E39 Close Reach 8.1 kts

We had an interesting sail this weekend in the local Icicle Regatta. The first leg was a close reach with 22kts of apparent wind. We were heeled pretty far under 130% genoa and full main. The helm was quite heavy, but we managed to keep our course all the way to the mark. We averaged probably 7.9kts and hit 8.1 kts along the way.

8.1 knots translates to a minimum of 36.5' of waterline and our boat has a listed waterline of 30'. Heeling is our friend. But that much heel creates all that weatherhelm. I felt at times that our main wasn't doing a darn thing, the wash from the genoa was backwinding the front half of the main and at times the whole main. But the boat just plowed on.

We need the waterline to make that kind of speed, can we do anything about the weatherhelm that accompanies that condition? Can we have our cake and eat it too?
Is there some way to measure out the waterline vs heel angle? I've got a inclinometer to install, it just hasn't reached the top of the list yet.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Chris

Hi Chris,

I'll be really interested in how others respond to this (Seth, where are you? ). I have had similar sails in our E30+ where the boat is going much faster than the hull speed formula would think possible, heeled over, crashing through the waves, etc.

While this kind of sail is exhilarating, I have found that some adjustments allow me to maintain speed with less weather helm and less heel--ie. a more comfortable sail. Although your E38 will be different than our E30+, I would have fully tensioned the halyard, cunningham, boom vang, outhaul and back stay adjuster to flatten the mainsail, likely added a reef in the mainsail, maybe played the traveller a bit to reduce heel (ie. traveller to leeward a bit), tensioned the headsail by tightening the halyard and ensuring the cars/blocks are positioned correctly.

You might have already done all of these things (though I think you mentioned keeping a full mainsail), but at least this is what I would do, food for thought... I think taking these steps would likely not have reduced speed, but would make it more comfortable and less of a struggle with weather helm.

Frank

Hi Frank-
I had the main as flat as I could make it, but everything is going to get a little extra muscle next time. We have brand new tri-radial sails, so there isn't as much adjustment to the shape. Outhaul was as tight as I could make it, cunningham was on tight. The funny thing was I just let the main sheet go a couple of times and the main just bounced along on the wash from the genoa with no apparent change to weather helm or speed. Our headsail was doing all the work both driving and balancing.

On the genoa I have some improvements to the trim to make. I got some pics from the race and noticed that my genoa halyard wasn't as tight as it should have been. When we initially bent on the sails I tried to bounce the halyard up with Lisa tailing, but that didn't do it. I led the halyard aft and winched it up, but we have more to go.

The sheet leads were fine, the telltales were all streaming, but I will experiment with moving the leads back a skosh to open up the leech a bit more. The same pics showed my forestay with a pretty good wang to it, so I might consider tightening that as well.

We made notes and look forward to trying again. I think I can beat that Hanse 415 to the mark next time.

Thanks for the reply!

Chris

I was thinking pretty much what Frank was. Ease the traveler and put a reef in the main. Granted as a cutter and modified full keel, the Independence 31 is a bit different from the E39, but I find she balances beautifully in those conditions with a reefed main and full yankee and no staysail. Of note, my yankee is probably about a 110% in sloop perspective and has a very high clue, but you get the idea.

I am learning that when weather helm becomes a problem, it's time to reef the main. I'm far from an expert but that's what we do....

By the way we have exceeded the hull speed on our Ericson too.

Congrats!

Chris,

I'm wondering if you considered reefing the mainsail, or is that too hard to do in the race while underway? Alternatively, if you had reefed/furled the genoa a bit, would that have allowed the mainsail to function more effectively?

If you haven't done so, going for a sail on a similar breezy day and sailing by main alone, then genoa alone, then various combinations of reefed main and genoa might give you useful information about your boat performance in different conditions. I'm guessing that you probably know this, but might be useful for others.

I think beating the Hanse 41 should be a piece of cake!!

Frank

My 2 cents...

gadangit said:

We had an interesting sail this weekend in the local Icicle Regatta. The first leg was a close reach with 22kts of apparent wind. We were heeled pretty far under 130% genoa and full main. The helm was quite heavy, but we managed to keep our course all the way to the mark. We averaged probably 7.9kts and hit 8.1 kts along the way.

