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Instrument and chartplotter advice needed

lnill

Member III
Hi,
This is my first post. We acquired an E38-200 this spring. It has original Datamarine Link 5000 depth, wind, speed setup, Garmin 182C, and Furano 1621. The Furano and Garmin work fine. The Datalink is close to dead I think. The depth appears to work when under sail but with the engine running, it flakes out. The wind and speed do not seem to work at all. Previous owner said he took it apart a couple of years back and "dried it out" and it worked again. I have not tried yet but will soon.

I am considering just replacing the GPS/plotter and the basic instruments. But I am finding the process bewildering. I am intrigued by the new Raymarine E7d and would ideally put that at the helm, an ipad at the nav, and use it as both chartplotter, speed, and depth. Then buy a separate wind speed (ST60?) and call it a day. I really only need the radar in fog and the Furano unit works fine.

Alternatively I could buy new instrument set and live with the GPS for a while. However, I think then I have to buy all three and am into $1600+++ to get just the Datamarine replaced and then I will still have to buy a plotter soon. The e7 is pretty reasonable price wise and it looks to me like I could do that plus just wind speed for about $3000.

Last option would be to try to get the Datamarine repaired and just delay the entire process a few more years.

We will mostly day sail and coastal cruise between Long Island and Maine so don't think I need an elaborate setup but I do need to be safe.

Anyone who has done any of the above? Any other suggestions? All advice welcome.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
> The depth appears to work when under sail but with the engine running, it flakes out.

This could well be an issue with the alternator. If it puts too much noise into the power line it can blank out the depth receiver's ability to hear the echo. Before throwing the towel in on the speed and wind units I'd disassemble them and clean every electrical contact you can find. Speed is particularly easy to troubleshoot.

I'm interested in hearing what people say more broadly about your request. Seems to me there should be a simple and relatively inexpensive way of bridging an NMEA network with a Bluetooth network to get more of the incredible power of an iPad into the system. So far I haven't seen one.

I would not want to be Raymarine pushing $1600 limited-use devices when general-purpose used iPads go for about a tenth of that.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
I agree that it's confusing and outrageously expensive for what is actually in these units. I would say that a working depth meter is indispensable. It may be worth troubleshooting your old stuff, if you like tinkering. Or your time might be worth more than the cost of a new one. In addition to electrical noise... I assume your depth transducer is well clear of prop wash?

Last year, I just got by with a (new) depth gauge and an iPhone. Now I'm all loaded up with new (to me) toys. There are lots of possible ways to build a system, but I tried to build on what I had or could get cheap(ish).

I don't know how valid it is, but I have the general feeling that building a system one piece at a time could be dangerous, unless you go with the newest and most (needlessly) expensive network system. There are so many different competing buses out there, and I get the feeling that manufacturers are likely to drop the cheaper ones at any time.

If you stay with instruments that can output NMEA 0183 (or for raymarine, seatalk plus the NMEA converter box) you can display the data right on your Furuno 1621 screen. Supposedly. I haven't quite got it wired up yet, but I'm working on it. Also, some of the NMEA 0183 multiplexers will broadcast the data on WiFi and link right to your iPad and replace the raymarine converter box as well. For a tiny fraction of the cost of a new RM head unit. For now, I'm going with the even cheaper option of using my old laptop as the primary chart plotter at the nav station ($0) and linking to iPad over WiFi with one or the other of several $5 apps. However, this will be a relatively big drain on the batteries.

Yep, confusing and/or expensive.
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
>
I'm interested in hearing what people say more broadly about your request. Seems to me there should be a simple and relatively inexpensive way of bridging an NMEA network with a Bluetooth network to get more of the incredible power of an iPad into the system. So far I haven't seen one.

