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    March Meeting Info

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Poll: Glow Plug Time

How Long do You Energize Your Glow Plugs?

  • Less than 10 seconds

    Votes: 8 14.8%
  • 10-20

    Votes: 23 42.6%
  • 20-30

    Votes: 14 25.9%
  • More than 30 seconds

    Votes: 9 16.7%

  • Total voters
    54

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Lately my M25 requires 10-15 seconds of cranking at 60F. I probably have a glow plug or wiring issue.

How long do you energize your glow plugs?

Maine Sail warns against long glow plug excitation. He says, if I recall, that his engine starts after three seconds of glow plugs.

He suggests that glow plugs can be cooked by energizing them unnecessarily long.

Yet the M25 manual says 30 seconds. And when an engine is slow to start, most of us use more.

And--how long does your diesel typically crank before starting?
 
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supersailor

Contributing Partner
Christian,

At 60 degrees, I turn the glow plugs on for 30 seconds. The M 25 XP starts in the first 3-4 spins of the starter. The easiest way to check the plugs is to take off the engine cover then energize the plugs for a few seconds then go below and see if all them have started to warm up.

Bob Morrison
Terra Nova E-34
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
From another post today

"Slow cranking and battery problem solved for me......


A few months ago the admiral and I set off on a week long cruise down the coast. The winds were on the nose in the ICW so we had to do a significant amount if motoring.


We tried to sail as much as possible and had to sail, start the engine, sail, start the engine..... On one start the engine barely cranked which led me to discover I needed a new start switch. Luckily I contacted a mechanic buddy who picked up a new one at WM (not Walmart....) and installed it.


While he was down there, he rewired my starting circuit so it would no longer require holding the glow plug button when cranking. My starting process was to hold the glow plug button for 10-15 seconds then crank. This sucked a bunch of power from my starting battery (AGM) . So much so that I replaced the battery last summer thinking it was faulty.


With the new wiring setup I no longer have to engage the glow plugs to fire the engine (unless it's cold and I want to).


The engine now fires up fast......ah miracles!"

My Universal dealer told me that I shouldn't have to use the glow plugs unless it was really cold. When it is 20 seconds max. The manual says longer.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Engine cranking

Rick,

Agreed about the rewire. I separated the glow plugs from the starter as soon as I got the boat. The glow plugs are only needed when the engine is cold. Its dumb to have to push both buttons all the time when starting. When cold, I find that 30 seconds are needed but I'm in the North West and a cold engine is cold up here. I am rewiring the engine this winter and putting a relay in for the glow plugs. This will vastly shorten the load wire for the plugs and take a big load off the Glow Plug button. My button melted in the on position causing lots of nasty problems. It also hopefully will allow the plugs to warm up quicker as there will be less resistance in the wire.

Bob Morrison
Terra Nova E-34
 

gulfcoaster

Member III
Outside temp. dictates glow plug time for us

Down here in Texas I'll hold the glow plugs for 40-50 secs in the summer. In the winter I may hold them for 60-90 secs. It'll crank/start in 3-5 secs. max. This is typical over 13 yrs of ownership.
 

Second Star

Member III
The M-18 operator manual states that the glow plugs should be operated for 30-60 sec depending upon the temperature. My experience with the M-18 in my 28+ tends towards the 30 sec side... If I go any less for a "cold" start there is no way the engine picks up... summer or winter. So far there hasn't been a need to run them longer that the 30 sec. When the engine is still warm, even hours after shutting down, there's no need to use the glow plugs at all.
 

Cory B

Sustaining Member
Trial and error for us has me using 10-15 seconds during the summer (70 deg plus), and 45-50 seconds during the winter (40 deg or less) for a cold start. I think those numbers are in line with what the manual recommended.

I've done some of the simple wiring mods, like disconnecting the ammeter at the panel, and separating the starter and glowplug circuits.

I know the "more modern" engines require less glow plug, but I figure all that extra cast iron on the old blocks like our 5424 just works as an extra heat sink. But on the plus side it takes corrosion forever to work its way through them.