8.1 knots translates to a minimum of 36.5' of waterline and our boat has a listed waterline of 30'. Heeling is our friend. But that much heel creates all that weatherhelm. I felt at times that our main wasn't doing a darn thing, the wash from the genoa was backwinding the front half of the main and at times the whole main. But the boat just plowed on.

We need the waterline to make that kind of speed, can we do anything about the weatherhelm that accompanies that condition? Can we have our cake and eat it too?
Is there some way to measure out the waterline vs heel angle? I've got a inclinometer to install, it just hasn't reached the top of the list yet.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Chris

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I agree with what others have posted about reefing your main and that you might want to move your headsail leads aft but there are some other things you can try as well. Can you move your headsail leads outboard? There are ways to do this without having to re-run the sheets. When you're that overpowered it often helps to open the slot.

As for vang, if I'm reading your post correctly you tensioned the vang to try to flatten the sail? If so, you might want to try loosening the vang to get more twist in the main and thus allow it spill some wind where it has the most leverage to heel your boat (near the head).

Are the speeds you mention from GPS or from your knot meter? If GPS then consider the impact of things like current (tidal or otherwise). Hull speed is not an absolute, it's just a point at which the energy required to go any faster becomes much higher.

Another thought regarding speed that may help you with your racing. Forgive me if you already know this but I'll mention it just in case it helps. There is a big difference between velocity made good (VMG) and speed over ground (SOG). VMG is the speed you are making towards a certain point. SOG is the speed you are moving (in whatever direction you happen to be moving) relative to the bottom of the ocean (the ground). For example, if you're moving at 8 knots relative to the ground, but you're sailing in a large curved path towards a fixed waypoint your SOG will be higher than your VMG. If you sail towards the same waypoint but follow a direct line to it then your SOG and VMG are the same.

Here's a key thing to remember when sailing upwind, especially when racing- you go fast by focusing on minimizing how much you go sideways rather than only how fast you go through the water. In other words, focus on maximizing VMG not SOG.

An easy way to do this is to put the weather mark into your GPS then monitor VMG and SOG. Generally the closer you get those numbers the better you're doing in terms of speed.

When you're as overpowered as you describe you may be screaming along but you're also experiencing a lot of leeway (going sideways) and your VMG suffers greatly as a result. That's why it can actually be faster going upwind to reduce sail area and have a slower "hull speed" through the water (but better VMG).

As for the proper amount of heel it varies for different boats and to an extent the water conditions but generally "flat is fast" in that with excessive heel (beyond let's say 15-20 degrees) you start loosing too much lift off the keel, gain leeway, and your VMG tanks.

By the way, you're right to notice the excessive weather helm. It's a good clue that while you may feel you're going fast you're actually going slower in terms of upwind progress. Not just because of leeway but also the huge amount of drag the rudder is creating.

A final thought - if you're just trying to have fun and scream around the water then sailing ridiculously overpowered can create some thrills. Plus I think it's good to learn to handle your boat in a wide range of conditions and trim. If nothing else so you can learn to manage the situation while you take steps to get her back on her feet.

Good luck, I hope I'm not saying anything stupid and that this helps!

Frank Langer said:

Chris,

I'm wondering if you considered reefing the mainsail, or is that too hard to do in the race while underway? Alternatively, if you had reefed/furled the genoa a bit, would that have allowed the mainsail to function more effectively?

If you haven't done so, going for a sail on a similar breezy day and sailing by main alone, then genoa alone, then various combinations of reefed main and genoa might give you useful information about your boat performance in different conditions. I'm guessing that you probably know this, but might be useful for others.

I think beating the Hanse 41 should be a piece of cake!!

Frank

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Reefing mid leg really isn't possible. I didn't see the need to change anything, heck we were doing 8kts while holding our heading!! Other than the weather helm the boat was pretty smooth.

The great thing about a regatta is it forces you to sail on this day, in that wind, on that course. Lisa would point out that it doesn't force us to sail with great abandon. But we race j-80s and j-105s all the time, crew comfort comes secondary when racing.

I think the weather helm is more due to the heel than with the main being reefed or not. Letting the main drop down the traveller did nothing for the speed or heel. The question becomes: is that level of heel really equivalent to 36.5 of waterline or was I giving away speed due to too much rudder. If I heel less I lose waterline and hence speed.

