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wire luffs in ericson sails

davisr

Member III
Vikings,

I don't believe that my jib is original to my 1975 E25cb, but I can say that it has been around for a while. It has a wire luff sewn into it. This wire luff is used in an old Schaefer roller furler with a drum at the bottom and a swivel at the top.

The original purchase documents that I received from the prior owner indicate that wire luff jibs were the only jibs available from Ericson at the time of purchase. The documents also indicate that the original owner purchased one of these jibs. Roller furlers were not an option. Therefore, it appears that wire luff jibs were used independently. From what I can surmise, there are three advantages of a wire luff jib. First, rigged as it must be behind the forestay, it provides some insurance in the event that the forestay fails. Secondly, it allows the crew to drop the jib quickly on the deck by easing the jib halyard. Finally, it allows the crew to hank on a genoa to the forestay without first having to un-hank the jib the said forestay.

The only pictures available of early Ericson 25s do not show jibs, but only genoas and spinnakers. For example, in the attached pictures we see a genoa that is hanked on to the forestay. It would seem, however, that if there were any pictures out there of the early Ericsons flying their jibs, then they would have to be rigged aft of the forestay, just as the wire luff jib that I have is rigged on the roller furler, aft of the forestay. Isn't that right?

Thanks for any suggestions,
Roscoe

E25, cb, #226
Charleston, SC
 

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AleksT

Member III
The wire luff on the original sails were there to keep the luff tight and so that the cloth of the sail would not take excessive load and stretch. If you notice on the picture of the document list the jib came with bronze snaps. Just another word for hanks. It was hanked on.
Your furler is an aftermarket addition. Your type of furler is an all or nothing furler, it is not designed to be reefed. So if you needed another headsail (bigger or smaller depending on the wind) it is a simple job to drop the furled headsail and hank on a new non furled one. (or possibly hoist another furled headsail)
The wire in the original sail was probably (i'm guessing here) a little thinner than the wire in your current sail.

Modern furlers with foils around the headstay are designed to reef but can be a little more difficult to raise and lower especially as the sail and furler gets older.
 

davisr

Member III
Aleks,

Thanks for bringing your expertise to my questions. I didn't realize that a wire luff headsail could also be hanked-on. Now that I know this, I think that the picture I've included below makes a little more sense. It's another Ericson 25 promotional picture from the 70s. The original shows the boat flying a spinnaker. I've cropped it to focus on the foredeck. It looks to me like there is a wire luff jib lying on the deck. It looks like the wire is snaking its way along the edge of the deck and the stanchions. It also looks like there are hanks visible near the head of the sail and the halyard.

The wire is my jib is really thick, and quite unwieldy. Its hard to get an accurate measurement with the sailcloth around it, but I estimate it to be 7/16 inch. I suppose that the early Schaefer roller furlers needed wires of this thickness in order to get enough spring in the coil so to speak. Schaefer has a new version which they call the "free furler." The largest one (for boats 25-31 feet) only needs a wire that is 5/32 inch.

I've also attached two pictures of my jib. You can get a sense of the thickness of the wire in the first one. You can also see how difficult it is to stow this sail (I included the paint can for perspective). I guess the idea was that with the weight of that big wire inside the sail the crew could just drop the furled jib on the deck and put a few sails ties around it (and maybe a stanchion or two).

Does it sound like I'm on the mark with these guesstimations?

Thanks,
Roscoe
 

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AleksT

Member III
The wire in your sail is probably less than 7/16, there are probably several layers of cloth around it. If the wire is unwieldy you may want to consider asking your sailmaker to replace the wire luff with spectra or some other fancy fiber. The sailmaker would be able to recomend a thickness.
Since the spectra would be encased inside sailcloth it will not degrade from uv rays (always a problem with the fancy fibers). But it would make the sail easy to store.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Wire luff vs wire luff furling jibs

Wire luffs have not really been used in sails for several years-but many older hank-on sails had them for reasons already described. The wire used in these sails was not intended to support the mast or replace the actual headstay. That said, the sail in your picture is quite different-the type of furler that sail was designed for was (as you said) set back from the headstay, but when it was unfurled it provided the mast support the headstay would normally provide.

