E39 Headsail
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sveinutne
Member III
I might be interested in a 160-170% headsail. The one I got is ready for replacement, and if we only sail with two people the spinnaker will not be used. I got an E41, so I am not sure if it will be fine, but maybe it will be like a 155-165% if the mast on the E41 is taller than the mast on E39, but they might have the same height, I am just guessing. Maybe it will not work? Are there any experts here that can tell if this sail will work on my E41?
The problem might be the long transport to Norway, it might be expensive to send?
The problem might be the long transport to Norway, it might be expensive to send?
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sveinutne
Member III
Hm, Maybe the mast on the E39 is taller that the mast on E41?</SPAN>
I have not found any number for the mast, but sail area for e41 is 715 sq ft, and 720 sq ft for e39. The e39 got also more ballast, so maybe I can’t use the sail for e39 on e41. Are there any experts here that can give some advice?</SPAN>
I have not found any number for the mast, but sail area for e41 is 715 sq ft, and 720 sq ft for e39. The e39 got also more ballast, so maybe I can’t use the sail for e39 on e41. Are there any experts here that can give some advice?</SPAN>
Headsails
Both boats have J dimensions of 16.5 (some places list the 41's J as 16.4, but this is close enough).
The 41 and 39 came in several rig configs, ranging from and "I" of 46-46.5 feet to 49 feet (Tall Rig) for the 41, and 50-52 feet for the 39. So, Sven is rigt that the 39 has a taller rig than the 41, as you would exect given the vintages of the boats.
The good news is that if this sail is in good condition, it can be recut to fit a 41 fairly easily. You will just have to shorten the luff a couple of feet.. With any luck you only have to shorten the luff 3.5-4.0 feet, and you might lose 5% of LP in the process, so it is worth it IF the 41 owner really wants a sail that big.
My question is why? This is a limited range sail (maybe upwind up to 5-8 kts) and reaching to 12-15 (depending on how deep the reaching angle is).
It is true that BK drew the sailplans on some of these boats to show the 170, but very few boats raced with them since under CCA and IOR (and later PHRF) this sail was bigger than the rated max LP of 150% (for CCA/IOR) or 155% (for PHRF), so they carried a penalty. Obviously there was no benefit for this penalty when sailing outside the range of the sail, so you would only have seen this maybe on Long Island Sound or maybe Newport Beach, CA-and even then it would be unusual since it can blow even in those places.
All that said, if the sail is in great shape and you want something big, it is worth considering. Just rememeber you will need to invest a few hundred bucks on the recut.
Cheers
Both boats have J dimensions of 16.5 (some places list the 41's J as 16.4, but this is close enough).
The 41 and 39 came in several rig configs, ranging from and "I" of 46-46.5 feet to 49 feet (Tall Rig) for the 41, and 50-52 feet for the 39. So, Sven is rigt that the 39 has a taller rig than the 41, as you would exect given the vintages of the boats.
The good news is that if this sail is in good condition, it can be recut to fit a 41 fairly easily. You will just have to shorten the luff a couple of feet.. With any luck you only have to shorten the luff 3.5-4.0 feet, and you might lose 5% of LP in the process, so it is worth it IF the 41 owner really wants a sail that big.
My question is why? This is a limited range sail (maybe upwind up to 5-8 kts) and reaching to 12-15 (depending on how deep the reaching angle is).
It is true that BK drew the sailplans on some of these boats to show the 170, but very few boats raced with them since under CCA and IOR (and later PHRF) this sail was bigger than the rated max LP of 150% (for CCA/IOR) or 155% (for PHRF), so they carried a penalty. Obviously there was no benefit for this penalty when sailing outside the range of the sail, so you would only have seen this maybe on Long Island Sound or maybe Newport Beach, CA-and even then it would be unusual since it can blow even in those places.
All that said, if the sail is in great shape and you want something big, it is worth considering. Just rememeber you will need to invest a few hundred bucks on the recut.
