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'74 E-32 A-4 Cooling

C_Breeze

Junior Member
Hey guys,

New to the site, and new to my Ericson. My buddy and I just purchased a 1974 E-32 with an atomic 4 on Sunday, and man am I excited! After looking at the boat a few times and spending some lengthy hours pouring over reviews and other information we finally pulled the trigger. As we were cleaning the boat up and taking an inventory we decided to let the ol' a-4 idle for awhile with a few gallons of premium gas and sea foam. After about 20 minutes we noticed she was running hot and turned it off.

Assessment:

Very little to no water flow out exhaust.
Seacock open, water flow is good.
seacock filter clear, no debris.
Bypass seacock with a water hose anyway, still no water flow out exhaust.
follow hose to water pump, check impeller, impeller good.
bypass impeller with water hose anyway, still no water flow out exhaust.
now it gets gritty.
made it all the way around the engine bypassing every cooling hose with my water hose until I reach a tower like structure which leads directly to the main exhaust line out the rear.
This also lead to the discovery that the entire antifreeze tank has been bypassed completely, which begs the question is there enough antifreeze already in the heat exchanger? and if not, how do I add more?

went ahead and removed the main exhaust line, plugged my water hose into the bottom of the tower, and got very little water flowing out of the top (which would ordinarily be directed out of the rear by the exhaust hose.)
after about 30 minutes of poking and prodding with a coat hangar donated by my slip neighbor, I managed to free up some gunk and rust and whatnot.
after that I was rewarded with a little more water flow, but nothing major.
I am of the opinion that this is my main blockage.

my main questions are

How much water should be expelled out the back at idle?
How in heck am I supposed to properly clean this tower out?
It is located in a very hard to reach area only barely accessible from the cockpit seat hatch.

I know I just unloaded a lot on you guys, but it has been weighing heavy on the mind.

I appreciate ANY feedback, or comments

Thanks for your time
 

Macgyro

Amazingly Still Afloat
Blogs Author
Blockage

My raw water cooled A-4 blasts a stream of water out the back about 10-15' at idle (one blast about every 3-5 seconds). You may have had wasps build nests in your exhaust hose, your heat exchanger core could be rusted internally, thus sending rusty metal bits to clog up your hose. I don't have a fresh water system, so I'm completely in the dark. You can try sending a stream of hose water through the 1.5" exhaust pipe/muffler to see if there are any more clogs, maybe plug the exit hole in the back, fill the hose, then unplug it and "flush" it out. I'm not real good at this sort of thing, so hopefully more experienced boaters will reply. It sounds like you're on the right track. Just be sure not to get water backwards into the exhaust manifold for instance filling the portion of the exhaust pipe/hose with it still attached to the engine!

Check out moyer marine's site about cautions with hooking a hose to your cooling system and about excessive cranking with the seacock open. I think I read that it could literally flood the cylinders with water.

Maybe there was a problem with the heat exchanger and the P.O. bypassed it to try to keep it working.

My 1970 E-32 has a removable bulkhead between the seat locker and fuel tank with the muffler attached to it. I can unhook the hose clamps from the (plastic) muffler and remove it. You may be able to do something similar and run water through the different sections of the exhaust hose. OR the exhaust pipe is attached to the exhaust manifold with two bolts. If you remove this, you need a new gasket from Moyer. (unless someone else knows of a cheaper alternative $3.50 + $18 shipping). I ended up ordering one with a few other parts I needed.

Good Luck, and if you fix the problem, please let us know how!

Dean
1970 E-32-2
 

steven

Sustaining Member
confirming Dean's observation re 10 -15 feet at 3-5 sec for an A4. Mine does the same - now that it's working.
I also have raw water cooling, not heat exchanger.

I tracked my overheating to two problems: leaking muffler; and leaking water jacket.

