Battery Health--hydrometer, plus potential starter motor isssues

Christian Williams · Mar 24, 2014

I use two Trojan Group 27s for both house and starting. Lately one battery turns the M25 over with less oomph than the other. Both batteries were installed by the PO in early 2012.

When on the Xantrex Truecharge2 40A charger, Hydrometer readings on Battery 1 are 127 for all six cells. Three cells on the other battery are 125 ( three are 127).

Left off the Xantrex for 24 hours, A hydrometer shows 125 on all cells of both batteries.

Does this tell us anything? I'm looking for a simple way to know if battery replacement(s) are in order.

sailing42 · Mar 24, 2014

Hydrometer readings

The hydrometer measures the specific gravity of the electro lite and this gives one the state of charge. 1.265 specific gravity = 100% charged or 12.65 volts. 1.225 sg = 75% charge or 12.45 volts. To determine if the battery is good one has to do a load test. A load test tool (resistor that can be adjusted) is hooked up to the battery, a load is placed on the battery for a period of time and the voltage is measured. If the battery maintains a certain voltage then it's good, a weak battery will fail the test. There are newer electronic tools that will do the same thing, a small load tester can be bought at Napa or other auto parts suppliers.
John

Loren Beach · Mar 25, 2014

If you do not mind an engine starting suggestion from up in the cheap seats...

Some years ago, when I was in a 'preventative maintenance' mood, I (laboriously) removed the thousand-hour starter from our M25XP and took it in for a check up or rebuild.
Turns out it was in need of a rebuild - we have a good local shop where the owner goes over the parts and etc with you before spending money.

My point, and I do have one, is that after reinstalling the rebuilt starter, the engine cranked noticeably faster and of course started quicker than ever before --- no matter which battery bank I used.

My .02 worth,

Loren

Tom Metzger · Mar 25, 2014

Christian - With all cells reading the same +/- and in the good range, I'd recommend cleaning up the battery cable connections before spending any money.

With specific gravity tests you are usually looking for a difference between cells which indicates a problem. The actual number is somewhat dependent on how "hot" the acid is, the level of the electrolyte, and other things beyond the state of charge.

clp · Mar 25, 2014

This is a cheap example picture of my primary battery tool. Carbon pile load testers are the down and dirty meter. It'll tell ya inna skinny minute whether the battery is much count or not. I have used my meter hundreds of times, and it will quickly weed out the turkey in the bank..

Dave N · Mar 25, 2014

Loren Beach said:
If you do not mind an engine starting suggestion from up in the cheap seats...

Some years ago, when I was in a 'preventative maintenance' mood, I (laboriously) removed the thousand-hour starter from our M25XP and took it in for a check up or rebuild.
Turns out it was in need of a rebuild - we have a good local shop where the owner goes over the parts and etc with you before spending money.

My point, and I do have one, is that after reinstalling the rebuilt starter, the engine cranked noticeably faster and of course started quicker than ever before --- no matter which battery bank I used.

My .02 worth,

Loren

I went thru the same sequence as Loren. For 2 seasons I put off replacing the starter battery, assuming it was tired. Finally, when I went to order one, the yard suggested using their tester first. Turned out the battery was fine but the starter was the culprit at 33 years of age. BTW a Yanmar starter was around $854 while the after market Hitachi equivalent was $234. I kept the old Yanmar to rebuild and keep as a spare. Also, the original was a direct drive unit and the after market unit was geared, and weighed about 1/3 of the OEM unit.

Christian Williams · Apr 2, 2014

What Loren and Dave said.
Rebuilt starter motor, now cranks TWICE as fast.
Amazing.

Cw iphone

paul culver · Apr 2, 2014

Tom Metzger said:
Christian - With all cells reading the same +/- and in the good range, I'd recommend cleaning up the battery cable connections before spending any money.

With specific gravity tests you are usually looking for a difference between cells which indicates a problem. The actual number is somewhat dependent on how "hot" the acid is, the level of the electrolyte, and other things beyond the state of charge.

I second checking the cable connections. First hand experience has shown me how even very minor crud can make a big difference.

Paul
E29 "Bear"

Maine Sail · Apr 2, 2014

Tom Metzger said:
Christian - With all cells reading the same +/- and in the good range, I'd recommend cleaning up the battery cable connections before spending any money.

With specific gravity tests you are usually looking for a difference between cells which indicates a problem. The actual number is somewhat dependent on how "hot" the acid is, the level of the electrolyte, and other things beyond the state of charge.