Chris

gadangit said:

Reefing mid leg really isn't possible. I didn't see the need to change anything, heck we were doing 8kts while holding our heading!! Other than the weather helm the boat was pretty smooth.

The great thing about a regatta is it forces you to sail on this day, in that wind, on that course. Lisa would point out that it doesn't force us to sail with great abandon. But we race j-80s and j-105s all the time, crew comfort comes secondary when racing.

I think the weather helm is more due to the heel than with the main being reefed or not. Letting the main drop down the traveller did nothing for the speed or heel. The question becomes: is that level of heel really equivalent to 36.5 of waterline or was I giving away speed due to too much rudder. If I heel less I lose waterline and hence speed.

Chris

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You can be "holding your heading" and still be actually moving sideways (leeway) enough to have a significant impact on your upwind performance. Saying you're going "8kts" doesn't mean anything by itself unless you put it in context. 8kts measured by GPS, knotmeter, vmg, etc can all be different things. Excessive weather helm is slow (always) despite whatever your knot meter says. Or at least slower than you could be going. The answer to your question is yes. You were giving away speed due to too much rudder (and too much leeway). Waterline length is not the main consideration in upwind speed to a set mark. Way less important than leeway and rudder drag. You excessive weather helm is most likely from a combination of things including the excessive heel you mention but based on the information you posted I'd say it's pretty clear you were carrying too much sail as well (which is partly why you were heeling so much!) Even if you say you can't reef mid leg you can still dump vang, move headsail lead aft and outboard, crank on cunningham and outhaul, etc. By the way, depending on how you're rigged the vang might not be the primary control of sail twist upwind. Often you can get twist by bringing the travel to windward and controlling twist with mainsheet. Then you can sheet in and out with velocity changes etc using the travel while maintaining the desired twist.

One final thought- sometimes your boat speed doesn't mean squat if you're not on the favored tack.

Ryan L said:

You can be "holding your heading" and still be actually moving sideways (leeway) enough to have a significant impact on your upwind performance. Saying you're going "8kts" doesn't mean anything by itself unless you put it in context. 8kts measured by GPS, knotmeter, vmg, etc can all be different things. Excessive weather helm is slow (always) despite whatever your knot meter says. Or at least slower than you could be going. The answer to your question is yes. You were giving away speed due to too much rudder (and too much leeway). Waterline length is not the main consideration in upwind speed to a set mark. Way less important than leeway and rudder drag. You excessive weather helm is most likely from a combination of things including the excessive heel you mention but based on the information you posted I'd say it's pretty clear you were carrying too much sail as well (which is partly why you were heeling so much!)

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Hi Ryan-
I understand the leeway problem. Our track shows no leeway and a bias upwind. Is there such a thing as leeway upwind? We don't have a knotmeter only our trusty iNavx. Galveston Bay has some current, but not what you see in bigger deeper bays. If anything that day the south wind would have been pushing the water north (the whole bay is 10' deep) and we held a pretty tight line due east with bias south into the wind and to ensure we made the mark. Unfortunately my tracks don't record VMG, but I am always glancing at that.

I completely understand your points about VMG. I race every week on other j-boats. The question becomes this: assume my boat is completely flat in the water, no heel. I have 30' of waterline to work with and no matter how I set my sails I will never be able to ride over my own wave. My speed limit is 7.55kts, taking the theory at face value. Do we agree that some level of heel is needed in order to make the boat go faster than that? Based on the shape of the hull and design of the boat I'd say yes. And there is a point where rudder drag defeats the point of allowing heel to increase waterline to increase theoretical hull speed (and weather helm.) What is that point on this boat?

It seems as if the lee helm created by an overpowered headsail will help counter act the weather helm of a very heeled boat. The main was adding very little to the weather helm, it was all due to heel.

Yes, I would say at face value we were over canvassed. Lisa would give an enthusiastic thumbs up to that vote. But we stayed with our PHRF rating competitor boats, so it could not have been that far off.

Good thoughts, I appreciate what you wrote.
Chris

Ryan L said:

One final thought- sometimes your boat speed doesn't mean squat if you're not on the favored tack.

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Agreed! We were on a pursuit triangle course close reaching. No choice on the favored tack for that leg.

Chris

Heeling bad, lining windward rail with pumpkins good.

