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Rudder Issues: Bushings, Zerk Replacement, Grease

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Check the nuts on the cockpit deck access plate to the bronze rudder post fitting w/zerk.

The four Phillps-head bolts of the deck access plate are actually what holds the upper rudder post fitting in place (i.e., much more than just an "access plate").

I'm installing a new water heater and just this afternoon noticed mine are loose again (!). I've tightened them four times in the past year.

Not to beat this to death, since it may not even be your issue, but the problem is that the Phillips-head bolts (machine screws?) cannot be held against a strong tightening torque on the nuts under the deck. Access below is difficult. The nuts and lock washers there are bathed in grease, which defeats Nylon insert nuts. Locktite, no dice either. The upper rudder post fitting bears all the strain of the rudder post while constantly rotating, plus the vibration of the diesel, plus getting so hot in the sun you can't step on it barefoot. Somehow the nuts manage to come loose.

I may go to regular hex head bolts, no fun to stand on, just to be able to tighten the nuts.

OK, over and out, I promise. But a ridiculous recurring small problem on my model, or boat.

Oh yeah, and its easy to install a new lower Zerk. I think getting grease down there is important.
 
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Al Emondi

Member II
New Delrin Bushing

I just stumbled across this thread and thought that I would chime in on my situation and what I did. A few years back (2005) I had my 32-3 out on the hard for a few months to do some major renovation work. One issue I looked into was that every time I would tack, I would feel a slight thump in the rudder. Once I had the boat in the yard, I could actually pull on the rudder side to side, and reproduce the thump. In my case it was the lower bronze rudder bushing. I removed the rudder and the bushing from inside the rudder tube and had a new one made from delrin at a local machine shop. Put everything back together and it has been great ever since. Attached are some pictures to help in the explanation. To get the old brass bushing out, I used a sawzall to carefully cut through the length of the brass bushing. Once this released the pressure between the bushing and the rudder tube, with a long rod I was able to hammer out the brass bushing without too much effort. I took the rudder and the bushing to the machinist and had him make a replacement busing from delrin stock. I pushed the new bushing into the rudder tube by about a 1/2" (note the picture does not show the bushing completely inserted) and placed a small bead of epoxy all around the base of the tube to be sure the bushing doesn't work its way out (be sure to clean away any grease and sand the area well before applying epoxy so it will stick to the fiberglass). I unscrewed the old zerks from the rudder tube since they were all rusted up, and replaced them with new stainless zerks. Before launching the boat, I pumped in a few tubes of grease until it started to ooze out from between the hull and rudder underneath the boat.

On a side note, I noticed I had some pitting in my rudder tube near where the stainless rudder shaft enters into the rudder. I am assuming this is because of the dissimilar metals between the brass and stainless. Call me crazy, but I opted to have a new rudder made from the same guy who made the original rudder in California and thickened the rudder tube in the new specs. I know this was overkill, but I did not want to chance my rudder snapping off in heavy weather ... just when you need it most. I since dropped the rudder in a recent haul out, and all looks great 10 years later. Hope this helps...

IMG_2015.jpgIMG_2018.jpgIMG_2054.jpgIMG_2060.jpg
 
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mkollerjr

Member III
Blogs Author
Thanks for the photos. They are very helpful! They say a photo is worth a thousand words, and that couldn't be more true when trying to describe something. I am still not totally clear on what the mating surfaces are in the whole assembly - vertical and horizontal. It seems that the horizontal forces are taken care of with a bronze bushing on the top and bottom, both with grease zerks. Correct?

For the vertical forces, is it just the mating surfaces between the lower bushing and the rudder post? Is there some kind of wear ring?

i just took my deck plate off, and nothing under there is keeping the rudder from rising. Below by the quadrant there appears to be nothing from keeping the rudder from rising. It seems it must be the interface on the under side of the hull. Do you have more pictures?

mark
 

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I see no means of keeping my rudder up except buoyancy. However, I am also unable to push it down (even with the emergency steering post in place).

On the exposed rudder post beneath the hull there is a plastic washer, as if to reduce friction.

Apparently buoyancy keeps my rudder up, and the radial (through-bolted) keeps it from falling down.

I'm surprised we don;t have a definitive answer on this yet.

rudder highlighted.jpg

And Al, that's very nice work indeed.
 
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Al Emondi

Member II
Thanks Christian, when I get some time, I'll try and throw a few more things on the site with some of the other work I have been up to. As far as the bolts coming loose on the upper bushing, have you tried installing two nuts on each bolt and locking them in place that way? Also, if you thoroughly clean the bolts and surrounding area up with some acetone to get rid of all the grease, the nylon lock nuts should work ok. If they keep loosing up on you after trying that, you might want to check that your cockpit floor is not a little punky in that area - the core may be a bit wet - again speaking from experience on that one too unfortunately.