Bingo!! Also an SG reading won't tell you the cranking capacity you have left just that the cells are in or out of balance or charged or under charged for their current, at this moment / age, capacity.

Start with a physical load test or impedance of the batteries (any auto parts store could do this), then clean all connections including all neg connections. If that does not do it, and the battery tests fine, rip the starter out and drop it at a good auto-electric shop for a once over.

Christian Williams · Apr 13, 2014

More on the starter motor itself as cause of slow cranking:

In my case, all wiring had been completely upgraded and all engine upgrades recently performed. What's more, the batteries both later passed the load tests recommended here, meaning that they hold a charge fine and have plenty of life left.

And yet, the starter motor didn't have much oomph. Yes, diesels are hard to crank, blah blah, I'm no engine mechanic, blah blah, but still--you want the engine to turn over with some vigor. Is it worth pulling the starter off and taking it to Pep Boys, O'Reilly's or Autozone for "testing?" Yes, worth taking it off. Here are the three responses I got from those three stores, which are equipped with "starter motor testing benches" which show whether it runs or not.

1 "This motor can't be tested."
2 "This motor works fine"
3. "I have no idea what that test we just did shows."
"Well, can I talk to the manager, then?"
"I am the manager."

To pull the starter motor and solenoid requires a ratchet wrench and several extensions. It's probably held onto the block by two bolts. They're hard to access, but you can do it with patience and the correct wrenches--and probably without removing the manifold.

I took the motor, after the experience with the franchise outlets, to a local alternator shop. I suggest asking a boat yard what shop they use. Try to ask discreetly, not "In order to escape paying you, could you direct me to your subcontractor for an off-the-books cash deal."

A guy named Luis ripped my 28-year-old starter motor apart on his bench, blew it out with air, slapped grease on various parts, ground the bendix fair with a hand grinder, slapped it back together with his array of air tools, and handed it back to me in 15 minutes. "Give me 25 bucks."

Upon reinstallation on the M25, this same motor turned over the engine like pants on fire. I mean literally twice as energetically as before. I mean with gusto, baby, with emphasis and flair.

So, anybody with a 30-year old starter motor ignored since installation, I think we ought to at least take it out to dinner once, ask how it's doing, give it some appreciation for long uncomplaining loyalty, and then ballroom dancing.

Don't keep it out late and get it back on the boat in time for breakfast.

Work on the relationship!

gregjp · Aug 2, 2016

Starter Click of Death

Christian,
You wouldn't happen to know where I could find Luis would you? Having gone through all the wiring mods plus new instruments and volt meter, new key switch, and after numerous good clean engine starts I was sailing down MDR main channel last week on my E30+ and turned the key and "click." Turned it again - "click." Third try - success. Once it turns over it does so vigorously (can't imagine it cranking "twice as fast") and the engine starts immediately but, as I have long thought, it seems like the solenoid is not making the connection. I thought I needed a new starter/solenoid (I think they come as one unit) but having read your post on the results of a little tender loving care I think I'll try to go that route before buying a new unit. If you made note of the shop where Luis did his magic please let me know.

Pulling the starter motor looks like it'll be a lot of fun

If you have any tips on removal/reinstallation I'd love to hear them. And is a little grease on the starter motor gear teeth a good idea?

Thanks for all your great (and entertaining) posts. I've learned a lot from them.

Greg Potthoff

Christian Williams said:
More on the starter motor itself as cause of slow cranking:

In my case, all wiring had been completely upgraded and all engine upgrades recently performed. What's more, the batteries both later passed the load tests recommended here, meaning that they hold a charge fine and have plenty of life left.

And yet, the starter motor didn't have much oomph. Yes, diesels are hard to crank, blah blah, I'm no engine mechanic, blah blah, but still--you want the engine to turn over with some vigor. Is it worth pulling the starter off and taking it to Pep Boys, O'Reilly's or Autozone for "testing?" Yes, worth taking it off. Here are the three responses I got from those three stores, which are equipped with "starter motor testing benches" which show whether it runs or not.

1 "This motor can't be tested."
2 "This motor works fine"
3. "I have no idea what that test we just did shows."
"Well, can I talk to the manager, then?"
"I am the manager."

To pull the starter motor and solenoid requires a ratchet wrench and several extensions. It's probably held onto the block by two bolts. They're hard to access, but you can do it with patience and the correct wrenches--and probably without removing the manifold.