Great thread!!

gadangit said:

Hi Ryan-
I understand the leeway problem. Our track shows no leeway and a bias upwind. Is there such a thing as leeway upwind? We don't have a knotmeter only our trusty iNavx. Galveston Bay has some current, but not what you see in bigger deeper bays. If anything that day the south wind would have been pushing the water north (the whole bay is 10' deep) and we held a pretty tight line due east with bias south into the wind and to ensure we made the mark. Unfortunately my tracks don't record VMG, but I am always glancing at that.

Click to expand...

No such thing as "leeway upwind" (that I know of) unless there's a favorable current. Maybe the current is stronger than you think? We won a national championship regatta last year partly by using current to our advantage in one particular race. We split from the fleet and took the side that was clearly not favored just in terms of wind but we ultimately gained more overall due to current and ended up first around the mark. The current in that case was not very strong, probably a knot or less, but it made a huge difference. Given the amount of heel you're describing and the other factors you mention it's my opinion that you MUST have had excessive leeway. If your track was a straight then I figure either current was helping more than you suspect or you had a more southerly "bias" than you would have otherwise needed if your boat was being sailed more efficiently. I just don't see any way that it's faster to sail that overpowered? Unless maybe you were not on as close a reach as I'm imagining? I assumed you were sailing a beat but I think somewhere you mentioned it was actually a close reach? Maybe it was in fact a looser reach than you imagine but felt like a close reach because of the amount of "bias" you had to use to compensate for leeway? In that case you definitely would have been faster to get the boat back on her feet.

gadangit said:

I completely understand your points about VMG. I race every week on other j-boats. The question becomes this: assume my boat is completely flat in the water, no heel. I have 30' of waterline to work with and no matter how I set my sails I will never be able to ride over my own wave. My speed limit is 7.55kts, taking the theory at face value. Do we agree that some level of heel is needed in order to make the boat go faster than that? Based on the shape of the hull and design of the boat I'd say yes. And there is a point where rudder drag defeats the point of allowing heel to increase waterline to increase theoretical hull speed (and weather helm.) What is that point on this boat?

It seems as if the lee helm created by an overpowered headsail will help counter act the weather helm of a very heeled boat. The main was adding very little to the weather helm, it was all due to heel.

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Yes I agree that some heel is helpful but I don't think it's as much related to waterline length as you're suggesting. Waterline length can increase some but so can drag depending on how beamy the boat is. I did a google search to find something that explains all this better than I can and found this article - http://www.sailingworld.com/experts/how-heel-affects-speed-and-handling A lot of the benefit of heel has to do more with helm and balance than waterline length. I understand what your suggesting but I still think excessive heel is certainly slower (even with an "overpowered headsail") even though it may have increased waterline. Another example from personal experience- we placed 2nd overall at an ISAF World Cup regatta about a year ago largely due to our results on the windiest day of racing. We were in Sonars, three person keelboats similar to J-24s. There were a number of factors at play but the top boats all pretty much stayed in phase with the shifts and were tuned similarly. Ultimately we were faster largely because we kept our boat as flat as possible (limited excessive heel), something the other boats were struggling with. Excessive leeway and drag from too much heel and subsequent rudder makes a huge difference. I think much more loss than any benefit gained from waterline.

gadangit said:

Yes, I would say at face value we were over canvassed. Lisa would give an enthusiastic thumbs up to that vote. But we stayed with our PHRF rating competitor boats, so it could not have been that far off.

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Lisa sounds like a smart woman! As for the other boats, the fact that you stayed with them is not a good indicator of trim and speed. The fact that you're PASSING them is!

gadangit said:

Good thoughts, I appreciate what you wrote.
Chris

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Me too, I'm enjoying this thread and your thoughts. Thank you!

Ryan L said:

No such thing as "leeway upwind" (that I know of) unless there's a favorable current. Maybe the current is stronger than you think? We won a national championship regatta last year partly by using current to our advantage in one particular race. We split from the fleet and took the side that was clearly not favored just in terms of wind but we ultimately gained more overall due to current and ended up first around the mark. The current in that case was not very strong, probably a knot or less, but it made a huge difference. Given the amount of heel you're describing and the other factors you mention it's my opinion that you MUST have had excessive leeway. If your track was a straight then I figure either current was helping more than you suspect or you had a more southerly "bias" than you would have otherwise needed if your boat was being sailed more efficiently. I just don't see any way that it's faster to sail that overpowered? Unless maybe you were not on as close a reach as I'm imagining? I assumed you were sailing a beat but I think somewhere you mentioned it was actually a close reach? Maybe it was in fact a looser reach than you imagine but felt like a close reach because of the amount of "bias" you had to use to compensate for leeway? In that case you definitely would have been faster to get the boat back on her feet.



