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E27 Chain plate move and standing rigging replacement: who has done this?

Scott Abbott

Member III
I know I have seen photos of this on the site. I have been moving forward with the restoration. Now I have come to the gorilla in the room regarding my 30 year old standing rigging and chain plates. As they are internal, hard to know what I have here. They have leaked in the past, we know that for sure. I would like to replace the standing rigging, but I don't like the idea of doing that with the existing chain plates. Who else has had to cross this bridge? Any thoughts appreciated...
 

Schoolboyheart

Member II
there is another thread in which a fellow in costa rica did the same thing only a little differently. He has a pretty suped up E 27 too, cool photos.
 

Scott Abbott

Member III
How many have had their rigs fail?

Hey Loren,
funny... but yes I did find the E27 'Calypte' on Yachtworld last week and actually used photos of what he did to send to a local rigging contractor in Deltaville, VA. Thanks for spotting it too. Is this a serious concern. How many rig failures do we know about for E27 & E29 circa 1970s that have embedded chain plates? Are many people having/deciding to do this? I could just replace the rigging for MUCH less! I am getting quotes for $3,300- $3800 turnkey for rigging only... using stainless 316. If you have an E27 or E29... you have to be concerned right?




 

716Ericson27

Lake Erie Viking
E27 Chainplate replacement

I just purchased a 1976 E27 as a first sailboat and tossed the same question around in my head. What is the life and risk of the embedded chain plates failing? I decided to feel more confident than not that there is some good life left in them. My reasoning was based on no visible cracking, discoloring, or moisture in the top layers of fiberglass around the embedding or in any of the exposed stainless steel hardware. On the topside of the deck where the chain plate passes through it is also solid with no cracking. Where the chain plate passes through the deck there also appears to be a collar of some sort that provides a water tight seal around the penetration. The previous owner said they recently rebedded them and no water leaking issues so I am leaving those alone for now.
I don't want to be too naive and that is why I am considering two preventative measures to keep an eye on the aging hardware. The first to buy a dye test kit, which would reveal any invisible to the eye cracks in the stainless steel that is exposed. I also thought of putting "match marks" on the fiberglass and stainless steel, and every few weeks check where the marks were made and any major movement should be noticeable.
Not sure if any of this helps or makes sense but it is what I have come up with as a first tome sailboat owner. I also have the benefit of my boat being from the Great Lakes region and living in fresh water its whole life, and being on the hard for my time during the year then out on the water. Because of this I like to think of my boat as only 15 years old instead of 30+.
 

Scott Abbott

Member III
I just purchased a 1976 E27 as a first sailboat and tossed the same question around in my head. What is the life and risk of the embedded chain plates failing? I decided to feel more confident than not that there is some good life left in them. My reasoning was based on no visible cracking, discoloring, or moisture in the top layers of fiberglass around the embedding or in any of the exposed stainless steel hardware. On the topside of the deck where the chain plate passes through it is also solid with no cracking. Where the chain plate passes through the deck there also appears to be a collar of some sort that provides a water tight seal around the penetration. The previous owner said they recently rebedded them and no water leaking issues so I am leaving those alone for now.
I don't want to be too naive and that is why I am considering two preventative measures to keep an eye on the aging hardware. The first to buy a dye test kit, which would reveal any invisible to the eye cracks in the stainless steel that is exposed. I also thought of putting "match marks" on the fiberglass and stainless steel, and every few weeks check where the marks were made and any major movement should be noticeable.
Not sure if any of this helps or makes sense but it is what I have come up with as a first tome sailboat owner. I also have the benefit of my boat being from the Great Lakes region and living in fresh water its whole life, and being on the hard for my time during the year then out on the water. Because of this I like to think of my boat as only 15 years old instead of 30+.

