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E27 Toilet Water Through Hull Valve Access

716Ericson27

Lake Erie Viking
So I have done a bunch of hunting around here and have found all the information I can desire about the appropriate installation practices for new through hull fittings and valves. However I was specifically looking for how people in the past have accessed the through hull fitting and valve for the toilet water on a 1976 E27. I write this as I'm at work so I don't have a picture of what I'm about to try and explain, I will try to follow up with one tomorrow in case this doesn't make sense
At any rate yesterday I was down at my new to me purchased 1976 E27. Somehow in my purchasing of the boat I overlooked the valve and through hull for the toilet water. Yesterday after taking a closer look I noticed the valve handle was corroded looking, and after looking even closer the whole valve assembly has quite a bit of play to it, and if I could get a better look at its connection to the through hull I'm pretty sure it is not good. There was a small trim plate that I removed that allows you to "see" down where the valve connects to the through hull, but in no way gives even enough room for a child's hand yet alone one with a tool to access the whole assembly for better inspection and ability to install a new one.
The only way I see it is to cut away the fiberglass "box" that the toilet sits on, make the repairs, and build a new "box" once complete, maybe with better access in the new design. Either way has anyone dealt with this access issue before. I'm fine with strategically cutting away the floor for access, but I don't know what is structural and what is not. Any thoughts would help. As mentioned before I will get a picture up. I just cant believe that a valve like this would be buried to the point of no access.
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Seacock valve access.

Dear friend, You might consider cutting a hole for a deck plate, from above and into the platform or one from the side or both. If your head platform is like mine and i have little doubt that it is, it's plywood beneath the fiberglass platform and an access plate surely wouldn't do any structural harm. Depending upon what you eventually find in there, I would strongly recommend replacing everything. Given its location, there's a good likelihood that it has been there since the day it was fitted at the factory back in 1976, 38 years ago and probably high time to jettison it all with a proper new mushroom fitting and flanged seacock. If elevation should pose a problem, Groco came out with a great new addition to their line of seacocks that would allow one to install one horizontally. Here's a link to those flanges: http://www.groco.net/seacocks.htm Those are tapered pipe threads on the flange top and as such, could easily accept a bronze 90° elbow, ball valve, etc. Please do yourself and your family a favor and don't replace the existing hardware with stuff from Home Depot just to save a few cents for such a critical and not too easily accessible and very important piece of hardware. Also remember to double clamp all hose ends that are below the waterline. Go for it, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
 

716Ericson27

Lake Erie Viking
E27 Toilet Water Through Hull Access

Thanks for the advice and confidence boost Glyn. Hopefully tomorrow I can figure a good place to start strategically cutting away. I will post some pictures as things get under way. I like to think of myself as handy and mechanically inclined, but something about this makes me nervous knowing if I don't get it right my boat could find the bottom of Lake Erie. Suppose it is better I found it now while its still on the hard.
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
flanged adaptor

I recently posted a blog entry about my sea-cock upgrades to my E-26' on this site. I also used one of the Groco flanged adapters for the waste system (pump out) because there was not space for the standard flanged sea-cock. I have been very happy with this setup, and I don't hesitate to recommend it favorably.
 

716Ericson27

Lake Erie Viking
E27 Toilet Water Through Hull Access

Roscoe good call on the right angle attachment, it will becoming part of my tool collection for sure. Shelman, I will be looking closely at your blog entry soon, as what I'm about to describe is certainly going to require some education on my end as for proper seacock installation.
So I went down to the boat yard yesterday to really open this can of worms. Which I'm glad i did because my boat definitely would have been taking on water when launched with what I discovered. The complete valve and through hull assembly is quite corroded and can freely spin round and round through the hull. I was even able to grab the mushroom head from the outside of the hull with my bare hands an move it around.
Before I was able to discover all this good stuff I ended up completely removing the toilet system, hoses and all. Below is a picture of whats left behind in the bathroom. I was very excited to find that the bulkhead behind where the toilet used to be was rotted as well!, luckily it doesn't extend much beyond where I already scraped away in the picture, hopefully I can just make a new bottom for it and call it a day. Nonetheless another project on the list!
However, back to the original goal of accessing the valve and through hull for the toilet water inlet. I plan on cutting out the back 6" or so of the base that the toilet sat on. This should allow me to access the valve and through hull better to make the necessary repairs. My thoughts are to then replace the cut out section with a removable access panel, to allow an future access needs. So Question #1, does anyone see any structural issues with cutting out the back 6" almost the full width of the base and replacing it with a non structural access panel?
Question #2. I'm starting to lean towards replacing the toilet system with a porta-potty. As I will be day sailing with the occasional weekender, no real need for a full on MS system. If this is indeed what I decide to do, should I still replace the through hull and valve, or am I just better off removing what is there and glassing everything over?
As always, looking forward to everyone's insights.
Toilet Room.jpg
-Chris
 

davisr

Member III
Chris,

If you go with the PP, I would still keep the through hull. Would be easier to install a new one than fill that hole. Also might make your boat more sellable one day.