Yes I agree that some heel is helpful but I don't think it's as much related to waterline length as you're suggesting. Waterline length can increase some but so can drag depending on how beamy the boat is. I did a google search to find something that explains all this better than I can and found this article - http://www.sailingworld.com/experts/how-heel-affects-speed-and-handling A lot of the benefit of heel has to do more with helm and balance than waterline length. I understand what your suggesting but I still think excessive heel is certainly slower (even with an "overpowered headsail") even though it may have increased waterline. Another example from personal experience- we placed 2nd overall at an ISAF World Cup regatta about a year ago largely due to our results on the windiest day of racing. We were in Sonars, three person keelboats similar to J-24s. There were a number of factors at play but the top boats all pretty much stayed in phase with the shifts and were tuned similarly. Ultimately we were faster largely because we kept our boat as flat as possible (limited excessive heel), something the other boats were struggling with. Excessive leeway and drag from too much heel and subsequent rudder makes a huge difference. I think much more loss than any benefit gained from waterline.



Lisa sounds like a smart woman! As for the other boats, the fact that you stayed with them is not a good indicator of trim and speed. The fact that you're PASSING them is!



Me too, I'm enjoying this thread and your thoughts. Thank you!

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Hi Ryan-
The article you linked describes perfectly what I am trying to get across. We have a 39' boat with 30' of waterline with a noticeable tumblehome. There is no way we would have a 114 PHRF if someone hasn't figured that our effective waterline at optimal heel isn't longer than 30'. We have 9500lbs of lead keel and our boat is listed a 19,000lbs. It is going to take some effort to heel this boat all the way to it's optimal heel to maximize the waterline while minimizing the effort to keep it tracking.

All the boats you mentioned have planing hulls with high aspect keels and rudders. All of the foils quickly lose lift when excessively heeled. I've done 17kts on a J-80 reaching with a spinnaker, so clearly waterline makes no difference on those boats.

I know what leeway is and I guess you'll have to take my word that we had enough leeway to sail the boat, but leeway had absolutely no bearing on our boatspeed. As for current, I can't say for sure there was no current, but I can say with a good bit of confidence there wasn't much. And if there was it was in the leeward direction. I'll be putting on the inclinometer this week to add to the data points. We'll get this figure out!

Chris

She will go even faster reefed

Really. Tuck a reef in and she will go even faster.

You should be able to reef going to weather, it should be easy.

There is nothing like a 39 with a bone in her teeth, tearing along.... Except a 46 with a bone in her teeth, tearing along, lots of the same feelings...

The angle of heal doesn't help as much as the weather helm hurts in that situation.

Have you modified the rudder or is it original? If modded which one?

Sounds like a great sail!

Guy

gadangit said:

Hi Ryan-
The article you linked describes perfectly what I am trying to get across. We have a 39' boat with 30' of waterline with a noticeable tumblehome. There is no way we would have a 114 PHRF if someone hasn't figured that our effective waterline at optimal heel isn't longer than 30'. We have 9500lbs of lead keel and our boat is listed a 19,000lbs. It is going to take some effort to heel this boat all the way to it's optimal heel to maximize the waterline while minimizing the effort to keep it tracking.

All the boats you mentioned have planing hulls with high aspect keels and rudders. All of the foils quickly lose lift when excessively heeled. I've done 17kts on a J-80 reaching with a spinnaker, so clearly waterline makes no difference on those boats.

I know what leeway is and I guess you'll have to take my word that we had enough leeway to sail the boat, but leeway had absolutely no bearing on our boatspeed. As for current, I can't say for sure there was no current, but I can say with a good bit of confidence there wasn't much. And if there was it was in the leeward direction. I'll be putting on the inclinometer this week to add to the data points. We'll get this figure out!