Have you looked at the iMux unit? Actually this page discusses it more intelligibly that I can. Last I heard though, they were so far behind on building the units that they weren't taking new orders.
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
When I upgraded my E38 I was replacing an old Raymarine monochromatic chartplotter that was very S-L-O-W, an old Furuno CRT radar (that worked great) and some dodgy Autohelm instruments. I ended up with a Furuno 1723 Chartplotter/radar and Raymarine ST60+ instruments. Looking back I could have simply upgraded the chartplotter and kept the CRT..... The ST60+'s have been fairly reliable. I have had to send the masthead unit back to Raymarine, and I bought a spare just in case, but since then its been reliable. In your case I would leave the chartplotter and radar alone, if they work for you. Furuno is one of if not the best radar manufacturer and Garmin, while not my favorite, is quite popular. I would go for the Raymarine ST60+ instruments but buy the combo speed/depth/temp tridata unit to go with the wind display. This saves a space, unless you have an existing hole in a bulkhead to fill. I have the tridata, wind and autopilot in a triple navpod at the helm, works well. The ST60+ setup should set you back about $1200. Another option if you upgrade the chartplotter is consider a Furuno. You MAY be able to use your existing radome with the a new chartplotter/radar unit thus saving the cost of the radome.
RT
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Nice! I hadn't seen that one. Their advantage appears to be built-in GPS, so there is one less box to buy. They seem to suffer by not having the usual keywords on their website. And that unit can only apparently "listen" from two other devices and "talk" to three. (I'm juggling 5.) Not clear whether other software can use it or only their own app? Other manufacturers include Digital Yacht and ShipModul.

One nice feature of the Brookhouse unit is that it can filter and edit NMEA strings. So for example, if your software doesn't support DSC info (such as automated emergency signals) from the radio, and I don't think any of the iPad software does right now, it can convert the DSC string so that the calling vessel's location appears as a waypoint on your chart plotter.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
Thanks for those links. My needs for something like this would be more modest; I don't have a reason to link 10 devices. I just want to link an iPad and/or a laptop to an autopilot and possibly DSC, and for power conservation via Bluetooth instead of WiFi. As a result my price point on something like that would be closer to $99 than $300 and even at $49 I think there would be a lot of profit margin in the device.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
That's true. I can't see that there is really anything in these $600 instruments that you couldn't build from an arduino board and a few bucks worth of parts from radio shack. In fact, if you do an internet search, you can find a few people have started posting open source code for doing exactly that.

If only I didn't have 400 other projects to do this year.
 

windjunkee

Member III
The instrument issue is an interesting and complex one. To get the data feed, you'll still need each one of the sensors (wind, speed, depth, compass). The processors themselves are not terribly expensive. If all you're doing is running the feed into a bluetooth or wi-fi hub to send off to your ipad, the hub can be linked directly to the processor "Brain".

However, it depends on how you intend to use the information. We race, so wind data, course data, VMG, etc. is paramount. We're replacing a very old B&G system on Airwaves, the Beneteau 50 I'm sailing on. The displays are the most expensive aspect. We're shopping Nexus and B&G. Both integrate with GPS, and a chartplotter display at the helm will also display AIS and Radar data. Also, the processor has a port to attach directly into a computer, both on B&G and with Nexus. We need wind, boatspeed, heading and course data for everyone to see, so we're going with a combination of masthead displays, bulkhead displays and helm position displays.

When sailing, you have to consider that crew will want to see things like wind, course and boatspeed so you're going to have to pony up for some fixed displays anyway.

As an example, for Airwaves, we've priced a Nexus NX-2 system with the processor and blue tooth hub, three 20/20 displays for the mast, two analog wind displays, two main displays (one for bulkhead, one for helm) a "steer pilot" display for the helm and a chartplotter/gps for the nav station with a repeater at the helm. The total cost for this system, including replacement of all the sensors, is about $12,000. B&G came in around $15,000 for a similar system and fewer displays.