Roscoe
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Question #2. I'm starting to lean towards replacing the toilet system with a porta-potty. As I will be day sailing with the occasional weekender, no real need for a full on MS system. If this is indeed what I decide to do, should I still replace the through hull and valve, or am I just better off removing what is there and glassing everything over?
As always, looking forward to everyone's insights.
View attachment 14037
-Chris

Chris,

Let me put my 2-cents in on the porta potty issue.

I *highly* recommend going with an MSD discharge-enabled porta potty, like this: http://www.thetford.com/HOME/PRODUCTS/PortableToilets/PortaPotti550PMarine/tabid/884/Default.aspx This is what I have on my E26-2 and I am very, very satisfied with this installation.

Since it is the MSD model, I have it hooked up to an electric macerator and then out to a through hull for discharging it when I'm 3 miles offshore. I've had several other boats with the standard head/holding tank arrangement and I like this far better. So if I were you, I'd keep/repair your through hull and just plumb the MSD porta potty to it.

Here are some of the advantages of an MSD porta potty:

1. The effective capacity is greater than any holding tank you are reasonably going to install in that boat. Noticeably so. The reason is that the porta potty uses very little flush water, since it's essentially a glorified bucket. By way of comparison, I can spend more days at anchor without having to empty it than I could on my previous Catalina 30 with a Groco head and 15 gallon holding tank. (Example: On my last trip to Catalina I had 11 days worth of capacity without having to dump the tank--though I was close to full at that point. That was with putting the toilet paper in a trash bag, "Ensenada style." If you want to flush the toilet paper into the tank then you will get more like 7 or 8 days. This compares to about 5 to 6 days max on my old Catalina 30 with the 15 gal. conventional holding tank.)

2. The plumbing is much simplified since you don't have to run hoses around to an external holding tank.

3. The lack of an external holding tank frees up storage you would otherwise give up for the tank.

4. I have ZERO odor issues with this. My other marine heads were not especially problematic in this regard either, but the porta potty is at least as good if not better. I say "if not better" because it uses a fresh water reservoir, so you don't have to deal with the dead critters in the water intake line that sometimes smell like rotten eggs after the boat has been sitting for a while and you do your first few flushes.

5. On my Catalina 30 I set up a tank monitor, at extra expense and hassle. The porta potty has a gauge on front--though it's not really needed anyway since whenever you momentarily open the trap door it's obvious how much room is left!

6. The unit is as simple a device as you can get. Over the years I spent more money on rebuilding pumps, replacing joker valves, etc. than it would have cost just to replace it with a new MSD porta potty. On this there is essentially nothing to go wrong and nothing to rebuild, but even if something did go wrong, you could just toss it and stick in another one!

7. If for some reason you did want to do a deep cleaning of it, it is possible to remove the entire unit and take it off the boat without difficulty. I've not had a need to do that but I could if I wanted to.

8. My wife likes it better than a conventional head because it is a bit taller and she is fairly tall. I'm not tall but don't find the slightly added height objectionable. Comfort wise I find it equivalent to my old Groco or Jabsco heads.

My only gripe about the Thetford is that the mounting brackets are a joke. Mine is held down with some nice stainless brackets that were made custom to replace the flimsy plastic ones. You do want it securely mounted, since the idea of a full porta potty flying across the head compartment in a seaway is not an inviting prospect!

I would say that once you get over the notion that a porta potty is not a "real" head, you will not be disappointed if you go this route. Again, my enthusiasm is *only* for the MSD variety, since having to schlep a 5.5 gallon tank ashore to dump it would not be at all fun. Plus, many of the places I cruise don't allow you to dump them in restrooms--which I'd never want to do in the first place.

With my setup I first turn on the macerator main power switch at the electrical panel. Then I have the actual switch to engage the macerator in the head compartment, covered with one of those "fighter pilot" switch guards. I flip open the discharge through hull (underneath the sink), hold the momentary-on macerator switch for 60 seconds (or less, depending on how full the tank is), empty the tank, close the through hull, and then I'm good. Again, when three miles offshore. If you're in a no discharge area and aren't allowed to dump, then you would just plumb the porta potty to a deck discharge. Of you can use a "T" fitting and have it both ways. Essentially, any way you would plumb a holding tank is how you would plumb this (including the vent line).

Cheers,
Alan
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Considering a Porta-Potty.

