• Untitled Document

    Join us on March 29rd, 7pm EST

    for the CBEC Virtual Meeting

    All EYO members and followers are welcome to join the fun and get to know the guest speaker!

    See the link below for login credentials and join us!

    March Meeting Info

    (dismiss this notice by hitting 'X', upper right)

Bilge Flow - e29

plorette

Junior Member
On my recently purchased e-29 (1972 hull 204) there are two bilge access hatches in the main salon ( center of floor and near stairs), and one in the hanging locker across from the head. From bow to stern, the flow of water is as follows. The anchor locker flows into the forward storage area under the v-berth. There is a bulkhead separating the forward and aft v-berth storage areas. There is no drainage through the bulkhead from the forward area to the back area under the v-berth. The port side of the aft v-berth storage area flows into a bilge area under the hanging locker on the port side but then does not drain any further into the main bilge area under the salon, I have to empty it with a sponge after cleaning. The starboard side of the v-berth storage area then flows under the head, under the starboard settee and then drains down to the main bilge area. The port settee storage area and the storage area under the stove do not drain into the main salon bilge and also have to be drained with a sponge. My question is, shouldn't all water be able to flow from the anchor locker in the bow, through to the main bilge area, and ultimately, to the pumps (one manual and one electric) near the engine or is there a reason why it does not?

Much appreciated.
 

toddbrsd

Ex-Viking, Now Native American
I have an E-27, but should be fairly similar to the E-29. Everything in my 27 flows eventually to the bilge near the companionway stairs. You did not mention if you tried to use a plumber's snake to dislodge any potential blockages? That would be my first guess. I would start from the lowest point, because if that is where there is a blockage, would cause all of the problems you have indicated.
 

paul culver

Member III
I haven't checked under the vee berth in my E29 but the hatch areas you describe are connected by horizontally drilled holes (I think they're called limbers). They're only about 1/4" diameter so they tend to get clogged.

Paul
E29 "Bear"
 

plorette

Junior Member
Thanks,

This is my first boat and I am new to sailing. It seemed that there should be drainage from the bow, back to the bilge pump area under the companionway but I couldn't see any holes while I was cleaning out the storage areas and the bilges. Looks like I will need to drill a few.

Paul.
 

adam

Member III
Before you cut any holes in your boat, I'll take a look today and tell you what I find on my E29.
 

Greg Ross

Not the newest member
Know what you're drilling into

Over the past couple of years I had looked several times (most recently with flashlight and mirror) to try and figure out why, on the few occasions I've had water in the mid-ships' bilge, that it did not readily drain.
On the I-31 the head compartment has a drain (shower) that drains to? the mid-ships bilge which surrounds the base of the compression post. Aft of that is a ply bulkhead/ saloon sole support.
With very awkward positioning it is possible to get your arm into that shallow bilge to shove an electric drill into position. I did have this exchange with David/ Emerald recalling that he had drilled a limber hole for drainage. The complication on the I-31 is the location of one of two water tanks, somewhere aft of that bulkhead. I found it with the pilot drill of the hole saw I was brandishing.
Firstly I was expecting that there would be some gap between the bulkhead and the tank and secondly, my grand plan was to remove the pilot drill bit once I had gotten the hole saw cutter started. Oops. With little resistance I drilled thru the tank. The lack of resistance was relatively punky plywood.
With some digging I came up with the right size SS robinson screw/ washer, gooped it with 3M 4200. The robinson was the preferred driver profile since it will reliably stay on a screw driver when working in a blind spot like this.
Drove it home and allowed the 4200 to kick off. Tested it with a bump from the fill hose/ blocking the vent. No leaks and my mid-bilge is now dry.
No pain, no gain?
 

adam

Member III
You're absolutely right. What a bizarre design decision. And it should probably be fixed.

However... here's one problem that I see:

Right now, the fiberglass tabbing is protecting the wood from exposure to water (unless you get more than 3" of water in there). If you drill through the that bulkhead then draining water will contact the wood. Slowly that wood will absorb the water, weaken, and then just disintegrate away. So, if you drill a hole, you probably will have to seal it really well with epoxy after you drill it.