I took the motor, after the experience with the franchise outlets, to a local alternator shop. I suggest asking a boat yard what shop they use. Try to ask discreetly, not "In order to escape paying you, could you direct me to your subcontractor for an off-the-books cash deal."

A guy named Luis ripped my 28-year-old starter motor apart on his bench, blew it out with air, slapped grease on various parts, ground the bendix fair with a hand grinder, slapped it back together with his array of air tools, and handed it back to me in 15 minutes. "Give me 25 bucks."

Upon reinstallation on the M25, this same motor turned over the engine like pants on fire. I mean literally twice as energetically as before. I mean with gusto, baby, with emphasis and flair.

So, anybody with a 30-year old starter motor ignored since installation, I think we ought to at least take it out to dinner once, ask how it's doing, give it some appreciation for long uncomplaining loyalty, and then ballroom dancing.

Don't keep it out late and get it back on the boat in time for breakfast.

Work on the relationship!

toddster · Aug 3, 2016

I have not worked on that engine, however I've resurrected a dead solenoid - actually precisely the symptoms you describe - by taking it apart, cleaning it, and installing new brass (iirc) contacts. Total cost about 75 cents. Plus a day of frustration, trying to figure out how to remove it from the vehicle in the first place. Pretty quick once you learn the trick - and now we have the internet for that!

gregjp · Aug 3, 2016

Thanks, toddster, you give me hope.

toddster said:
I have not worked on that engine, however I've resurrected a dead solenoid - actually precisely the symptoms you describe - by taking it apart, cleaning it, and installing new brass (iirc) contacts. Total cost about 75 cents. Plus a day of frustration, trying to figure out how to remove it from the vehicle in the first place. Pretty quick once you learn the trick - and now we have the internet for that!

Christian Williams · Aug 3, 2016

Greg,

Here's Luis:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...12321-Starter-Motor-and-Alternator-Rebuilding

gregjp · Aug 3, 2016

Thanks, Christian. I'll look him up.

Greg

vanilladuck · Feb 16, 2021

gregjp said:
Starter Click of Death

...turned the key and "click." Turned it again - "click." Third try - success. Once it turns over it does so vigorously (can't imagine it cranking "twice as fast") and the engine starts immediately but, as I have long thought, it seems like the solenoid is not making the connection...

Reviving this thread as this is the exact same issue my M25 has on the E32-3. The PO said, "the starter just needs that special touch." I'm more inclined to agree than disagree. So while he probably meant the momentary starter button, I'm looking to wine and dine the starter motor herself

I found a couple semi-related threads removing the starter, but no specific sage advice on this engine:

Starter Replacement

Universal 5416 Starter Removal/Replacement I have an '81 30+ with a universal 5416 and am in the process of replacing the starter. For anyone that's done this, is there any trick you've used to remove and get the starter in there? The access is tight and I can't come up with any sort of angle...

ericsonyachts.org

M40 starter removal

Has anyone removed and replaced the starter motor on the Universal M40 on a mid-80s E381? Engine access on my '84model is not great. The starter in particular appears entirely enclosed by rather solid cabinetry.

ericsonyachts.org

Paper gasket for starter motor - M-25

I pulled my starter motor recently to have it rebuilt. It had a paper gasket attached, half of which I had to scrape off of the motor and half of which stuck to the starter itself. I looked at the the Unviversal/Westerbeke parts lists and they show no gasket for the starter. The guy who...

ericsonyachts.org

Any tips on removal for an M25 / 5421?

Christian Williams · Feb 16, 2021

On my M25 it was two bolts hidden well back under the engine. Ratchet wrench extender. Squirting some PB Blaster. Awkward but not that hard (ah how conveniently memory fades).

Geoff W. · Feb 16, 2021

This is sort of a double thread going on right now but as Ken K. mentioned in the other, before doing serious starter work consider inspecting the wiring coming from the starter as well as the wiring at your engine panel. If the trailer plug connectors are still part of the system, cut them out ASAP and either attach things nicely to bus bars or butt splice the wires back together. It could very well be degraded wires causing the issue.

Dave G. · Feb 16, 2021

Remove, check, clean, tighten all your connections. I too had the click issue and thought it was a starter/solenoid problem. Just years of corrosion and not so tight connections, it only takes one...

p.gazibara · Feb 18, 2021

It truly is amazing how long a starter motor can continue to be in service without maintenance.

On a side note, if those Trojans were installed in 2012, they get an A+ for service life.

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Battery Health--hydrometer, plus potential starter motor isssues

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