As Mark suggests, the more powerful horizontal forces on the rudder are handled by the upper and lower bushings that the rudder post travels through. The more minor vertical forces are managed by the spacer rings that are sandwiched between the steering quadrant and the brass stuffing flange. I am embarrassed to include this picture ... it was of my old quadrant and stuffing flange before I cleaned everything up, but it gets the point across. As you can see, at least for my boat anyway, I have two rings (one white and one black) between the quadrant and the stuffing flange. Underneath the boat, I do not have a spacer, the rudder just rubs up against the hull of the boat at the base of the rudder tube. The new delrin busing is pushed up into the rudder tube by about 3/8" to 1/2" to allow for a bead of epoxy to keep the bushing from dropping in the rudder tube. With the rudder being up against the hull underneath, and the spacer rings, the rudder is not able to move vertically ... nothing noticeable anyway. So if you have any vertical movement then I would suspect that you don't have enough rings between the quadrant and the stuffing box. In my case, I was installing a new rudder, so I had the luxury to place the quadrant exactly where I needed it. The picture shown here is of the old quadrant, but the detail is still the same. I placed a hydraulic jack under the rudder to keep it in place and lightly pressed up against the bottom of the hull, placed a few spacer rings on the rudder post on the inside on top of the stuffing flange, then mounted the quadrant directly on top of the spacers. This resulted in no vertical movement.

Also notice, like you have posted, the zerk on the rudder post was really badly corroded and partially buried under the fiberglass shown in the picture. So, I had to uncover it (exposed zerk in picture) and remove it (zerk removed shown in picture). I replaced it with a new stainless zerk and put a small bead of epoxy around it to keep it secure in the rudder post. It can be grinded away again if it needs replaced. Keep in mind, I believe the zerk on the rudder tube is below the waterline so, that may be a job best for when you are out of the water.

IMG_1999.jpgIMG_2046.jpgIMG_2047.jpgIMG_2049.jpg
 

mkollerjr

Member III
Blogs Author
Thanks. It's all starting to become more clear to me. It seems odd that the original design had the rudder post pivoting directly on the underside of the hull, without a washer or something. Oh well, it seems to be working for all the other boats out there. I'm still not sure why I would have vertical play, other than some wear at the rudder/hull interface, or the quadrant hole was not drilled in exactly correct location at the factory.

Anyways, it sounds like the 1/4" vertical play is not something to be overly concerned about, but may want to look at it in the next haul out. The surveyor said play in the rudder was perfectly normal, especially for a production boat. It really only makes a slight clunking noise when a following wave passes under the boat.

Before I buy a grease gun, what do you think the odds are that my rusty zerk is functional?

Mark
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Grease type

I used automotive chassis grease on my rudder re-installation 6 years ago and it has performed well. The black chassis grease is bad stuff on old gelcoat though because it stains it. Perhaps the white grease I use in my feathering propeller, or the Harbor Freight reference would be better when the new rudder goes in later this month.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Proper Grease ?

I used automotive chassis grease on my rudder re-installation 6 years ago and it has performed well. The black chassis grease is bad stuff on old gelcoat though because it stains it. Perhaps the white grease I use in my feathering propeller, or the Harbor Freight reference would be better when the new rudder goes in later this month.

If you look at this page link at the PYI site, you will notice some special grease that they recommend for their feathering props.
http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=max-prop&action=accessories&sn=1

They even sold me a tube of it for my Martec feathering prop.
Reason was that many of the standard waterproof greases compounds are too stiff and viscous in cold water. In my case the prop blades would occasionally need a couple of try's to get them to reverse direction. (This can cause a rapid heart rate when maneuvering in a tight moorage!)

Anyhow, the suggested grease is said to be stocked in local stores but I never found any in the PDX area and finally bought some direct from PYI. This ability to keep its initial ability to flow might also be a good thing for the rudder shaft situation. Maybe.

Regards,
Loren
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Lubriplate

Lubriplate is what I use in the prop, which is a PYI 3-Blade Classic. I can never recall the brand name since I use it once a year at most. It is a white calcium grease and except for the spelling on the link, that is the stuff I use. I inherited the first tube from the PO of the boat. I'll check and get a picture when I visit the boat this afternoon.

It does flow well at low temps, great for cold waters. It also separates in the container, over time, into the heavier solids and a light amber oil, but I have been able to mix it back up in a dish for brush-on applications. I am using this grease on my winches as they go back together after a complete cleaning. I also used it to re-grease my steering chain.

Thanks for the reference, Loren!
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Lubriplate 130-AA and the clunking rudders

Here are some pics of the 130-AA grease.