Also on my boat, there also seems to be a wooden platform which supports the holding tank. That would also be exposed to water draining from the bow section if a hole is drilled, so it should probably also be somehow sealed.

But I'm anything but an expert, so please seek some more opinions before drilling any holes.

I'm going to be following this thread because I will want to make the same changes you're making here, after I install a deck plate for my anchor rode.

-A
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
My E29 is as you describe. When I took possession, there was about 10 gallons of nice clean rainwater in that forward locker, that I had to pump out. I'm thinking of some way to re-route the drain from the chain locker. However, it occurred to me that the stock arrangement provides some degree of protection from collision damage. Any hole below the waterline in the forward section would fill that forward locker, but the bulkhead would prevent any water from running deeper into the boat. If the drains were connected, the whole boat could fill. I was also thinking that locker would be a neat location for through-hull instrument transducers, for the same reason.
 
Last edited:

adam

Member III
However, it occurred to me that the stock arrangement provides some degree of protection from collision damage. Any hole below the waterline in the forward section would fill that forward locker, but the bulkhead would prevent any water from running deeper into the boat. If the drains were connected, the whole boat could fill. I was also thinking that locker would be a neat location for through-hull instrument transducers, for the same reason.

Todd, I have to question your logic.

A 1" hole from a collision would let in about 20 gallons a minute if it's 12" below the surface. That would fill the forward section in a couple of minutes, and then water would simply spill through the access hatch into the rest of the boat.

It would actually make things worse because as the bow section fills with water, the bow of the boat would sink, the hole would go deeper into the water, under more pressure, and water would come in even faster.

It seems it would be _much_ better if the water from a puncture could run to the bottom of the bilge, keep your boat level, and start pumping it out right away. In an ideal world, you'd actually want to move as much weight as possible to your stern to put the hole in a shallower depth, or even raise it completely out of the water, while you work on patching it.

Here's what a neighbor at my marina recommended and it makes total sense to me. Instead of simply drilling a hole, a bit of PVC or hose should be sealed into that hole and run down to the bilge. But that would always leave a bit of water down there. So, I might just cut away a bit of the bottom of the bulkhead to let all of the water drain, and find some other way to make sure the water goes where I want it.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Todd, I have to question your logic.

A 1" hole from a collision would let in about 20 gallons a minute if it's 12" below the surface. That would fill the forward section in a couple of minutes, and then water would simply spill through the access hatch into the rest of the boat.

It would actually make things worse because as the bow section fills with water, the bow of the boat would sink, the hole would go deeper into the water, under more pressure, and water would come in even faster.

It seems it would be _much_ better if the water from a puncture could run to the bottom of the bilge, keep your boat level, and start pumping it out right away. In an ideal world, you'd actually want to move as much weight as possible to your stern to put the hole in a shallower depth, or even raise it completely out of the water, while you work on patching it.

Here's what a neighbor at my marina recommended and it makes total sense to me. Instead of simply drilling a hole, a bit of PVC or hose should be sealed into that hole and run down to the bilge. But that would always leave a bit of water down there. So, I might just cut away a bit of the bottom of the bulkhead to let all of the water drain, and find some other way to make sure the water goes where I want it.

I'm pretty sure that first bulkhead reaches well above the water line. The total volume below the water line in that locker is only about 10 - 15 gallons. It can't "pull the bow down" significantly.

I too was considering installing bulkhead connectors, with ball valves, and tubing leading to the bilge. But I'm afraid that they would clog unless they were large and obtrusive.