Dear friend, If you do decide to use a port-potty as Roscoe suggests, install a mushroom fitting attached to that Groco flange previously mentioned. The tapered threads at the top of the flange will easily accept a nice bronze end cap and if all properly sealed, will be water tight. By the way, Groco suggests two methods of installation of any flanged device as can be seen here: http://www.groco.net/svc-main.htm. The use of G-10 for the backing block is very popular, it can be bought among other places at McMaster-Carr here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#grade-g-10-phenolic/=rkbzdb An alternative is to use 3/4" plywood encapsulated in West System 105 or its equal. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
 

716Ericson27

Lake Erie Viking
Thanks for all the advice, I am now thinking the approved MS porta potty is probably the best of both worlds, and if I go non-MS porta potty, fixing the through hull with seacock and cap is probably the best route. However, I am still wondering if I'm okay to cut away at the base that the toilet was sitting on. I don't want to start chopping it up if someone thinks it could be structural. I personally do not think it is, but sometimes I need a little shove to get me to commit.

-Chris
 

jstaff

Member I
Try a basin wrench...

I believe that a basin wrench would have been helpful.

I have an E27 and I don't recall having any special issues when I changed out my thru hull fittings.
 

Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
However, I am still wondering if I'm okay to cut away at the base that the toilet was sitting on. I don't want to start chopping it up if someone thinks it could be structural. I personally do not think it is, but sometimes I need a little shove to get me to commit.

-

Chris,

The "structure" of that base is only there to hold up the head itself. You could cut 80% of it away and simply get some other material, like starboard or marine plywood to recover the hole by screwing it down onto the edges you leave. ITWMB (if it was my boat) I'd make the hole as big as necessary to get to the valve below.

That "structure" is pretty much the same in just about every production boat I've ever seen.
 

716Ericson27

Lake Erie Viking
E27 Toilet Water Through Hull Access

Chris,

The "structure" of that base is only there to hold up the head itself. You could cut 80% of it away and simply get some other material, like starboard or marine plywood to recover the hole by screwing it down onto the edges you leave. ITWMB (if it was my boat) I'd make the hole as big as necessary to get to the valve below.

That "structure" is pretty much the same in just about every production boat I've ever seen.

Thanks Stu. Just what i needed to hear to put me in the cutting mood. Hopefully I can sneak away from some Easter celebrations tomorrow and get this project moving along. Ill be sure to post some more pictures as I continue. I'm pretty sure once I get the valve and through hull out, the resulting piece in my hand is going to be a haunting site. Just glad all this is being discovered while on the hard.
 

jstaff

Member I
I have an E27 and I don't recall having any special issues when I changed out my thru hull fittings.

I took a look at my head yesterday.... The thru-hulls for my head are mounted on angled side.

Is there any access to the valves through the V-birth locker?
 

Haiku

Member II
In case you wanted some ideas, this is what I've just completed.

I put a 22gal holding tank under the vberth right up against the bulkhead which fits perfectly and takes up very little room. I kept the original thru hulls where they were, which fortunately wasn't where yours are. I installed a diverter valve to have the option of pumping directly overboard or into the tank.
To keep the system simple as well as being more robust, I installed a manual Whale pump to pump out the holding tank. I didn't put in a deck pump out because there are so few of them along the coast up here that it would never be used. And our laws in Canada are far less strict. It would be an easy add on if required by the next owner.
 

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716Ericson27

Lake Erie Viking
So I have the old bad valve assembly removed, after cutting away a little bit of the top of the toilet base structure. I plan on cutting a piece of white plexi the same size as the entire top of the toilet base, effectively making a new top for the entire base. rather then trying to make an odd size patch. I also have decided to nix putting in a new marine head and will be going the porta potty route. However, I will be installing a new through hull and valve assembly to allow for a future marine head if so desired. I couldn't get past the idea of through bolting through my hull for a "proper seacock installation". It just doesn't make sense in my head to put more holes through an old hull. So I have found this method that looks like a good compromise.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/backing_blocks&page=1

Just thought I would share this along with some more pictures of getting the old valve assembly out.

Access Hole Cut.jpgReady for new Through Hull.jpg
 

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frick

Member III
bye bye gate valves

It took me two hours per through the hulls, to get the old gate valves out of my 1971 E29. The hardest was the water intake for the head. I was able to reach with from the copit locker with a 1.5 foot pipe wrench. It help to first remove the 1.25 head exhause pipe. I was really lucky that it did not spin. I also resused the bronze 90 degree fitting which readly excepted a new groco bronze ball valve.

The bronze Groco flange are great products, it the straight one was just too tall to use on my 1.25 fitting.

Rick
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Hmm... I don't recall that one giving me any trouble. I think I set a stilson on the inside and used some kind of tool to spin off the through-hull from outside.

The ones under the galley sink took me a couple of days. Finally ended up applying a wheel-bearing socket that fit the top of the valve, a big extension and my 1/2" ratchet. Came right off in a minute that way, after a day of struggling with pipe wrenches that didn't quite fit into the available opening. :rolleyes:
 
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