Cheers
sveinutne
Member III
Hi Seth</SPAN>
It looks like you know a lot about sails and the Ericson yachts. I think the mast on my E41 is more than 50 feet, so it might be a tall rig. It is lying in my garden, and I will mount it in May if I manage to paint it and put in all the new wires and instruments in time. When you measure the length of the mast, is that the length of the whole aluminum mast or only the part above deck? I will measure the length of the mast tomorrow, so I know exactly what it is.</SPAN>
About usage; in the Trondheim’s fjord where I live the wind can be between 5-10 kts. for days, and a 150% would be good, a 170% is not be best but better than the 100% I got, but the 150% that came with the boat is not usable. Offshore, the wind is mostly in the 10-30 kts range so there the 100% sail will be better. It will be interesting to measure the mast tomorrow, so I know what I got, but I guess it is 50-55 feet.</SPAN>
It looks like you know a lot about sails and the Ericson yachts. I think the mast on my E41 is more than 50 feet, so it might be a tall rig. It is lying in my garden, and I will mount it in May if I manage to paint it and put in all the new wires and instruments in time. When you measure the length of the mast, is that the length of the whole aluminum mast or only the part above deck? I will measure the length of the mast tomorrow, so I know exactly what it is.</SPAN>
About usage; in the Trondheim’s fjord where I live the wind can be between 5-10 kts. for days, and a 150% would be good, a 170% is not be best but better than the 100% I got, but the 150% that came with the boat is not usable. Offshore, the wind is mostly in the 10-30 kts range so there the 100% sail will be better. It will be interesting to measure the mast tomorrow, so I know what I got, but I guess it is 50-55 feet.</SPAN>
mast length
Sven,
The "I" measurment used to determine headsail size and appromimate luff length is measured from the top of the genoa halyard sheave to a point on deck where the chainplate for the upper shroud attaches to the deck-it is NOT the overall length of the mast.
Keep in mind that you are seeing the entire mast, including the portion which goes below deck all the way to the mast step-and that part of the mast is not part of the "I" dimension.
You can't really determine the "I" dimension without having the mast in the boat. If you can tell me the distance between the mainsail tack pin and the bottom of the main halyard sheave box (the "P" dimension), I should be able to confirm if you have the std rig or the short rig-and we can have a good idea. The "P" for the std rig is 39.2', and the "P" for the tall rig is 42.5'. The "I" for the std rig should be 46.5' and 49' for the tall rig. Try and get a "P" dimension and we can go from there.
Do you have any reason to think your rig is a custom size?
Once we know this information we can review the best sail combinations.
Cheers
Sven,
The "I" measurment used to determine headsail size and appromimate luff length is measured from the top of the genoa halyard sheave to a point on deck where the chainplate for the upper shroud attaches to the deck-it is NOT the overall length of the mast.
Keep in mind that you are seeing the entire mast, including the portion which goes below deck all the way to the mast step-and that part of the mast is not part of the "I" dimension.
You can't really determine the "I" dimension without having the mast in the boat. If you can tell me the distance between the mainsail tack pin and the bottom of the main halyard sheave box (the "P" dimension), I should be able to confirm if you have the std rig or the short rig-and we can have a good idea. The "P" for the std rig is 39.2', and the "P" for the tall rig is 42.5'. The "I" for the std rig should be 46.5' and 49' for the tall rig. Try and get a "P" dimension and we can go from there.
Do you have any reason to think your rig is a custom size?
Once we know this information we can review the best sail combinations.
Cheers
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sveinutne
Member III
I did some measurement of the mast today. The distance from deck to top was easy to measure, and it was 13.8 meters or 45.25 feet. This might be (I=45’3”?).</SPAN>
P was more difficult without the boom in place, but I think I could see where the boom would be, and from the top of the boom till the top of the mast is 13.0 meters or 42.6 feet. This position might be wrong, until I know where the boom will be located. So maybe P=42’6” or P =41’ and something.</SPAN>
The mast had some opening in the track that ended 13 meters from the top, but maybe the boom should be entered in that opening and then moved up or down 10”?</SPAN>
I will go down to the boat and try to measure the J that I think will be a foot longer than what is on the e39.</SPAN>