Chris

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Well, the Sonar is hardly a planing hull but I agree it's not an E39... I think maybe we're comparing apples/oranges? I agree some heel is faster, and partly for the reasons you mention. And I agree that leeway may not have had bearing on your boat speed. But I also stick to my contention when you're that overpowered leeway has an increased negative impact on your vmg to the weather mark. An impact that may be more significant than any gains due to waterline length. I guess the best way to find out is for you to fly to San Diego, we'll drink a few beers, then go around the buoys a few times to find out! But only if you promise to teach me how to get "upwind leeway."

DLW vs. waterline under way

Strictly in the "FWIW" dept, we have done 9 kts on a reach with the 135 genny, with no effort. Boat was heeled slightly but not too much IIRC.
I have sailed it to weather with the new 95% jib at 7 kts in about 12 kts true. Did the same speed another day with a reef in the main in about 18 true. (Photo below from the 12 knot day)
Our boat is Not a planning hull, but does have a flatter run aft in its hull shape.

Looking at a photo, it is putting about 31 or 32 feet of hull in the water at this speed.
Measured DLW is about 28 feet at rest. The extra immersed hull length as speed increases must be the reason.
We do 7 kts under power at about 2500 to 2600 rpm cruising revs, too.

At around 11K displ. we are not in any way an ultra-light, and also no way a planning hull.

Loren

Ryan L said:

Well, the Sonar is hardly a planing hull but I agree it's not an E39... I think maybe we're comparing apples/oranges? I agree some heel is faster, and partly for the reasons you mention. And I agree that leeway may not have had bearing on your boat speed. But I also stick to my contention when you're that overpowered leeway has an increased negative impact on your vmg to the weather mark. An impact that may be more significant than any gains due to waterline length. I guess the best way to find out is for you to fly to San Diego, we'll drink a few beers, then go around the buoys a few times to find out! But only if you promise to teach me how to get "upwind leeway."

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Sold! I was stationed at North Island and lived in PB for a few years. I sometimes wonder why I ever left! We sailed in the bay a few years ago and loved every bit of it.

I did some math off the chart plotter and I can't get an exact distance between what we traveled and the distance between way points. 2.61nm between start and mark, we traveled somewhere around 2.65nm, the track points being too coarse to get an exact number with the XTE to windward not leeward. We averaged 7.34kts with a low of 6.0kts at the start (I broke part of the primary self tailer right at the start) and the aforementioned 8.1kts midway.

For sure we need to reduce weatherhelm, but I know I can't sail that speed if I'm flat. There has to be a spot of perfection in there somewhere. Lisa and I talked about it over dinner and she insists that we reduce the heel. Smart woman she is.

Chris

Loren Beach said:

Strictly in the "FWIW" dept, we have done 9 kts on a reach with the 135 genny, with no effort. Boat was heeled slightly but not too much IIRC.
I have sailed it to weather with the new 95% jib at 7 kts in about 12 kts true. Did the same speed another day with a reef in the main in about 18 true.
Our boat is Not a planning hull, but does have a flatter run aft in its hull shape.

Looking at a photo, it is putting about 31 or 32 feet of hull in the water at this speed.
Measured DLW is about 28 feet at rest. The extra immersed hull length as speed increases must be the reason.
We do 7 kts under power at about 2500 to 2600 rpm cruising revs, too.

At around 11K displ. we are not in any way an ultra-light, and also no way a planning hull.

Loren

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Hi Loren-
I can say for sure our boat was not heeled any further than that on Saturday. Thanks for the visual.

Chris

Guy Stevens said:

Really. Tuck a reef in and she will go even faster.

You should be able to reef going to weather, it should be easy.

There is nothing like a 39 with a bone in her teeth, tearing along.... Except a 46 with a bone in her teeth, tearing along, lots of the same feelings...

The angle of heal doesn't help as much as the weather helm hurts in that situation.

Have you modified the rudder or is it original? If modded which one?

Sounds like a great sail!

Guy

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I used Bruce King's modified rudder design when I rebuilt the rudder.

I considered reefing halfway through that leg and decided against it. We were short handed, only 3 people. We were planning on raising the kite at the mark for the downwind run and shaking out the reef was just one more thing to deal with. I was happy with the first leg when we kept up with our similarly rated boats, but I get the sense we left some time on the water. I'll be looking for that time on the next one.

Chris