Here's the thing: That type of furler is not really in use anymore for cruising sails-modern cruising furlers use a foil device and the sail has a luff tape which slides into it. Given the cost of sails and a new furler I could not imagine attempting to have a sail built for the old style furler-although if you did, the sailmaker would use something like dyneema instead of wire-it is lighter, more flexible, stronger and smaller diameter.

Cheers,
S
 

davisr

Member III
Thanks Aleks and Seth,
In terms of the wire luff, I should add that, aside from the wire being unwieldy, it's also hidden from view, so it's impossible for me to inspect it. Given that it (the wire) probably dates to the early 80s, it seems that it would be unwise for me to put a lot of faith in it. The sail itself is fairly good condition, but I'm not sure it would be worth the money to pay a sailmaker to make the alterations that would transform it into a Spectra-luffed, hanked-on jib.

All things considered, it seems the most feasible course of action is to ditch both the furler and the sail. I'm not at the point where I can invest in a new roller-furler, and I'm not averse to dealing with hanked on sails, so I'm thinking that a hanked-on jib with a downhaul led aft would be workable, especially since this boat is primarily a trailerable vessel.

Back in 2005 Steve Swann and some other guys (Seth included!) discussed hanked-on headsails.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...ib-size-for-an-E25&p=9670&highlight=#post9670

Steve later posted a picture of his E25 sailing the waters of Idaho in 2008. A real beauty. The hanks appear to extend along the forestay.Thanks for the use of your picture to illustrate this Steve.

Roscoe
 

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Greg Ross

Not the newest member
I reached the same conclusion times 2

I brought LAYLA home 6 yeas ago from Philadelphia, after rigging her out for her first season the schaeffer furlers were a PIA. Both my foresails had these furlers and neither of them worked very well. The problem appeared to be primarily in the upper swivel. It would bind occasionally and the sail would start to furl around the main forestay.
The furling sails that came with the boat both looked quite fresh, the genoa in particular looked relatively new so assumed it had been trimmed up to suit the old furler.
Purchase of replacement foil type furler(s) including alterations to the two head sails was out of the question at the time so I opted to just bag the existing sails and pick up a couple of experienced hank-on sails.
It took a while but I eventually was able to find a staysail and jib that fell within the diminsions that I'd scaled out. A web search will raise probably 1/2 a dozen re-sellers with on-line inventories. If you don't see what you like then check back often.
This is about 4 seasons now with hank-ons and I'm pretty happy with them. That furling Genoa that's sitting home in the barn would generate some more power in my sail plan so I might consider having the Loft look at stripping off the UV cover and rebuilding it as a hank-on;
 

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davisr

Member III
Greg,

Thanks for filling me in on your own personal experience with these old Schaefer furlers. There must be many of these still out there, but there are few discussions of them out there in cyberworld. Sounds like it's definitely time to put mine aside as a museum piece/conversation piece on the workshop shelf.

That boat of yours . . . it sure is a head-turner. I spent a little time last night reading about the Independence 31. Sounds like a real champ.

Your use of hanked-on headsails cuts against the conventional present-day wisdom that roller-furlers are the way to go. Nevertheless, it appears that they've served you well over the past four years (even though you must deal with not one, but two headsails). Do you have yours rigged with downhauls led aft?

Regards,
Roscoe
 

Greg Ross

Not the newest member
Downhauls, nope

Roscoe,

Your research on the Independence could be hazardous, you could easily be smitten!

I've been collecting bits for the boat now for 6 years, I enjoy eBay and in particular, some of the fine classic bronze stuff that materializes there. I've got a collection of projects that could keep my spare time occupied for years!