P was more difficult without the boom in place, but I think I could see where the boom would be, and from the top of the boom till the top of the mast is 13.0 meters or 42.6 feet. This position might be wrong, until I know where the boom will be located. So maybe P=42’6” or P =41’ and something.</SPAN>
The mast had some opening in the track that ended 13 meters from the top, but maybe the boom should be entered in that opening and then moved up or down 10”?</SPAN>
I will go down to the boat and try to measure the J that I think will be a foot longer than what is on the e39.</SPAN>
sveinutne
Member III
Seth,
I measured "J" the distance from the front of the mast till the head stay pin till 5.0 meters or 16.4 feet as you estimated.</SPAN></SPAN>
If we let the mast be straight up from the deck we get for the distance from the head stay pin till the top of the mast 14.7 meters or 48.1 feet as the distance. If the mast got a slight angel to the back, it might be closer to 48.5 feet. This is close to the number you mention for </SPAN></SPAN>"I" for the tall rig. So maybe I got a tall rig that has been cut some inches because of corrosion.</SPAN></SPAN>
I measured "J" the distance from the front of the mast till the head stay pin till 5.0 meters or 16.4 feet as you estimated.</SPAN></SPAN>
If we let the mast be straight up from the deck we get for the distance from the head stay pin till the top of the mast 14.7 meters or 48.1 feet as the distance. If the mast got a slight angel to the back, it might be closer to 48.5 feet. This is close to the number you mention for </SPAN></SPAN>"I" for the tall rig. So maybe I got a tall rig that has been cut some inches because of corrosion.</SPAN></SPAN>
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More measurements
Good morning Sven,
As I mentioned, the "I" measurement, which together with the "J" measurement, determines the sizes of the headsails. I also mentioned that the base of "I" is essentially taken on deck where the chainplates are anchored to the deck, NOT where the mast goes through the deck. The reference you took at the deck cutout is at about 12"-15" (height of cabin top above deck) above the base of "I". Actually, this makes sense if you measured a possible "I" of 45.25, you would add about 12-15" of so at the bottom to reach the actual bottom of "I", and then subtract a few inches at the top if you measured all the way to the top. My guess is you will find the "I" to be within inches of 46.5"
I repeat that you cannot measure or determine the "I" measurement with the mast out of the boat.
Just to be clear, the top of the mast is irrelevant to any of these. The reference for the top of "I" is the top of the the genoa halyard sheave. The reference for the top of "P" is the "highest point you can possibly raise the mainsail headboard". I usually note the bottom of the main halyard sheave box, or you can mark a point about 2" below the bottom edge of the main halyard sheave. The location of the tack pin for the mainsail would be close enough for the bottom end of "P".
I realize there may be some language difficulty (although your English is excellent), so if there is still confusion you can email me directly: sethtec@aol.com, and maybe we can exchange telephone numbers.
Good luck,
Good morning Sven,
As I mentioned, the "I" measurement, which together with the "J" measurement, determines the sizes of the headsails. I also mentioned that the base of "I" is essentially taken on deck where the chainplates are anchored to the deck, NOT where the mast goes through the deck. The reference you took at the deck cutout is at about 12"-15" (height of cabin top above deck) above the base of "I". Actually, this makes sense if you measured a possible "I" of 45.25, you would add about 12-15" of so at the bottom to reach the actual bottom of "I", and then subtract a few inches at the top if you measured all the way to the top. My guess is you will find the "I" to be within inches of 46.5"
I repeat that you cannot measure or determine the "I" measurement with the mast out of the boat.
Just to be clear, the top of the mast is irrelevant to any of these. The reference for the top of "I" is the top of the the genoa halyard sheave. The reference for the top of "P" is the "highest point you can possibly raise the mainsail headboard". I usually note the bottom of the main halyard sheave box, or you can mark a point about 2" below the bottom edge of the main halyard sheave. The location of the tack pin for the mainsail would be close enough for the bottom end of "P".
I realize there may be some language difficulty (although your English is excellent), so if there is still confusion you can email me directly: sethtec@aol.com, and maybe we can exchange telephone numbers.