Shocking, but its boat reality. On Voice of Reason, we put in a B&G H-1000 system in 2006, 3 displays, all new sensors and the brains for about $4000.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA
 
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Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Hi,
This is my first post. We acquired an E38-200 this spring. It has original Datamarine Link 5000 depth, wind, speed setup, Garmin 182C, and Furano 1621. The Furano and Garmin work fine. The Datalink is close to dead I think. The depth appears to work when under sail but with the engine running, it flakes out. The wind and speed do not seem to work at all. Previous owner said he took it apart a couple of years back and "dried it out" and it worked again. I have not tried yet but will soon.

I am considering just replacing the GPS/plotter and the basic instruments. But I am finding the process bewildering. I am intrigued by the new Raymarine E7d and would ideally put that at the helm, an ipad at the nav, and use it as both chartplotter, speed, and depth. Then buy a separate wind speed (ST60?) and call it a day. I really only need the radar in fog and the Furano unit works fine.

Alternatively I could buy new instrument set and live with the GPS for a while. However, I think then I have to buy all three and am into $1600+++ to get just the Datamarine replaced and then I will still have to buy a plotter soon. The e7 is pretty reasonable price wise and it looks to me like I could do that plus just wind speed for about $3000.

Last option would be to try to get the Datamarine repaired and just delay the entire process a few more years.

We will mostly day sail and coastal cruise between Long Island and Maine so don't think I need an elaborate setup but I do need to be safe.

Anyone who has done any of the above? Any other suggestions? All advice welcome.

Went through a similar situation on our 32-200. Here's what we did.

We purchased an ST60 wind system and a Garmin 541s Chartplotter with the depth transducer.

The ST60 display fits inside the old data marine white casing. We put the 541 on the starboard side where the other DM display used to be.

I would love to begin using mny ipad more onboard as well for soemthing other than weather radar and Pandora..LOL
 
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Mindscape

Member III
iPad in the Sun

For the guys using iPads - what do you do about the iPad display in the sun? I don't normally sail with a bimini up and between my bad eyes and the sun I can't see anything on my iPad unless it's below, out of the sun. I guess I'd be concerned with water on the iPad as well. I'd like to use the iPad more, but it does seem to have some limitations.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
My current plan is to install two small grooved rails on the port side of the forward cockpit bulkhead next to the cabin entryway - like the grooved rails into which the companionway boards slide, but only 8" high, made of 3/4" StarBoard, and with a stop at the bottom of the groove.

The iPad will slip into these rails in landscape (wide) mode - not portrait (tall) mode because the screen is polarized in such a way that it is not visible through polarized sunglasses in portrait mode. I'm planning to notch the rail to run a power cable through to the iPad jack. The stop will prevent the iPad from falling through the rails.

It will be encased in a simple Ziplock bag for waterproofness before sliding into the rails.

There is no great sun solution but a hood might be able to be constructed out of Mylar that fits around the rails and the top of the iPad that would cast a shadow and be relatively inexpensive.

PS: I paid what seemed to be a ridiculous sum for a 4 x 8 sheet of 3/4" Starboard several years ago, but out of that I've gotten three companionway panels (actuall, four as I messed one up), a set of internal and external handrails, two replacement cockpit coaming panels spanning the length of the cockpit port and starboard, and a decent pile of scrap for ongoing doodads like this.
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
My current plan is to install two small grooved rails on the port side of the forward cockpit bulkhead next to the cabin entryway - like the grooved rails into which the companionway boards slide, but only 8" high, made of 3/4" StarBoard, and with a stop at the bottom of the groove.

The iPad will slip into these rails in landscape (wide) mode - not portrait (tall) mode because the screen is polarized in such a way that it is not visible through polarized sunglasses in portrait mode. I'm planning to notch the rail to run a power cable through to the iPad jack. The stop will prevent the iPad from falling through the rails.

It will be encased in a simple Ziplock bag for waterproofness before sliding into the rails.

There is no great sun solution but a hood might be able to be constructed out of Mylar that fits around the rails and the top of the iPad that would cast a shadow and be relatively inexpensive.