I guess it is largely a crap shoot. I think If I were to replace the rigging stays, I would go ahead and make the modification to take the chain plates to the outside of the boat. For now, I will most likely let the rigging ride one more season and undergo the modification next year. It is certainly time... Still curious why I have gotten so few responses from other E27 / E29 owners. We all own this problem... would be comforting to know just how many failures there have been in the last 5 years...
 

paul culver

Member III
Okay, I'll reply for my E29. I changed out my standing rigging 3 years ago and did nothing to the chain plates other than rebedding the metal flanges that surround them on the deck. The boat is 1977 vintage. At the time of the rigging refit I was told that the original turnbuckles I had were recalled many years ago because of failure. So many potential ways to lose the mast that I have surrendered to the bliss of ignorance.

Paul
E29 "Bear"
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
My boat is over 40 years old and no chainplate problems yet. Why fix something that you don't know is broken. Replace the standing rigging and trust the force.
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hey Scott- That's my e27 in the photo Loren showed. Soon to be de-listed from the brokerage and back in regular use by us.

If you have reason to suspect that your boat has been mistreated in the past, and you find significant core damage and chainplate leakage you might consider doing this job, especially if its been in salt water. There are reports of failures, but they are rare. Although when they do happen it can by pretty devastating. You can find some accounts on this website if you search. With this in mind, and finding that my boat had egged out holes in the chainplates from undersized pins, terrible core damage all around the chainplates and rust stains where the chainplates met the hull, I was very concerned about this. Given how bad the overall condition of the boat was I decided to go for it. When I actually cut them off, though they seemed in pretty good shape, so I maybe didn't need to do it (the boat had been in freshwater for some time). Oh well.

As for cost, I think I spent ~600 on the chainplates (John Justin I think was the guys name of Custom Marine in CA) and under $2000 on the rigging (www.riggingonly.com). Since the chainplates changed the length of the rigging, I had to use Hayn Hi-Mod lower terminals (except for the forestaty so the furler wouldn't unscrew it) and fit them as the mast was stepped.

One word of advice that I got from Brion Toss (rigger from Port Townsend area) when he inspected the chainplate arrangement. He mentioned that he would have reduced the overall length of unsupported chainplate above the toe-rail a little to reduce flexing and twisting, but he felt that the overall design was robust.

You can find a lot more detail of how I did this job at www.plasticclassicforum.com/forum under Projects, Ericson 27 Project. Feel free to contact me back channel if you have questions.



Doug
 
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PDX

Member III
E29s and E27s weren't the only ones with glassed in chainplates. E30s and E31s had it too. I've never heard of a failure with either although those boats were built in much smaller numbers than the E27/29.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Chainplate thoughts

E29s and E27s weren't the only ones with glassed in chainplates. E30s and E31s had it too. I've never heard of a failure with either although those boats were built in much smaller numbers than the E27/29.

So true.
Further... glassed-in chainplates were standard on a LOT of other boats in that era. Among others, all of the early Cascades had 'em; and all those older 29, 36, and 42's have racked up tens of thousands of sea miles - and are still doing so.
Strictly IMHO, but it was the fashion to widen out boats in the early 70's to maximize beam (first, to have them fit in better with the early IOR measurement scheme and then next it was done on boats never intended to rate well under the IOR just to have a lot more interior living space).

That put pressure on designers and builders to move the chainplate attachment inboard to keep sheeting angles the same as the earlier designs. While you can sheet "shorter" jibs inside the shrouds like our new 95%, as we do with the forward inside tracks on our boat, you need the shroud bases inboard to sheet any larger-overlap jibs to the deck tracks further aft.
:nerd:

As the rigging loads were moved inwards, and the forces built up exponentially, increased engineering, materials, and labor costs quickly emerged.

Gotta say, I like the room inside my boat. But all that space comes along with an engineered rig system ($$) to bring the high shroud loads down thru the deck and transfer those loads via thick ss rods to honkin' large frp moldings glassed heavily to our hull, behind each settee.
Quite similar to the Ericson's on the 80's and beyond, too.

Speaking only to costs, it's less expensive to glass in (or fasten 'em externally) chainplates to a beefed-up hull side.