Knew the muffler was bad because in addition to no water out the stern, there was grey exhaust smoke everywhere.

after replacing that, found a "water jacket cover plate" -- 1" x 3" x 1/16" steel plate mounted horizontally on the left side of the engine block as you face the stern. It provides (some) access to the cooling jacket. Was rusted out and leaking cooling water out the side of the engine. Easy to replace once I found it. Moyer has the part. While I had it off cleaned out lots of rust and debris (impeller fragments?) from the jacket.

Now runs cool.
 

C_Breeze

Junior Member
Ok. After days 3 and 4 of working on the boat, here's what I've learned.

Water comes from seacock to this impellerView attachment 15084 20141013_103735.jpg20141013_103735.jpg

Then it goes directly to what I think is the water pump?
View attachment 15085

Unfortunately I cannot reach that plate because it is located on the very bottom, back, left side of the engine when you are facing the front of it. I tried to get it from under the sink, no luck. Tried to get to it from the seat locker in the cockpit, am to tall to fit. (6'4" has its advantages but in this particular case)

Now after that the hoses go toward an old heat exchanger like this oneheatexch.jpg
But! It is not at all hooked up, and the hoses that would be going into and out of it are just joined up to bypass it all together.

So in sequence, I have raw water going to an impeller, then directly to what I think is another impeller housing, then to the thermostat and manifold. And at the very end of the line I am getting no water out of exhaust and hot running Temps.

Can anyone comment or shed some light?
 

leighton

Member I
There must be a second pump somewhere - either mechanical and mounted on the engine, or electrical and mounted on a bulkhead - that supplies the heat exchanger with seawater, which then is dumped into the exhaust (usually close to the exhaust manifold). That pump is likely not working for some reason.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
You and I have the same boat BUT my version happens to have the A4 in "V-drive" configuration, so it's facing the opposite direction as yours, AND yours was at some point equipped with the very desirable freshwater cooling option.

I think you've attached two photos of the "second" pump that's installed with FWC. The "original" pump for you is probably mounted on the stern side of the engine, and did not make it into your post. You are going to have to get some kind of access to the original pump, even if it means removing the engine - but you might be able to get at it through the lazarette.

A previous owner has bypassed the freshwater cooling system - probably because the engine was overheating. Perhaps they thought, or knew, that the heat exchanger was clogged or leaking. Now that the bypassed system is overheating, this suggests:
* Broken impellers in one or both pumps
* Rust or mineral deposits in the engine
* Clogged muffler (you may have the "standpipe" style, as I do; it looks a lot like the heat exchanger except possibly taller and skinnier; not the "waterlift" model more commonly seen - the standpipe style is strongly preferable if space was made for it)
* Clogged exhaust

My advice would be to study the Moyer manual, simplify the current issue by completely bypassing all of the FWC plumbing for the time being, and get the engine cooling properly using the original raw water setup. Then figure out what, if anything, is wrong with the FWC and decide if you want to put that back into the system again. Most people would keep FWC. My boat, with the V-drive, is not very accommodating with the second pump so I don't have FWC.

There is absolutely no benefit to having the two pumps in series with each other. This would be the FIRST thing I would straighten out.
 
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C_Breeze

Junior Member
The attachment 15084 is my working impeller and what I think was added for the fwc system. The attachment 15085 which you have to click on for some reason, is the original water pump I think.

I know for a fact the the first impeller works, I took a video of it spinning, so do you think I could just run raw water directly to the thermostat housing from this pump?
 

Macgyro

Amazingly Still Afloat
Blogs Author
Sometimes it better to let the professionals handle it

I'm not a fan of paying for mechanical help because I'd rather learn it on my own, but I recently learned a ton from having a professional mechanic work on my engine who was nice enough to let me watch. They also tend to run smaller than 6'4", but still complain about reaching parts of the engine through the lazerette. That being said, Moyer Marine has an excellent and knowledgeable parts desk that may be able to describe the cooling system for you and get you the parts you need to do it yourself. They also have an A-4 blog that may contain your information.