Good luck,
sveinutne
Member III
Seth</SPAN></SPAN>
Thank you for clearing things up. Yes I was confused about where to measure the “I”, but now I understand and I agree with you that my “I” is most likely very close to 46.5” and “J” till 16.4” so that means I got a standard E41 rig. OK good to get the basic clear.</SPAN></SPAN>
Thank you for clearing things up. Yes I was confused about where to measure the “I”, but now I understand and I agree with you that my “I” is most likely very close to 46.5” and “J” till 16.4” so that means I got a standard E41 rig. OK good to get the basic clear.</SPAN></SPAN>
sveinutne
Member III
I like to race, but I will not be able to get my Ericson into racing condition this year, and if I will race it in 2013 deepens on many things, so maybe I should focus on cruising now. There is a good furling system on the boat, and I hope to use it during cruising. If I should have the sail re-cut for the E41, I wonder if it will be possible to use it with the furling system, or maybe a 170% will be too much for the furling system? Also any work on sail is very expensive to do in Norway, so maybe it will be better to get it re-cut in the US?</SPAN>
Any thought on the furling system and 170% Genoa?</SPAN>
Also the spinnaker pole was left in Florida in 2009 by a mistake, and now it is lost, so I will need to get a new spinnaker pole, but it will not have a high priority this year. So where others might choose to use the spinnaker I might try to use the 170% Genoa. That is my idea before I have started sailing the E41. Maybe I will change my mind when I have gotten some hands on experience.</SPAN>
Any thought on the furling system and 170% Genoa?</SPAN>
Also the spinnaker pole was left in Florida in 2009 by a mistake, and now it is lost, so I will need to get a new spinnaker pole, but it will not have a high priority this year. So where others might choose to use the spinnaker I might try to use the 170% Genoa. That is my idea before I have started sailing the E41. Maybe I will change my mind when I have gotten some hands on experience.</SPAN>
sveinutne
Member III
I guess it was greed that drove me, thinking that I could get a fee Genoa for me E41. With my limited knowledge about the Ericson, I thought first that my E41 was taller and had a longer "J" then the E39, so a 170% Genoa on the E39 would be close to a 155% Genoa on my E41 which is what I need. But now I see the E39 got the same "J" and a much taller mast, so the free Genoa will need a recut, transport, custom and vat in Norway. This will be $500-1000, so then it is not free any longer.
Giving away a sail like this is a great gesture, but I think if a person in US can use it with no recut there will be almost no extra expenses, and a much better deal, so I pass on this for now. I will first get my mast in place and test all the sail I got, and then see what I really need. So next summer I will pull my hair when I have to pay $5000 for a sail that is close to one I almost got for free.
Giving away a sail like this is a great gesture, but I think if a person in US can use it with no recut there will be almost no extra expenses, and a much better deal, so I pass on this for now. I will first get my mast in place and test all the sail I got, and then see what I really need. So next summer I will pull my hair when I have to pay $5000 for a sail that is close to one I almost got for free.
sveinutne
Member III
Pacific Sail Trader
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</tbody>I am bidding on this sail, but I am not sure if it is a 150% or 170% Genoa. How can you tell?
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sveinutne
Member III
On the Ericson 41 there is about 16 feet from the tack to the mast, and I guess that is about 100%. So 31 feet should be 31/16 =1.9 or 190%. This must be wrong but I assume then it will be close to a 170%?</SPAN>
Sorry Chris for high jacking your thread, I will try to jump out of this and wish you good luck with your nice gesture.</SPAN>
Sorry Chris for high jacking your thread, I will try to jump out of this and wish you good luck with your nice gesture.</SPAN>
Sail size
You are right- it looks like something slightly bigger than 180%, so you will likely need to cut it down. The only way you will be able to trim it is to sheet it to the very aft corner of the boat and then use a downhaul/barber hauler to effective adjust the lead forward. It will not fit on any of your existing tracks (maybe even at 170% you will need to do this).
Because of the sheeting position you should be aware this will only be a reaching sail-you cannot achieve a sheeting angle apprpriate for upwind sailing since it is larger than your tracks can accomodate.
Your J is 16.5 feet. Does the seller provide the "LP" of the sail? This is the distance from the clew ring (bearing point) to a point along the luff which is perpendicular to the luff-"LP" stands for luff perpendicular. The sailmaker/seller can certainly give you the LP on the sail, and if you divide the LP by the J (16.5) you will know the size of the sail for your boat.
The LP will be slightly less than the foot in most circumstances, so using 31 feet as a surrogate this sail would 1.88 x J, or 188%. My guess is it will work out to slightly less when you apply the measured LP to the formula instead of the foot.
So, either way, this is at least 180% and as such cannot be sheeted properly for upwind sailing-you will have to treat it as a reaching genoa in terms of the lead as I describe above.
How much luff length do you have available?
If you can tell me this and what the actual LP on the sail is I can give you some more guidance on how and where to cut the sail down. One other concern will be the leech length-you need to be sure the clew will be high enough above the deck to achieve ANY type of sheeting angle. Once I know your available luff and headstay length I can give you a roughb estimate. Any sailmaker should be able to draw up a scaled sailplan and give you a better idea.