I guess it's like the old saying about there being "no free lunch".
:rolleyes:


Cheers,
Loren

ps: in these modern times, you could replace the original ss with titanium, or even fabricated carbon fiber/epoxy pieces.
 
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Emerald

Moderator
E29s and E27s weren't the only ones with glassed in chainplates. E30s and E31s had it too. I've never heard of a failure with either although those boats were built in much smaller numbers than the E27/29.

I'm pretty sure one E31 had a single chainplate failure and then replaced all of them with externally attached chainplates.

I've often eyeballed mine wondering what's going on under the glass. I am one of the last hulls with aluminum chainplates before Ericson switched to stainless.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
I decided to ignore it for the time being. My boat has mostly lived in freshwater. The rigging had a lot of lichen on it when it came to me, but I went over it inch by inch after cleaning and I couldn't find any obvious signs of wear.

Sometimes I see interior pictures of E29's that seem to have an "extra" chainplate bolted to the bulkhead. I haven't figured out what's going on there...:confused:
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Toddster, on our 1984 E30+ the cap shroud is attached to a chainplate that is bolted directly through the bulkhead with about 7 heavy duty bolts. The intermediate and lower shrouds are attached to two tie rods just aft of the bulkhead. I suspect that arrangement is what you have seen on the E29 as you mentioned in your post above. I'm guessing that it all has to do with where the shrouds are positioned on the deck in relation to the bulkhead vs. needing tie rods.

Frank
 

Ike

Member I
A timely thread!

I've done a fair bit of searching on the forum here for specs on the 27's standing rigging and have come up short. What diameter wire have folks used in replacing the standing rigging, and what came stock? In the rigging diagram in the PDF based manual it specs the forestay and backstay at 5/32's but says nothing about the shrouds. I'm guessing that 3/16's is an upgrade for this boat ...?

ah - apparently not enough searching! Found the proper Owners Manual and the E-27 rigging is spec'd at 5/32 for all of it, while the E-29 is 7/32. Good info also in this thread:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?2882-Replacement-of-Standing-Rigging/page2


Right now I am on the fence as to re-rigging the boat with 3/16's 316SS 1x19 using Sta-loks and open turnbuckles, or Dyneema Dux in 5mm using Colligo terminators/distributors and lashings. I really like the idea of using Dux. Despite the cost difference in wire vs. rope, the Sta-lok stuff ain't cheap. I'll be taking the mast down at the yard and refurbishing it on the hard before re-rigging the boat.

Going to give Colligo a call tomorrow to see what they advise.

cheers,
Ike

'74 E-27 s/v Skol
Berkeley, CA
 
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Ike

Member I
Hey Scott- That's my e27 in the photo Loren showed. Soon to be de-listed from the brokerage and back in regular use by us.

--- 8< -------
Doug

Congrats on keeping the boat! I really like how your external plates turned out but I've been wondering how it's affected your sheeting angles when flying genoas? Any trouble with chafe on the sails or the sheets?

Great looking boat. I wish Skol were half as clean.

cheers,
Ike
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I'll have to dig up my specs on the rigging. I think 3/16, but I'll double check when I can find the files (new computer!).

As for sheeting angles, I have a 145 jib on there now that came from another boat, and it never touches the rigging anyway! So I can't really answer that question. It probably does affect how close you can get on smaller jibs.

Doug

Edit: my notes from a consultation with Brion Toss show the following:


Existing rigging is all 3/16 (when I got the boat)

Shroud calculations
• 6000 lbs on upper shrouds
• Use 7/32 on uppers and forestay
• Use 3/16 on lowers and backstay
• Use 3/8 pins and turnbuckles on upper and lowers

When I ran the righting moment numbers from The Rigger's Apprentice, I got 5,956 lbs max load on the upper shrouds and 4,301 lbs on the lowers so at least he was consistent in his application of his materials! Breaking strength of 3/16 1x19 wire is 4,700 lbs and 7/32 1x19 wire is 6,300 lbs.