As far as I know, the raw water comes in through a seacock, through a strainer (maybe) and into a pump. Your picture looks like a belt driven pump of some type that I don't recognize. There are a number of different pumps available so Moyer could probably tell you the difference. From the raw water pump, the water either goes into the engine block for raw water cooled, or the heat exchanger. Then in the case of raw water gets pushed out of the engine through a hose near the rear of the engine off the exhaust manifold and then into the exhausthose. So I guess the raw water in the F.W. cooled system gets pushed through the heat exchanger then out to the exhaust hose. I imagine the engine coolant comes out of the exhaust manifold hose and back into the reservoir requiring a second pump to pump the coolant from the reservoir through the engine. Again, I know nothing about these systems.

Here's a link to Moyer's Cooling page in case you didn't have it already. The engine water pump on the aft starboard side of the engine can be nearly impossible to get to, but if you haven't removed the cover and checked the impeller there, I think that's where you should start.

Good luck.
 

Macgyro

Amazingly Still Afloat
Blogs Author
photos from a different raw water cooled A-4

20140413_124444.jpg
20140413_124424.jpg
Here's the best photos I have of my old engine while it was out. The raw water pump in the top photo is slightly blocked by the transmission, but you can see the screws on the cover. The other photo shows the pressure line out of the pump going to something on the side of the engine before it hits the round thing on top (is this the thermostat housing?) Once the water or coolant gets into the engine, I have no idea where it goes, or how to check if it's flowing properly. In response to your question, I would assume that if you had any operating pump pumping water into the engine that that would suffice in terms of cooling, but that would only solve your problem if the original pump was bad and not if there was a blockage in the engine, or exhaust. You would also still have to deal with a spinning broken original pump that could overheat dry or in some other way be bad for your engine. I think my old engine/water pump had a grease fitting on it with a grease gun permanently attached for some reason. If you're in saltwater, you may want to invest in a new freshwater cooled system to avoid the problems associated with saltwater corroding the engine from within.

Best Wishes,
Dean
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
For what it's worth when I click on the OP's attachment 15085, I get:
"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"
 

C_Breeze

Junior Member
Dean,

Yours and my setup looks identical from the outside, yes that is the thermostat housing.

When following the hose from the wp to the thermostat housing, is that just a bracket to keep the hose in place?
 

Bill Sanborn

Member III
What do you mean by "working impeller"? An impeller is a rubber thing inside of a pump. Do you mean pump?

Have you determined if the engine block is being cooled by fresh water or salt water?

The pump in the Moyer diagram is the main coolant pump for the engine. What is the inlet side of your pump connected to? If it goes to a thru hull or inlet
strainer you are salt water cooled. If it goes to the heat exchanger it might be fresh water/antifreeze cooled depending on what the PO did.

The outlet from the pump goes to a T in the side of the block where the coolant flow splits into 2 paths. Coolant going into the block thru the T
provides the cooling for the engine. The coolant going thru the hose up to the thermostat housing bypasses the block providing no cooling effect. The opening
and closing of the thermostat regulates the 2 flows.

If you are having heating problems you don't want any flow thru the bypass hose. Use some vice grips with padded jaws to pinch off the bypass hose. This will
give you max coolant thru the block. Some of us old timers put a ball valve in the bypass hose to regulate temp after removing the thermostat. This would be a
cheap way to get the engine functional.

Remove the hose exiting the manifold, either crank or start the engine and see if you have flow. You can prevent starting by removing the lead from the coil. If you
have coolant flowing out of the manifold smell, taste, etc to see what it is. A temp hose from the manifold to a bucket would stop some of the mess. Irish whiskey is good to clean the palette afterwards, but you need to make sure to spit it out.:rolleyes:

Let us know what you find.
 

Macgyro

Amazingly Still Afloat
Blogs Author
Bracket/inlet?