Good luck
You are right- it looks like something slightly bigger than 180%, so you will likely need to cut it down. The only way you will be able to trim it is to sheet it to the very aft corner of the boat and then use a downhaul/barber hauler to effective adjust the lead forward. It will not fit on any of your existing tracks (maybe even at 170% you will need to do this).
Because of the sheeting position you should be aware this will only be a reaching sail-you cannot achieve a sheeting angle apprpriate for upwind sailing since it is larger than your tracks can accomodate.
Your J is 16.5 feet. Does the seller provide the "LP" of the sail? This is the distance from the clew ring (bearing point) to a point along the luff which is perpendicular to the luff-"LP" stands for luff perpendicular. The sailmaker/seller can certainly give you the LP on the sail, and if you divide the LP by the J (16.5) you will know the size of the sail for your boat.
The LP will be slightly less than the foot in most circumstances, so using 31 feet as a surrogate this sail would 1.88 x J, or 188%. My guess is it will work out to slightly less when you apply the measured LP to the formula instead of the foot.
So, either way, this is at least 180% and as such cannot be sheeted properly for upwind sailing-you will have to treat it as a reaching genoa in terms of the lead as I describe above.
How much luff length do you have available?
If you can tell me this and what the actual LP on the sail is I can give you some more guidance on how and where to cut the sail down. One other concern will be the leech length-you need to be sure the clew will be high enough above the deck to achieve ANY type of sheeting angle. Once I know your available luff and headstay length I can give you a roughb estimate. Any sailmaker should be able to draw up a scaled sailplan and give you a better idea.
Good luck
sveinutne
Member III
It will be interesting to test this sail, and yes it will not be for upwind sailing. I still do not have a spinnaker pole, and my wife will not sail with a spinnaker, so this is meant as substitute for the spinnaker. I am not sure about the question:
"How much luff length do you have available?"
The tracks are going all the way back, so 38-41 feet from the tack; also I have put in an electric operated winch that is located in the center of the boat all the way in the back, just behind my back. I got two switches one on each side that can operate the winch by foot. The idea is to sail it shorthanded and be able to fine control the genoa from the steering position.
At first I will not make any cut to it, and just try it out to see if it can be used as is.
"How much luff length do you have available?"
The tracks are going all the way back, so 38-41 feet from the tack; also I have put in an electric operated winch that is located in the center of the boat all the way in the back, just behind my back. I got two switches one on each side that can operate the winch by foot. The idea is to sail it shorthanded and be able to fine control the genoa from the steering position.
At first I will not make any cut to it, and just try it out to see if it can be used as is.
Luff length and other things
I was asking how long of a luff length will fit on your headstay? If you have a furler, this would be the distance between the upper and lower furling drums, if not, it would be the distance from the tack pin to the genoa halyard shackle when it is raised to the top. In both cases I would subtract about 6" for stretch.
If you are saying that the outboard tracks extend all the way to the stern, then you should be able to find a decent location to lead the sheet, but I would still lead it all the way back and then use a downhauler for fine tuning-remember that especially with reaching sails, as you ease the sheet on broader angles the top of sail twists off dramatically so that you need to move the lead forward progressively as you ease the sail. The easiest way to do this is to run the sheet (which is led to the back of the track) through a block, which is attached to a line running through another block on the rail (this is the barber hauler/sheet downhaul rig). As you pull down on this line (via a spare winch) you are effectively moving the lead forward, and as you ease it you move the lead effectively aft. Of course you can just move the sheet block on the rail, but that is very hard to do under load.
Good luck!
I was asking how long of a luff length will fit on your headstay? If you have a furler, this would be the distance between the upper and lower furling drums, if not, it would be the distance from the tack pin to the genoa halyard shackle when it is raised to the top. In both cases I would subtract about 6" for stretch.
If you are saying that the outboard tracks extend all the way to the stern, then you should be able to find a decent location to lead the sheet, but I would still lead it all the way back and then use a downhauler for fine tuning-remember that especially with reaching sails, as you ease the sheet on broader angles the top of sail twists off dramatically so that you need to move the lead forward progressively as you ease the sail. The easiest way to do this is to run the sheet (which is led to the back of the track) through a block, which is attached to a line running through another block on the rail (this is the barber hauler/sheet downhaul rig). As you pull down on this line (via a spare winch) you are effectively moving the lead forward, and as you ease it you move the lead effectively aft. Of course you can just move the sheet block on the rail, but that is very hard to do under load.
Good luck!