Double check your numbers though, I am looking at an old spreadsheet!

Hope this helps
 
Last edited:

Ike

Member I
Doug, many thanks for digging up your numbers. Given the O.E. spec of the original rig that sounds right on the money.

For anyone curious about synthetics vs. SS wire: I've been pricing out my rigging as a strictly DIY project using the online published prices from Colligo Marine and Rigging Only to have a good baseline idea of what I'm looking at before talking with either.

Synthetics: initial estimates are looking like roughly $1800 using Dynex Dux and Colligo's excellent looking fastener bits. 7mm on the forestay and backstay and uppers, and 5mm lowers. Colligo deadeyes and dyneema lashings at the chainplates, and then replacing O.E. tangs with their "cheeky tangs" that provide the proper radius at the mast for fitment.

Traditional: using 316SS 1x19 and Sta-loks, initial estimate is approximately $1100 for a mix of 7/32's and 3/16's as Doug has described. This includes using Sta-lok's open turnbuckles with 3/8's pins at the chainplates, and Sta-lok eyes on the upper end at the mast.

In both cases there's probably $200 ~ $300 additional to cover surprises.

cheers,
Ike

s/v Skol
Berkeley, CA
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hey Ike, one other thing I forgot to mention. Check your pin size at the chainplate. I checked my notes again and they were originally 5/16. I actually enlarged the holes on my new chainplates from 5/16 to 3/8 after I got them based on Brion Toss' recommendation. I very carefully measured and calculated to make sure I had enough meat to do this (I had plenty). So double check the original chainplate pin size too.

I don't have any calculations for 5/16 pin strength, but that could be the limiting factor in the rigging, making upsizing to 7/32 wire pointless. And if I remember correctly there wasn't alot of meat on the factory chainplates to allow drilling out to 3/8, especially since it would be done in-situ with little ability to control the cutting. That is if you could even reach it with a heavy duty drill!

Lots to consider, but that's what keeps boat ownership interesting and fun.
 

Scott Abbott

Member III
Hey Scott- That's my e27 in the photo Loren showed. Soon to be de-listed from the brokerage and back in regular use by us.

If you have reason to suspect that your boat has been mistreated in the past, and you find significant core damage and chainplate leakage you might consider doing this job, especially if its been in salt water. There are reports of failures, but they are rare. Although when they do happen it can by pretty devastating. You can find some accounts on this website if you search. With this in mind, and finding that my boat had egged out holes in the chainplates from undersized pins, terrible core damage all around the chainplates and rust stains where the chainplates met the hull, I was very concerned about this. Given how bad the overall condition of the boat was I decided to go for it. When I actually cut them off, though they seemed in pretty good shape, so I maybe didn't need to do it (the boat had been in freshwater for some time). Oh well.

As for cost, I think I spent ~600 on the chainplates (John Justin I think was the guys name of Custom Marine in CA) and under $2000 on the rigging (www.riggingonly.com). Since the chainplates changed the length of the rigging, I had to use Hayn Hi-Mod lower terminals (except for the forestaty so the furler wouldn't unscrew it) and fit them as the mast was stepped.

One word of advice that I got from Brion Toss (rigger from Port Townsend area) when he inspected the chainplate arrangement. He mentioned that he would have reduced the overall length of unsupported chainplate above the toe-rail a little to reduce flexing and twisting, but he felt that the overall design was robust.

You can find a lot more detail of how I did this job at www.plasticclassicforum.com/forum under Projects, Ericson 27 Project. Feel free to contact me back channel if you have questions.



Doug

Thank Doug...Your boat is inspiring. That thing is in such great looking shape. I will check out the link you provided me. To have the yard to just replace the rigging, I am getting quotes at $3,000 to $3347! Can I get this stuff made and mailed to me from the specs of the boat? The chain plate modification is a whole different story. Why not modify only the center shrouds to external chain plate to provide some insurance. 1/3 of the cost right?
 
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