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E-29 weather helm

L

L124C

Member I
Just sailed a buddies E-29, (early 80's vintage). He just bought the boat, and is an inexperienced sailor, so I was at the helm. Had a full main and a 110 head sail up with about 20 knots of wind on the beam. The boat would be sailing along fine, then suddenly head upwind (almost violently) and the only way to regain control was to blow the main. She would do the same thing headed down wind (and the helm was a lot of work!), even with a reef in the main. Sailed close hauled nicely with and without the reef. In retrospect, my sense is that we would have performed much better without any main at all. The wind was a somewhat gusty, and multi directional at times. Even taking that into consideration, the boat was a handful. Thoughts?
 
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Randy Rutledge

Randy Rutledge

Sustaining Member
First, is this a tall rig or a standard rig? The tall rig has less weather helm I am told, the boom is 10 feet insted of 12.

My E29 is a Tall rig, with wind of 20 knots I have seen over 7 knots with just a 110, I have also run a 155 and full main in 20 knots, this requires the easing of the main as the puffs (if you can call then puffs in over 20 knot wind) come on not after they have layed the boat over. If the mail is stretched out it could cause the boat to be poorly balanced. Trimming the main in tight in this kind of weather will make going tough. I often with the 155 and full main in 18 to 20 knots of wind will run the mailn eased to the point the front third is backed of caved in just short of flogging.
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The "main" problem is.............

Our boat has about a 50/50 rig, i.e. the E is close to equaling the J. I'm not sure what the ratio is for the E-29.
At about 15 to 17 kts true I put a single reef in our main. It's a big sail and this reduces the area, moves the center of the sail area forward, and lowers the center of the area. Sometimes I still need to play the traveler up n down for the puffs.

Our particular sail is in good condition, but your friend may have a well-used (up) main that's stretched out with a big belly that also moves aft with increasing wind pressure.

If the cloth is still in decent condition, a re-seaming should help a LOT.
Note also that September starts the annual new-sail-discount season for most lofts.

So focus on sail shape, and learning to reef before sailing out in big air... (20 is a large number of knots...)
:rolleyes:

Best,
Loren
 
simdim

simdim

Member II
I never run on full main and 155 Genoa in 20 knots - it would be ugly (to me ... I do not like water going over the rail :)) . In that much wind I have 1 reef in the main and reduce head to 100 or so. On the other hand after I had put bigger rudder in my e29 3/4 of my complains had gone away - she sails like a dream.
 
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M

Morgan Stinemetz

Moderator
Too Much

Too much main up. In 20 knots you could have sailed with the jib alone. Try it sometime. Saves wear and tear on the sphincter muscle.
 
Dave N

Dave N

Member III
try this

Rake the mast forward by easing the backstay and tightening the forestay. Moving the center of effort forward this way will have a very positive effect on the weather helm issue. How much to move it will depend on how you are currently set up. Boats sail much better, especially to weather, with a balanced rig. This means you must reef the main and put up a smaller headsail or roll up some on the furler. Keeping both sails up, IMO, is the only way to fly.
 
ignacio

ignacio

Member III
Blogs Author
Definitely too much main. This time of year (with typical 15-25 knot days in the SF bay), I sail with a 95% and a single reef in the main. When close-hauled, I'll trim the jib accordingly, but ease the main so it forms a "bubble" on the luff (about 1/4-ish of the sail?). Definitely a more manageable ride. I've also sailed in these conditions under jib alone, but the lee-helm this creates (because the wind on the jib makes the boat want to bear away) might make tacking more interesting. I've done it when I've only needed to be on one tack for a while, and still had great speed (6-7 knots).
 
CaptDan

CaptDan

Member III
Indeed. We're talking SF Bay in the summer. :)

Our main is getting long in the tooth and a bit baggy in the belly. Even still, with one reef and the 85% yankee cut jib, the boat'll lay into a nice groove with little weather helm and good turn of speed around 17-20 kts true. I've tried it with our radial cut genoa rolled down to 120 and two main'sl reefs, but in those conditions, the helm just doesn't balance well on any point of sail.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
 
L

L124C

Member I
When is a double reef necessary?

The main definitely felt pretty soft when we flaked it. I also never really got the out haul to function properly, so that didn't help matters. The downwind performance still surprises me though. Maybe the multi directional nature of the wind was having it's way with the old sail, by blowing briefly on the beam. She would suddenly head upwind without warning, so quickly it was shocking! In retrospect, I recalled that I talked to the previous owner after we had both been out on the same day, in the same area (me on a Yankee 30). He told me he had a double reef in the main and I was shocked. I had plenty of wind, but had never even considered reefing. I realize the boats have very different sail plans. However, this provided me with a new benchmark for a a "So. Cal boat"! I now realize it might have been the condition of the main. Generally, what conditions warrant a double reef on a E-29 with a good main? Thanks again for the input!
 
L

L124C

Member I
Randy Rutledge said:
First, is this a tall rig or a standard rig? The tall rig has less weather helm I am told, the boom is 10 feet instead of 12.

My E29 is a Tall rig, with wind of 20 knots I have seen over 7 knots with just a 110, I have also run a 155 and full main in 20 knots, this requires the easing of the main as the puffs (if you can call then puffs in over 20 knot wind) come on not after they have layed the boat over. If the mail is stretched out it could cause the boat to be poorly balanced. Trimming the main in tight in this kind of weather will make going tough. I often with the 155 and full main in 18 to 20 knots of wind will run the mailn eased to the point the front third is backed of caved in just short of flogging.
Click to expand...