I guess I have gone the opposite way, hank-ons are working pretty well for me. Maybe a bit of a nuicense for day sailing but with the addition of a heavy weather storm jib in place of the staysail for a bad blow and a light air balloon of some description I'll be set for any scenario. I've got a collection of garhauer blocks that will eventually allow everything off the mast to be routed aft. My wife always has a grim look for me as I dance around up forward raising and lowering sail. She knows in the event that I do take the plunge she's going to have to be the one to rescue me.

The set of double blocks mounted to stanchion bases down the port side, left over from Schaeffer furler duty would be the easy fix for routing downhaul lines back aft. I had not considered that previously but it's a fine idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

The attached sail and layout plan has been altered to reflect what I am going to tackle next on LAYLA II, that being the addition of a toeboard down the deck/ side. Along with a set of 12 bronze stanchions, basically to eliminate the majority of the stainless hardware above deck.
There are several other little gems revealed there in that sketch that are in my inventory;
the stern light (Perko brass and bronze) to mount on the split backstay, and
a pair or (Wilcox Crittenden bronze) nav lights mounted on Nav Boards/ mounted on the lower stays.
The big (Perko) steaming light is already on the mast and functioning. (all of them converted to LED)
 

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davisr

Member III
Greg,

I think you're right. It sure is hard not to fall in love with that Independence 31. I tried to look at the details of your plan, but the resolution was not high enough.

From the way you describe your project and goals, it sounds like you will really enjoy that Bruce Bingham book we talked about on the dinghy thread earlier today. Bingham's philosophy, which is scattered here and there among the pages of The Sailor's Sketchbook, is that the difference between a sailboat and a yacht is in the care that is given to the vessel and the attention given to the details.

When you mentioned your pending toe-rail project, you brought to mind an article I read recently on Tim Lackey's webpage concerning his refitting of his Pearson Triton, Glissando. Maybe you've stumbled across Tim's page before. I've learned a lot from his many projects. The article I read the other day addressed a toe-rail installation that went wrong. http://www.triton381.com/

Being the bronze aficionado that you are, you might appreciate a glance at this Wilcox Crittenden bronze strum box that came with my boat. The PO had screwed a cast-iron fitting into it so as to join it to the bilge hose. The cast-iron crumbled when I squeezed it with a set of channel-lock pliers. I thought I'd never be able to salvage the piece on account of the seeming damage to the threads. A little afternoon work, though, with a dremel, cleaned that baby right up.

Regards,
Roscoe
 

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Greg Ross

Not the newest member
Cleaning up old bronze

If you'd be interested in seeing that Independence 31 sketch full size, send me an email address via a PM.
Our Independence 31 mentor, Glen Judson uses muriatic acid to strip/ descale/ and generally clean bronze items. As mentioned previously , I frequent eBay and came across a pair of NOS pole ends that were suitable for a light whisker pole I am in need of. The eBay Seller only offered shipping to US buyers so these were diverted to Glyn. He had to treat them before dispatching them to me. muriatic acid, typically used for cleaning concrete (eg; oil stains) really works well on steel as well, all the rust ans scale comes off!
before and after images below;
 

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Keiffer

Member II
Roller Furling

When we purchased Emerald Lady she came equipped with the original Schaffer roller furlers. After some investigation I found that among other drawbacks they had a history of potential catastrophic failure. That was enough for me. I did want to stay with roller furlers and went with two new Harken furlers. I was able to have the wire cut out of the sails and re-use both head sails.

DSCN7686.jpg
 

davisr

Member III
Keiffer,

Thanks for filling me in on your research. I had not heard about the catastrophic failures. Glad to know that you found it worthwhile to alter your headsails. Maybe mine's not a lost cause after all.

Man, you Independence 31 owners sure do have some mighty fine boats . . . and a fondness for bronze.

Regards,
Roscoe
 
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