Bob-
Could you do a followup post about how much of a difference you think the relay on the glowplugs makes for you when you finish? I'm curious.
 

newgringo

Member III
Also did relay trick for glo plugs

Ever since 2005 owning our E32-3 with a M25 it has taken 30 to 40 seconds of glo plug for sometimes balky cold starts. No more. I also installed a relay (used a Ford starter motor relay) and now cold starts take a maximum of 15 seconds of glo plug time. The engine starts smartly in 1-2 revolutions every time. Warm starts usually do not require any glo plug heating. The only downside to the relay installation is that the panel ammeter no longer shows glo plug current when energized. Of course long ago I seperated the glo plug and starter buttons. Both mods are well worth doing.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Glow plug relay

This winter, the relay will be installed and the entire engine wiring system replaced (explosion in the spaghetti factory). I would have caught my glow plugs on all the time with a voltmeter. The glow plugs were really dragging down the voltage. The ammeter will be replaced with a voltmeter. The glow plug switch was stuck in the on position. The low voltage caused a failure in the fuel pump on a day with no wind. Relays are cheap, easy to install, and they take the load off the ignition circuit. The plugs will work better because higher voltage will be delivered to them and the wiring harness will run cooler. I'm amazed that the factory did not wire the engine this way.

Bob Morrison
E-34 Terra Nova
 

Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
The poll should also note whether or not one has installed a simple glow plug solenoid:

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster,_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid

For those who haven't yet performed the basic safety upgrades, you may be interested in our C34 Critical Upgrades, which apply to almost all your Ericsons:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html

And, if you still have ammeters in your cockpit panel, please please please get rid of them:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6650.0.html

See Reply #11 by Maine Sail, someone who you should be familiar with from his contributions on this forum.

Don't say we didn't warn ya! :)
 
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GrandpaSteve

Sustaining Member
Third Owner - First time reading this stuff

Hi Stu,

I am the third owner of a 1987 Ericson 32, that has a Universal M25XP. I bought my boat in April 2013, and never heard about or read about the alternator bracket upgrade until June. I am upgrading the bracket this winter.

I will check on the ammeter and other engine panel changes next time I go to the boat, but I am sure they will not have been done and I will have to do them, this is the first I am reading about them.

If my surveyor knew about and listed these issues I would have taken care of them before ever launching the boat, but these were not on his list.

So, keep raising these issues. I don't know if a person who chooses not to participate in on-line forums would ever find out about these issues until it was too late though.
 

Maine Sail

Member III
I do warn about excessive glow time but there are many factors that affect it and one needs to determine what category they fall into..


If using a large house bank or AGM batteries for starting the plugs should hit max safe temp in 7-15 seconds..

if using a single starting battery then the plug will not heat as rapidly due to voltage sag 10-20 seconds

if using a LiFePO4 battery as we do then 3-5 seconds is max. I burned out all four using 10 seconds like I used to do with a flooded lead acid bank. The Li bank just laughs at the glow plugs and remains above 13.1V long pushes at this voltage will kill them faster than cat kills barn mice... Our Westerbeke is 3 seconds at 25F with the Li bank... It was ten seconds with the old LA bank..

I have have replaced more glow plugs on boats with TPPL AGM than just about anything other than the 300Ah+ house bank used for starting..

if your system is poorly wired, has bad connections and voltage drop, on top of battery sag, then you may need 30 seconds.. If you truly need more than 30 seconds something is likely wrong in the circuit. Glow plugs heat very rapidly...

in a properly wired system, with healthy batteries, then 7-15 seconds should be more than enough..

I come across a fair number of burned out plugs. Usually one fries then the owner holds longer and takes out another, then another etc.. Fortunately they are dirt cheap, easy to test, about $6.00 each, and take about ten minutes to replace....



Lately my M25 requires 10-15 seconds of cranking at 60F. I probably have a glow plug or wiring issue.

How long do you energize your glow plugs?

Maine Sail warns against long glow plug excitation. He says, if I recall, that his engine starts after three seconds of glow plugs.

He suggests that glow plugs can be cooked by energizing them unnecessarily long.

Yet the M25 manual says 30 seconds. And when an engine is slow to start, most of us use more.

And--how long does your diesel typically crank before starting?
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
I am the third owner of a 1987 Ericson 32, that has a Universal M25XP. I bought my boat in April 2013, and never heard about or read about the alternator bracket upgrade until June. I am upgrading the bracket this winter.