Lubriplate_130AA_02.jpgLubriplate_130AA_01.jpg

The clunking rudders may be due to the retaining thru-bolt being drilled too high in the rudder's post. It could be a factory variation or maybe not, because Foss Foam doesn't usually drill the holes in the post, according to the person I've talked to when I was ordering my new one last month. In fact Foss doesn't guarantee the rudder post will be exactly the correct length, so I may have to trim it shorter. They did guarantee it would be long enough and said they didn't need a measurement. Apparently the 38s rudder design didn't change through the production run and probably Eriscon made minor adjustments on each boat as needed. I just hope the diameter is machined correctly so I am not faced with bearing mods. I didn't think to ask about that.

I have not had this problem with my existing rudder. I have almost zero (1/8" ?) up-down movement with no spacer above or below the quadrant, and no bearing/washer between the top of the rudder and the fairing at the hull. The quadrant rests on the top of the glassed-in tube and packing gland. The space between the top of the rudder and the hull fairing is quite narrow, similar to the pictures in the earlier post.

I will be test installing the rudder when I re-seat the upper bearing soon and will take some pictures. I think my situation has worked because the space between the top of the rudder and the hull is narrow. But the addition of a teflon or delrin washer in there might be a good idea for the new rudder.

Craig
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Maybe it's just my sense of humor...

Craig,
Thanks for a chuckle...
What a Great name for a rock band: Lubriplate and the Clunking Rudders !
:rolleyes:

Can you put together a group for the 2015 Rendezvous?

LB
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
unintended consequences

Someone with better taste than me should mess with the music. I'm happy to just supply the name!

The Clunking Rudders would never steer you wrong.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Installing a rudder grease fitting

Nothing really new here, just my version of installing a lower zerk fitting in the rudder post of my E323. I did the project with the boat out of the water--just felt better for me, to be drilling holes near the waterline while on dry land. The zerk has 1/4-28 threads and I drilled a practice hole in plywood. A 7/32" bit allowed the threads a bit of "bite" while still allowing the zerk to thread in. So off I went to drill the rudder post. I drilled first with the small bit, then with a 1/2" bit to cut a larger hole for the zerk body. Fiberglass, of course, drills easily, so I stopped when I felt a noticeable change in hardness while drilling. I was maybe 3/8"-1/2" deep at the time with the 7/32 bit. Not being in the water, I couldn't test run the boat and look for water squirting in, so I had to rely on pictures. I propped the cellphone up on some foam pads and filmed video while I went up on deck to turn the rudder. Nothing. Just a grayish hole with maybe a bit of shiny material near the center, but no visible movement.

20190514_201117 (2).jpg

Not wanting to go back to drilling further (maybe against the rudder post), I hung it up for the night and decided to review this forum thread in the morning just so I really knew what I was drilling into. This thread helped a lot. The bronze bushing at the bottom was obviously quite a bit lower than I was drilling, and the packing gland was a bit higher. I assumed that maybe the problem was the pointed drill bit hitting the outside of a curved tube. The center of the bit could be "just" bottoming out while still leaving plenty of material on the sides. I grabbed a spare bit from the garage and and ground it out to a concave, rather than a pointed bit.

20190516_193711.jpg

Back at the boat the next day, I first tried the ground-down bit in a hand drill but it was difficult to turn. I resorted to the DeWalt. The bit ripped through in a couple of turns with a noticeable "give" when it cleared all the fiberglass. Back to the video camera routine. This time, the video showed the rudder shaft clearly rotating behind the hole I had just cut. The bit did leave a mild circular scoring on the shaft (or, at least a scraping away of all the grunge). If I had it to do over again, I'd probably have stuck with the hand drill a little longer.

20190516_183103 (2).jpg

I thoroughly cleaned out the hole with q-tips and alcohol (I saw no metal shavings). On trying to thread the zerk into the hole, I found the diameter was too small (the glass being harder than the plywood I had test-drilled). I was about to re-drill with a 15/64 bit, but realized I had a 1/4-28 tap laying on the counter for another project (tapping holes for a cleat in my mast). There wasn't enough working space in the rudder tube area to use a standard tap t-handle, so I put the tap in my hand drill. It was quite easy to spin and reverse the tap with the drill while keeping moderate pressure on the tap.

I got about four good threads cut into the hole (which is about all the zerk has anyway) and called it good. I re-cleaned with alcohol, then acetone, threaded the zerk firmly into the hole, and prepared to epoxy it in place.

20190516_184615 (2).jpg

To give the epoxy more to "grab on to" on the tube, I drilled smaller holes (< 1/8" probably) around the perimeter of the 1/2 hole and injected epoxy into each of these small holes before slathering all a round the outside of the 1/2" hole and the zerk body.

Went back today to pump some grease in. Easy as could be. I could even hear the grease oozing under pressure inside the tube......for probably the first time in 30 some years.

Wouldn't have even known about the importance of this, let alone how to do, it without all the great advice on this forum.
 
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