Dean,

Yours and my setup looks identical from the outside, yes that is the thermostat housing.

When following the hose from the wp to the thermostat housing, is that just a bracket to keep the hose in place?

Unfortunately I really don't know if that was just a bracket, or an important part of the cooling system. Maybe someone else knows.

Actually, I just looked at your diagram. The bracket is listed as a "diverter" and it looks like that's the main place where water flows into the engine. I guess the thermostat housing blocks the water once the engine gets warm and backpressure forces it into the engine? Bill's description mentions this T fitting also.

Call Moyer, it's really nice to talk to them, and they won't force you to buy parts or anything.

Dean
 
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C_Breeze

Junior Member
Thanks to Bill and Mac for clearing some stuff me. Making the two hour drive to the boat again tonight to try and re route my raw water and clamp that bypass hose. I've got untill the 4 th of November to get her 120 miles back to my home port in Washington, NC so I don't have to pay two slip fees for the month. I'll post tonight with some pictures.
 

Randy Rutledge

Sustaining Member
This should be a diagram of the cooling system on the A4 if that helps. The water comes into the pump and from the pump to the side of the block through a t in the line then to the thermostat housing and from the thermostat housing to the exhaust/intake manifold and out the back of the manifold to the exhaust riser or stand pipe where it is mixed with the hot exhaust gasses and out the back of the boat/


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...S36qNkuYYSV4m_W4dCKTXjcgLPqVAbWJqn7FvHDmt-HmN
 

C_Breeze

Junior Member
Last night's mission

10-22-14
10:30pm - close up the shop pack the truck
11pm - Drive 2 hours to Sneads Ferry, NC where the boat sits waiting to be brought home.
1am - begin wrestling with the water pump hoses. (located aft of the motor)
2am - Hanging upside down out of the lazarette with accomplice holding onto my feet. This is getting ridiculous.
3am - still upside down in the lazarette
330am - still upside down in the lazarette (language becoming foul)
4am - faulty water pump successfully cut out of the equation, bypass hose clamped (per Bill's advice).

STILL NO WATER OUT EXHUAST!

Next step, I guess I'm going to try and remove the thermostat all together, to try and narrow it down.

I suppose if I do that and there is still no water that means I have a blockage in either the block or the manifold yes?
 

Macgyro

Amazingly Still Afloat
Blogs Author
Have you called Moyer yet?

If it's a matter of paying a mechanic $300 to fix your cooling system or multiple 3:00am upside down cursing battles along with paying two slip fees, I'd choose the mechanic. If you still want to do it yourself, call Moyer, they're the absolute top Atomic 4 shop in the country, and they can help you over the phone. They're completely rebuilding and parts now, but they've been working on these engines for decades, and can probably point you in the right direction better than anyone here can (no offense).

(410) 810-8920 Tech Service
(610) 421-4436 Parts

or speed dial #8 if you're using my cell phone

Keep us posted!

Dean
 
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C_Breeze

Junior Member
Update- after working this weekend

After troubleshooting my cooling system issues I have narrowed the problem to the source. Muffler. Tracked water flow through the engine all the way to the back end of the manifold and all was good, save for no water out my exhaust. followed red hose out of the manifold as seen here:


20141027_160619.jpg


That red hose then enters my muffler here:

20141027_160724.jpg


So I bypassed the water around the muffler with a longer hose to go directly overboard like so:

20141027_160748.jpg

With this setup, I successfully let the motor run for over an hour at rpms varying from 500 to 1500 and the temp never got over 160. :egrin: My exhaust hose did however get pretty hot, but I was watching it closely and in my opinion was never hotter than it was capable of handling.

My questions are:

Do you guys think she will hold out like this for my 120 mile passage home? (I plan on only using power through a few tricky spots on the ICW and to get out of and into my slips.)

What type of muffler setup is this exactly? And any recommendations for replacement or repair?
 

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