110 Volt Circuit Breaker box

I've recently made the unhappy discovery that the 110 volt breaker box was installed improperly - the neutrals were run through the circuit breakers and the hots were tied together - just the reverse of what they should be. I'm further dismayed the surveyor didn't pick up on this issue. The tricky part is the wires within the box are cut so short they can't be rerouted. The marina maintenance guy recommends buying a new panel and breakers and redoing that part of the installation. Question: anyone with experience on this? Any recommendations on a good 3-breaker panel for a 110 system? Suppliers? As always, thanks for any advice! (This system is in a 1973 Ericson 32 - one breaker for battery charger, one breaker for 3 forward outlets, one breaker for two aft outlets.)

A few months ago, I removed the old house style AC circuit breaker box and replaced it with this:

http://bluesea.com/products/8027

I got a good deal on Ebay, it seems to work well and it has room for other AC wiring that I may want to run in the future.

Charles

My E29 has the original box removed and it's been replaced with too many ill-advised add-ons. (The POs lived aboard but did not sail.) Unsupported ROMEX strung around, unsealed plastic boxes... nasty. I'm just doing without AC for the time being and will rip it all out at the haul-out.

Meanwhile, this may be of interest:

https://www.abyc.com/committees/E-11.pdf

Most of the Ericsons I have been on were wired this way

It is wrong, but I think one or two guys did all of them, and they did all of them the wrong way.

Guy

If all the system is backwards then the good news is that it can be mostly fixed relitively simply. While it is true that the black wire should be hot and white common, the electrons do not know this! Therefore if you can live with the wrong colors then it can be fixed at the main box. All that must be done is to run the power wire to the breakers and the common wire to the buss and make certin the ground circuit is not connected to either. then the polarity will be correct at the outlets and the only glitch is the wire color which can be delt with. Make sure that anyone who works on the system is aware of the problem until a complete rewire can be done. It is not quite kosher but is safe and workable. Good luck, Edd

exoduse35 said:

If all the system is backwards then the good news is that it can be mostly fixed relitively simply. While it is true that the black wire should be hot and white common, the electrons do not know this! Therefore if you can live with the wrong colors then it can be fixed at the main box. All that must be done is to run the power wire to the breakers and the common wire to the buss and make certin the ground circuit is not connected to either. then the polarity will be correct at the outlets and the only glitch is the wire color which can be delt with. Make sure that anyone who works on the system is aware of the problem until a complete rewire can be done. It is not quite kosher but is safe and workable. Good luck, Edd

Click to expand...

This will definitely work so long as:


1. Neither you, nor anyone who works on the boat has an attention lapse;

2. You never intend to have an insurance survey;

3. You never intend to sell the boat.

110 mistakes can be fatal, especially on the water. At a minimum, if going this route, I would get some black and white paint (or tape) and repaint/tape the wires in the boxes. Electricians doing home wiring are required to use black tape on white wires, inside boxes, when wiring switch loops.

Flipping them at the inlet or at the box wont solve the problem

If you flip them then all the plugs and 110 volt appliances in the boat are going to be reverse polarity. This creates some dangerous situations. So you would have the entire boat wired wrong, and have to fix it by changing every plug and every 110 volt appliance (the battery charger and the water heater if you have one).

The solution generally is to remove the input wire, replace it with on that is sufficient in length to go to the box and be wired correctly with the Hot side having the breaker. If the wire going to the loads is also too short, then you may need to move the box, or rewire the first leg(s) of each of them.

You can if you need to reuse what is there or take the time to redo the breaker box with one that is marine grade.

Guy

Maybe I misunderstood the situation. The way the problem was described I thought he had correct polarity going to the breaker box and reversed polarity inside the box itself. So unless whoever wired it used the white as hot going out, whatever 110 appliances he has are already reversed. Right?

Not quite.

If it is like most of the other E boats of that era that I have seen:

The power in is wired correctly
The box has a circuit breaker in it, (Only 1), which is in the neutral line(Which is unsafe, because the boat is always energized if the boat is plugged in).
The boat is wired correctly downstream of the box.

Frequently there is not a single inch of slack to be had anywhere in the system. So options get tight.