For reference, here's a picture of my boat, taken when that locker was, in fact, full of water.
View attachment 9282
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0019.jpg
    DSC_0019.jpg
    32.8 KB · Views: 266
Last edited:

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
curiouser and curiouser.
I was poking about in the bilges yesterday (obviously I was supposed to be writing reports) and I remembered this thread. In fact the port and starboard V-berth lockers are joined together at their forward ends. They both drain into mystery space beneath the liner. Nothing drains into the settee lockers.
The small bilge under the closet (this is the Mk I design) is connected to this mystery space. If you are a contortionist with skinny arms, you can reach back under the sole and discover two low spots on either side of the keel that cannot drain into anything. They are always full of nasty... fluid.
So that's where that odor is coming from - conveniently vented right into the closet :rolleyes_d:

There is a limber hole under the closet, leading to the main bilge, but it's fairly high. It will only work if the boat is pitched over pretty steep on a starboard tack. This bilge is also where the through-hulls for the speed and depth instruments are located. So the mystery space will always take on water when the speed sensor is swapped for the bung. (I also discovered the bung for the old speed sensor, apparently never used, way back in mystery space.)

It may be wishful thinking, but from the depression molded into the sole in front of the head, it looks as if this "mystery space" might be intended to hold a shower pan, if that depression were cut out. Then the closet bilge might be expected to hold a bilge pump. Ah well, I have enough trouble er, projects going right now. But I don't see any way to dry that hidden bilge, other than reaching around and stuffing a towel in there. Every time the boat is used. :(

Continuing farther back, there is a plywood divider tabbed in under the salon sole that divides the main bilge fore and aft. It has a crudely cut opening so water can flow back to the sump. If cleaned out and filled with ice, that forward bilge sure looks like a beer cooler to me... :thinker:

Just to make it all a bit more graphic (in case any non e29'ers care)

e29 bilges.jpg
 
Last edited:

thomthod

Member II
I have a 71 E29 and I have noticed the same thing with that space in the closet. I put soapy water in there to clean it out thinking that it would flow to the bilge but it did not. I had to manually pump it out.



Thom


Blooz Traveler
 

Attachments

  • 736.jpg
    736.jpg
    55.2 KB · Views: 167

MarkA

Please Contact Admin.
I just came across this thread.Do not drill forward vee-berth area--it's a water tight bulkhead for a reason! If you hit floating debris or a dock, it will keep you from sinking. Obviously it won't help if you rip the hull in a grounding, but it will mitigate damages from the more common head-on problems.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Thanks Mark, that was my thought as well. Although I thought it would be safe to put in a bulkhead connector with a valve (normally closed) to drain "section 1" back to the bilge. Barring that, seal off the bow compartment or stop using it as a chain locker and make it "dry."

I still can't figure out why "section 2" doesn't drain. Its little bulkhead tops out well below the waterline, so there's no collision protection there. I REALLY don't want to risk messing it up though, since it appears to support the compression post.

It would seem ludicrous to put three bilge pumps in a little boat like this. I'm still curious though, whether anyone has turned that hidden bilge between the head and the hanging locker into a shower pan.

BTW: Here's a great gag for anyone contemplating adding a bilge pump. I went for a cruise on a Hunter last fall on which the bilge discharge was located on the starboard side mid-ship. It also had a leaky packing gland, so the pump cycled often. Usually exactly when somebody was walking along the dock. Or standing there talking. "Hey... your boat just peed on me! :mad: )
 

MarkA

Please Contact Admin.
I can't help ya with the weird bilge sections. My boat has a teak & holly sole with removable center sections so I have full access to the entire bilge, except for directly under the mast step. The only parts not connected to the bilge are two compartments under the vee berth, and the sump under the motor. The most forward section tends to collect water because I need to re-bed the bow cleats and pulpit stanchions, which are over the chain locker (all will be done during my next project, which is mounting an anchor roller). All the center bilge sections are connected through small holes in the ribs that are probably 3/4" to an inch in diameter.

I pulled the sole last year to clean everything under it. I found a clog between the bilge forward of the mast step, and the bilge aft of it. It took me two days blindly running coat hangers, BBQ skewers, plastic tubing, wooden dowels, and jet blasts from a garden hose through that one hidden section under the mast, but I finally got it to drain consistently. I didn't even know this was a problem until I started hosing and scrubbing, and noticed the bow section would not drain.

Good luck!
 
Top