E29.
I spend some time with Foss Foam on the Phone. Their were the original builders of my Rudder. They use a closed cell foam that does not soak up water. In the northern climes where I live. Water can infiltrate between the Rubber Stock and the Rudder Post, and when it freezes it crushes a bit of foam, which allows more water to get in... This same thing can happen between the fiberglass and the foam as well.
Repeat the cycle over many years and bad things happen to the Rudder.

I did the fix over the winter with the Rudder in the Basement. I drilled many holes and used a shop vac and the heat from the boiler to dry it all out. Then I filled the holes with 5200. Did a epoxy barrier undercoat... and but the anti fouling paint on. Three years later it is in good shape.
Rick+
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Rick,
Thanks for the information. I decided to order a new one from Foss last week. The skin was cracked and with the delamination of the skin from the core, I don't feel it's worth fooling with it, especially if there is a leak around the shaft.

Craig
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
I'm looking for opinions on the rudder condition.

My E38 has been out of the water since late May this year. I've been monitoring the rudder shape because there have been two lumps on the starboard side since we bought it 11 years ago. It went through the hot part of the summer ok, but since the weather has cooled down the profile has changed, mostly on the starboard side. I also found a crack in the paint that needs checking. Pictures attached.

View attachment 15124View attachment 15125

Several years ago, I found water inside the shaft and sucked it out, along with a couple tools that were down there. I added a new gasket to the cover for the top bearing in the cockpit floor and solved that problem.

Attached also are pictures of inside of the shaft today. It looks like there is a screw in the bottom of the shaft and that the foam or glue is visible and doesn't look like the shaft bottom is closed. These LED lights are really good at illuminating the space compared to incandescent bulbs. Is this what the bottom of the shaft should look like?

View attachment 15123

Finally, I have tracked down a water leak under the cockpit to the bearing fitting in the floor of the cockpit that the top of the shaft fits into. So, it looks like another delay while I drop the rudder down to re-bed the fitting.

Thanks,

When we moved from Florida to Michigan with our Ericson 32-MkII in '91 - it was a new experience hauling out at the end of the season and leaving her high and dry for several months. First thing I noticed was the seasoned sailors wrapping their rudders in tin foil or white shrink wrap. They said this was to keep the sun from heating up the rudder surface and causing the blistering or cracking that looks like what you've got going on.

That first season, I didn't cover the rudder and did end up with blisters. Of course we fixed them and ever since have covered the rudder. Seems to work as we do not have the problem(s) anymore.

-kerry
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Delivery Schedule

I called Foss yesterday (01/14) and was advised to call Finco for status over the holidays. I left Foss a message and called the Finco number. Talked to a very helpful guy and shipping is confirmed (via Foss) for Thursday next week. With the shipping confirmation Foss also sent me a simple drawing of the rudder, which I have attached.

FYI, Finco has a website: http://fincofab.com/

Ericson 38 001.jpg
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Rudder paint

I have checked with the yard about the availability of a grey or white bottom paint. I'm told both show soft growth while in the water more readily than dark colors. In any case the Seahawk hard paint I use isn't available in any light colors. In that case I'll plan to protect the rudder from sunlight/heat if the boat is going to be out of the water and use the black paint again. A couple windshield heat reflecting blankets, sewn appropriately, ought to do the trick.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Cockpit floor repair and upper "bearing" installation

The cockpit floor repair around the upper rudder "bearing" fitting is done (using epoxy) and yesterday my cruising pals came out to help re-install the hunk of bronze. What we learned by staring into the rudder tube below the floor is that this fitting, on the E38s at least, is not a true bearing. We can't confirm it yet (others probably can) but the actual rudder bearing(s) are in the rudder tube. The big bronze fitting is really an emergency tiller access hole with a cover for when it is not in use. It also is a grease pit and a tool trapper and the top of a polluted well if water leaks into the rudder shaft.

The inside diameter is about 3.55" and the rudder post is machined to 3.48" so there is lots of clearance, by design. That explains the light and uneven wear in the chrome coating.

So, after fussing with alignment for a couple hours we just accepted the fact that we had to do a little egging (it was Easter, not Halloween) and got the four screws to fit. It is up and bedded with 4200. One screw head pulled through the floor before I realized what was happening (too much egging), but that is an easy repair. Once the 4200 sets up I can fix that screw hole with a little more epoxy, re-do the countersink and that will take care of it.
 
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
New rudder fits, sort of

For you owners of early E38s - There have been some changes to the rudder specs at some time. Both to the rudder shape and the stock.

The attached photo shows the trailing edge gap from the rudder trailing edge to the little fin on the hull. The trailing edges of each actually line up, there's just a wedge shaped gap. It's probably not serious, but it begs to be filled in by changing the hull.

According to Don at Foss Foam, there may have (must have?) been a change to the E38 rudder mold sometime back (way back) that corrected a problem that the factory had been getting tired of correcting. He recalled the mold being sent back to Ericson, who then modified it to fit the correct shape. That would mean that my hull's fin had been chopped back to fit my old rudder during production. I have hull# 20, a 1980 model.

The rudder stock diameter difference is slight, but enough to force an adjustment to the rudder bearings to reduce the bearing diameter to fit the new stock, which is 3.48" (+/-). I'll measure the old and new stocks and post the difference later. This difference in the rudder stock diameter is an item that Foss could address when they build a rudder, if the mold and fixtures aren't sensitive to that. The stock diameter is machined prior to molding. The stock is extruded tube, I think.

The steering quadrant was also affected, because it would not clamp tightly around the new stock. After cleaning up the stock and checking the gap I took the quadrant to a machinist who took .005" off the flats of the clamp mating surface and that worked.

The rudder stock length was too long (better than too short), too. Foss warned me about that and also said I would have to drill my own 1/2" diameter retaining bolt hole. So, I cut several inches off, using a hacksaw to start, and finished with a portable bandsaw provided by the yard. I can measure that difference and post.

New_rudder-fit05.jpgSteering_Quadrant_fixed02.jpg
 
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