You can Move the box, (or replace it, which is a better idea), then increase the available wire length by adding wire to the input side of the equation. (ABYC etc recommend no more than 6' of line coming into the boat), Add a breaker panel with breakers on both the hot and neutral legs. Use the original wiring for the rest of the boat.

This was the AC system on a 1972 all of the circuits came out of the one box, all of the neutrals were in the breaker line, all the hots were tied together. This boat was completely rewired both AC and DC the box removed and relocated etc. That is a lot of work though, and requires a lot of know how.

Switching the wires at the main panel will work. It will be necessary to check the polarity at the outlets. (easily done with a tester available at any hardware store) and if the polarity is wrong there is enough wire to switch the terminals at the outlet. I had this same problem with mine and the polarity was also reversed and fixing the main box corrected the problem until I could rewire the whole thing. It is ultimately going to be necessary (and is long overdue) to upgrade the whole system, But in the meantime correcting it to at least function properly can get it to a point where a well thought out, quality replacement can be done. Also the exercise in making the repair will give the owner the chance to learn how the system works and make any mistakes on the old stuff. Then when it is time to do a new panel, it can be a do it yourself project armed with the confidence of knowing exactly what the task requires. Most of the work on a boat is pretty simple if you know how and the more we all get in and work at each project, the more we learn and are in the end smarter and safer boaters for it. Sorry if I rant. Edd

DIY all the way

I in no way meant that anyone could not do it themselves, I just meant that you need to do your homework first, especially with 120 v stuff.

If you have enough wire in the box, then with the power off, place the HOT on the breaker, and the neutrals together. (Instead of the other way around). However if you can you should replace the single breaker with one that breaks both the hot and the neutrals!

Guy

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the ideas to switch wires, but why not do it right and pull two new wires from the incoming shorepower connection to the box?

Thanks!

I'm grateful for all the inputs to this thread! I had no idea the issue was common to so many Ericsons. It would be interesting to know how many were built with this problem before they made corrections, or what the rationale was for the design in the first place. My plan, at this point, is to shop for a Blue Sea panel; probably with six breakers (for expansion space) and see if I can install it next to my DC panel. It will mean moving some lines but will make for a much more servicable (and safe!) installation. Moving the wires with in the box is nearly impossible - they were cut so short they barely reach and the box itself is so tight there is little room to work. The box looks similar to the picture Guy posted above. Thanks again!

I seem to recall there is a limitation (ABYC I imagine) on the distance between the shore power outlet and an AC breaker box. I don't remember the distance but maybe someone on this board does. I don't know whether this rule was in effect when your boat was built, but I doubt it.

PDX said:

I seem to recall there is a limitation (ABYC I imagine) on the distance between the shore power outlet and an AC breaker box. I don't remember the distance but maybe someone on this board does. I don't know whether this rule was in effect when your boat was built, but I doubt it.

Click to expand...

I, too, forget the actual distance, but what new boats are coming with is: shorepower inlet plug --- breaker --- wiring to AC panel --- another breaker. Can't hurt, to do so, but need access to the first breaker which protects the wire between the inlet and the main panel. My boat is a 1986, doesn't have it.

Stu Jackson said:

I, too, forget the actual distance, but what new boats are coming with is: shorepower inlet plug --- breaker --- wiring to AC panel --- another breaker. Can't hurt, to do so, but need access to the first breaker which protects the wire between the inlet and the main panel. My boat is a 1986, doesn't have it.

Click to expand...

To clarify, the Blue Sea AC panel linked above, http://bluesea.com/products/8027, has an integral main breaker, 30 amp, double pole. If the original poster follows through on his plan to get a new Blue Seas panel (and he gets the one linked), then he doesn't need anything between the shorepower inlet plug and the Blue Seas panel except wire, right?

6 feet

Thew ABYC recommendations are 6 feet maximum between the inlet plug and the breaker.

Guy

Guy Stevens said:

Thew ABYC recommendations are 6 feet maximum between the inlet plug and the breaker.
Guy

Click to expand...

Looks like the ABYC max. distance has been shortened some more since my project thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3509-Shore-Power-upgrade&referrerid=28

Good thing that I got it down to under a foot.

Putting the breaker on the backside of the shore power connector area might be something to look into. It works fine on our boat.

Loren