PS: I paid what seemed to be a ridiculous sum for a 4 x 8 sheet of 3/4" Starboard several years ago, but out of that I've gotten three companionway panels (actuall, four as I messed one up), a set of internal and external handrails, two replacement cockpit coaming panels spanning the length of the cockpit port and starboard, and a decent pile of scrap for ongoing doodads like this.

If it's not too late, contact these guys
http://www.rammount.com/NewProducts/AppleiPadMounts/tabid/2614/Default.aspx#/

I use their GPS mounts on my motorcycles. I plan on mounting my iPad to the pedistal rail using one of there handlebar mounts.

Also, there was an interesting article in Sail magazine a few months back that compared all the waterproof cases for iPads made for sailing.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
Nice. I use an iPad for creating presentations and have a tripod that's been adapted for iPad use that has a somewhat similar edge-grasping frame. Simple and effective for sailboat use, though I don't know that they'd do so well with the pounding of a powerboat.

The weak point in these designs is that the mounts' metal hardware and fasteners are not stainless and will not withstand the marine environment.

I think either Sail's review or another review I read online concluded that the ziploc bags were as effective as the expensive cases, and 1% of the cost.
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Nice. I use an iPad for creating presentations and have a tripod that's been adapted for iPad use that has a somewhat similar edge-grasping frame. Simple and effective for sailboat use, though I don't know that they'd do so well with the pounding of a powerboat.The weak point in these designs is that the mounts' metal hardware and fasteners are not stainless and will not withstand the marine environment.I think either Sail's review or another review I read online concluded that the ziploc bags were as effective as the expensive cases, and 1% of the cost.
I use ziplocks all the time. I've found myself playing Pandora on the boat and I can operate the iPad through the plastic! Elegant!
 

lnill

Member III
thanks for inputs!

Well, I have been watching this thread for the past week plus doing some more investigation. Appreciate getting a variety of points of view.

We are going to step the mast to do some other work on the spreaders this winter so I would like to make any decision about what I put up there. Also, I think the old instruments, while they might be able to be revived (haven't gotten back to the boat yet to try that) are 25 years old and not likely to last much longer in any case.

We are only interested in cruising on our boat. Anyone just gone without a wind direction transducer and use tridata and a windex? Seems like a lot of money for those transducers!
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Oh, yes I've been doing without up until now. I also have a hand-held weather gadget that will give me apparent wind speed if I want to check my guesstimate. Just check how many masts in the marina don't have an anemometer. But other option the wind instrument gives you is being able to set the autopilot to steer by the wind.

Really, I have no idea why they're so expensive.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The size of the market

Oh, yes I've been doing without up until now. I also have a hand-held weather gadget that will give me apparent wind speed if I want to check my guesstimate. Just check how many masts in the marina don't have an anemometer. But other option the wind instrument gives you is being able to set the autopilot to steer by the wind.

Really, I have no idea why they're so expensive.


Well, besides my cynical assumption that a sailing niche market is preceived to be 'wealthy' and willing to pay proportionately a lot more for its technology...
There's simply the crushing force of Economy of Scale. :0
I looked up the sales for the iPad for a recent period and found this quote from PCWorld:
Apple recently announced the most iPad sales yet over a three-month period, putting 17 million tablets in customer’s hands between April and June.
The price at the Apple Store today for the iPad 2, is $399. Multiply that by 17 million, and you probably have enough $$ to buy and sell Raymarine many times.

Considering the level of computing power and astounding variety of applications the iPad runs, for its everyday price.... it's dirt cheap compared to what we pay to Raymarine to find out Wind Speed, Direction, Boat Speed, Trip length, Depth, and computed True Wind (Oooh, Wow....).
Basic price for the "standard three" saiing instruments is usually under $1600. Or thereabouts.

But then, we are one puny little niche market to sell into, in comparison.

Better not to dwell on this stuff, just go out and sail and forget your worries for a while.
:egrin:

LB
 
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