It is the tall rig, so I guess 20 was a bit much. A single reef didn't improve things much though, and the boat wasn't particularly tender, even fully dressed (which is a why I didn't reef immediatelyatly). She was simply going where she wanted to go (upwind), without warning, when she wanted to go there!. So, I think main must be tired.
 
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L

L124C

Member I
simdim said:
I never run on full main and 155 Genoa in 20 knots - it would be ugly (to me ... I do not like water going over the rail :)) . In that much wind I have 1 reef in the main and reduce head to 100 or so. On the other hand after I had put bigger rudder in my e29 3/4 of my complains had gone away - she sails like a dream.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Going downwind in moderate seas, even when I had her under control, I was a very busy boy! I was thinking; "I feel like I could use more rudder". What were the "complaints" that promptedd you to install a larger rudder?
 
M

Morgan Stinemetz

Moderator
Double Reef

That's hard to spell out precisely for you. You'll know when you've had more experience. I've sailed straight downwind with a double reefed main and a storm jib, and I am glad I was able to get both sails up before I went "out into it," and this was on the ICW in Florida. There were four guys on the boat and they were all good sailors. But to make matters wore, we ran into a lovely blonde woman where we tied up who was much too drunk to drive, and we kept her on the boat that night, too. That's the only time the sleeping facilities on my E-27 were maxed out. But that's another story. Usually, when a double reefed main is really necessary, and you have a choice, stay home. It just isn't worth it. If you are caught out, sail on the point of sail that is the most comfortable. But get the reefs in early. EARLY.
 
steven

steven

Sustaining Member
You didn't mention the sea state. If you have a beam or (worse) quartering swell or chop, it can all at once roll you, pivot your stern to leeward around the keel, and bury your bow. Result is a broach.

--Steve
 
L

L124C

Member I
Morgan Stinemetz said:
That's hard to spell out precisely for you. You'll know when you've had more experience. I've sailed straight downwind with a double reefed main and a storm jib, and I am glad I was able to get both sails up before I went "out into it," and this was on the ICW in Florida. There were four guys on the boat and they were all good sailors. But to make matters wore, we ran into a lovely Blondie woman where we tied up who was much too drunk to drive, and we kept her on the boat that night, too. That's the only time the sleeping facilities on my E-27 were maxed out. But that's another story. Usually, when a double reefed main is really necessary, and you have a choice, stay home. It just isn't worth it. If you are caught out, sail on the point of sail that is the most comfortable. But get the reefs in early. EARLY.
Click to expand...
Thats why I asked "generally". For example on my Yankee, I reef around 25, and have never needed a second reef. However, I think you answered my question (assuming the E-29 reefs later than a E-27). Sounds like the PO was putting in a second reef before he should have needed one, which brings us back to the sail condition.
How kind of you to take the beautiful drunk woman in. I'm guessing someone didn't get much "sleep"! But....I digress.
 
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L

L124C

Member I
steven said:
You didn't mention the sea state. If you have a beam or (worse) quartering swell or chop, it can all at once roll you, pivot your stern to leeward around the keel, and bury your bow. Result is a broach.--Steve
Click to expand...
It was very moderate, and on the quarter. She was certainly twitchy given the conditions. I can't even imagine a big sea!
 
M

Morgan Stinemetz

Moderator
Reefing

On my 27, I reefed when it seemed like a good idea, often as I raised the main for the first time. Experience dictated that. Of course, you use less sail upwind and more downwind, so the point of sail plays into the equation, too.

As to the totally drunk blonde that spent the night aboard, we did the right thing. No cars for this woman. She was a model then. I met her when we were both working in a movie. As far as meeting us at this marina, I had no idea that she would arrive totally plastered. She had a serious drinking problem and eventually spent some time in jail for DUI, not her first. Nothing happened on the boat. All of us were married. She wasn't, though. I wonder why. The last time I saw her she had gained about 80 pounds. The rewards of that kind of alcohol consumption are slim. I doubt she is still alive. Alcohol took her life away long before it probably killed her.
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Regarding the reefing discussion....
Last weekend we did the annual 20+ mile downriver cruising race. Like last year the wind started at about 10 to 12 in steadily increased to 20++.
I did the whole thing with a reef in the main.
IF.... I had a boat load of racing buddies we might have used the full main, but that would have required someone to run the main sheet and traveler for over two hours of short tacking.
:rolleyes:

As it was, the shorter main set perfect.
Only regret is not having a genny smaller than the 135 we have on the furler these days.

Loren
 
steven

steven

Sustaining Member
the waves don't have to be big. If the rudder is not deep enough or has too little area, there can be control but with little safety margin. The change in attitude caused by even a small wave or moderate chop can make the rudder less effective for a few moments just when you need it most to counteract the increase in weather helm. When the waves are coming from behind, most sailors aren't looking backwards at them - so it can feel like the helm is erratic.
 
R

Ron342

Member I
Baggy old mains???

Before you and buddy spend a lot of bucks, I'm with Loren - see if you can borrow a tight main and try it in 20K, In my std rig E29 when I got her with a really bagged out main, on the wind in 18-20K and 120% needed all the rudder to hold her and was way overpowered, now with a good main and same wind and maybe 100%, 4'-5' Chesapeake chop, not quite balanced but not scary!
 
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