Grandpa - Doesn't this just apply to the M-25, not the M-25XP?
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Don't say we didn't warn ya! :)

There are some people on this site who are well meaning, but firmly believe that the only way to do something is their way, and they have documentation ad naseum to back it up. Let me tell you, it may not be the only way that works, and it may not be the best way.

Case in point:
And, if you still have ammeters in your cockpit panel, please please please get rid of them:
There is nothing wrong with having an ammeter on the engine panel. I'll admit that it doesn't do much other than tell you that the glow plugs are working, but it doesn't hurt anything. You shouldn't run your alternator current through it, that's true, but the ammeter doesn't hurt anything. 12 or 13 years ago I wrote a blurb on rewiring the Universal engines which keeps the ammeter. I expect Sean to put back up on the site soon. Some people asked for a voltmeter version which I gave them. Neither is better than the other, just different.

To many people other people's must haves - glow plug solenoids, battery combiners, echo chargers, etc - are just that much more hair in the scuppers.

OK, rant over. :soapbox:
 
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Maine Sail

Member III
There are some people on this site who are well meaning, but firmly believe that the only way to do something is their way, and they have documentation ad naseum to back it up. Let me tell you, it may not be the only way that works, and it may not be the best way.

Case in point: There is nothing wrong with having an ammeter on the engine panel. I'll admit that it doesn't do much other than tell you that the glow plugs are working, but it doesn't hurt anything. You shouldn't run your alternator currrent through it, that's true, but the alternator doesn't hurt anything. 12 or 13 years ago I wrote a blurb on rewiring the Universal engines which keeps the ammeter. I expect Sean to put back up on the site soon. Some people asked for a voltmeter version which I gave them. Neither is better than the other, just different.

To many people other people's must haves - glow plug solenoids, battery combiners, echo chargers, etc - are just that much more hair in the scuppers.

OK, rant over. :soapbox:

There are 80 ways to skin a cat. I suspect Stu's comments are in regards to an M-25 with the original factory wiring. Of course you can keep an ammeter in the cockpit, if it is safely wired. The factory installations on early engines were simply not safe... I don't suspect you consider the original factory wiring safe and that is what Stu was referring to.

Whether you remove the ammeter and replace with a volt gauge or keep it and not pass alt current through it is not the real concern what is the concern is safety. If you have an ammeter and have not touched the original wiring, then it really should be addressed.....
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Turns out two of my three glow plugs don't work. Replacements arrived yesterday. I'm looking forward to modifying the wiring and cleaning up the old mess this week. [Update: the glow plugs were replaced but the originals later tested fine]

Oddly, though, I don't enjoy all that much being warned about my personal safety.

Why, it can get to sounding downright lecture-y. It can seem that somebody is smarter than somebody, when somebody is addressing a large audience of somebodies who are individuals of quite varied experience, needs, priorities and tastes.

In general, like Maine Sail's clarification of specifics, the information speaks best for itself. An idiot might ignore it, or not bother to understand it.

An idiot, however, is unlikely to be reading forums about yacht maintenance, and is more likely an owner with some curiosity and interest who is weighing various solutions and encountering conflicting recommendations and levels of emphasis.

This particular forum, it seems to me, assumes a commonality of interest. Namely, the Ericson family of yachts. The word Newbie seldom appears. Nobody is harshly corrected and set straight. It is not an environment for emotional debate, and threads characteristically back off rather than plunge on into hand-to-hand combat. In general, the level of experience is relatively high, the members literate, the tone respectful.

Warnings? Couldn't that go both ways?
 

Stu Jackson

C34IA Secretary
Chris, sorry if it came across that way to you, it was certainly not meant that way.

In both my experience, and Maine Sail's (if you read reply #11 in the my previously linked post), he also mentioned his concerns about "the word not getting out."

For those of you who don't read the links, for whatever reason, he wrote:
*************************************************
Text removed at Maine Sail's request.
*************************************************

That's why I continue to link to these important safety issues, because while some owners association websites, like this one, are good about spreading the information, not all skippers "get the word." That is why I started our C34 "Critical Upgrades" topic, because these issues are common to so many production boats, and are, uhm, critical. You will note that many of Maine Sail's posts, and his website, are linked in that Critical Upgrades topic.

In many cases, I've sent other skippers to this forum because the material here is very very good.

Just tryin' to help.

Your boat, your choice.
 
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