Promoting products

[NateHanson]

The recent thread about poli-glow got me to wondering what the policy is around here about vendors promoting their products.

I don't doubt that the member selling this believes in the product, but the thread is certainly more "sales pitch" than "helpful advice to fellow boaters". If this sort of thing is allowed, isn't it possible that other vendors will start spamming the board with their own promotions?

I help moderate a different bulletin board, and controlling spam and self-interested promotion is a constant issue for us. We need to keep very tight controls over how products are promoted, or else the sales pitches really get thick and start to detract from the helpful content of the site.

I should be clear that I don't have anything against the user selling poli-glow, and I certainly don't bring up this subject to get in his way. It's a general issue about keeping the discussion on this site as useful and objective as it has always been.

Thanks, Nate

[bigtyme805]

Nate you are somewhat right, I was just trying to help our members know that there is a product that can help their hulls.

I personally never thought anything like this really worked.

[Sean Engle]

The recent thread about poli-glow


Are you volunteering to be a moderator, Nate?? :egrin: Careful there...

Seriously - if you (or anyone else) see commercial postings happening, please contact me or any of the moderators - any of us will be happy to get out the club and uh, well....nevermind...

Happy Holidays! :xmas_sant

//sse

[NateHanson]

Are you volunteering to be a moderator, Nate?? :egrin: Careful there...

errr . . . nevermind :D

[noproblemo2]

Sorry, but I tend to agree with Nate on this one... Maybe a category for promoting ones beliefs or ??? of products is in line for such postings??:egrin:

[Sean Engle]

Sorry, but I tend to agree with Nate on this one... Maybe a category for promoting ones beliefs or ??? of products is in line for such postings??:egrin:
You mean like a forum for people to tout products they think are good? Hummmmm.... You think *users* would be interested in such a thing?

Anyone else think this is a good idea (NON-vendors, I mean)?

//sse

[Mindscape]

In general we have not had vendors promoting products and I don't think this is the place for it. If someone uses a product and likes it that's fine, many of us have mentioned specific products in our posts that we have had good luck with. I don't think Don was only trying to promote his product, he was relaying information in something that he believes in and has personal experience with. But I don't think this is the place for sales pitches, it's the place for information sharing.
This puts folks like Don in a little bit of tough spot, we certainly welcome their input and experience, but would prefer that they keep the sales pitches back channel or off board.
It's also important that we know when people represent certain products so that we have that piece of information when evaluating responses. I think that Guy always does a good job of walking this line, he represents some different products and services, but offers his insight without pushing his products.
My 2 $.02, which is about all this is worth.

[noproblemo2]

many of us have mentioned specific products in our posts that we have had good luck with. relaying information in something that he believes in and has personal experience with.

Information sharing "it's the place for information sharing" & sales spiels can be helpful, as well as one in the same, even when one represents "different products and services", I also agree that it is "important that we know when people represent certain products so that we have that piece of information when evaluating responses. All in all such information when presented properly can be well incorporated into our information posted here.

[Rob Hessenius]

I don't see Don's post to be that much of a big deal. The way I see it was that he found a product that really impressed him. He was just letting other people, with most likely the same problem as he had a solution. In the same thread Tim R names numerous products. We frequently use name brands in almost every thread. I know I am guilty.
Its not like this thread was started because Don had financial interest in this company. I am happy to hear about products that people have had success with.
I am one that tends to read most all the posts. I even read the stuff on the "bigger plastic", even though I only have a 25'. I don't do this only because I live in the "frozen tundra" or I'm bored and still unemployed, really its because I like to learn. I can't begin to tell you how many ideas that I have gotten from reading threads about other types of boats than mine.
If a new forum topic is created for users to tell their success and failures on products. I'm all for it! Rob Hessenius

[bigtyme805]

I think Rob hit the nail on the head, knowing if a product works is the key to losing money or making your boat look nice without going through challenges of wasting money and time. I decided to start selling it because I believe in it and very few boat owners in my community knew a product like this even worked. I gave 2 men jobs because the boating community needed work on their hulls and this product worked for me.

I wished I owned the company but I don't and have no financial interest just an honest days pay.

A member of the forum and I spoke yesterday, totally caught me off guard when he said he thought few of the members of this forum were oblivious to the real world. His experience was he bought 4 Port Windows from a bunk boat manufacturer from a guy selling them on ebay and he let the thread know how to get them, he said many were critical and questioned why he wouldn't just re-bed instead of replacing.

I will go on to say that these windows were of higher quality by far than the ones Ericson made and fit almost exactly. Not only that no one knew that he was a manufacturer of metals and could have made a million of the old Ericson port windows. He said to me, "why on earth would I go through the time, money and effort to construct these windows when I found a better product than Ericson ever made and below wholesale price and fit exactly in the same hole and even opened." He went on to say once aluminum starts to pit it is better to just replace them instead of spending countless hours trying to get it just right. He has a serious point.

I would be up for a product page only because when I need something I always turn to Ericson first.

Catalina has their forum site where you can buy products for their boats. There is a reason they have it and have been in business for countless years and not bankrupt like many of the boat manufactures of the modern era.

Example:

Where to get water pumps, mufflers, port windows, 12v light covers, canvas, ericson logos, sails, cleaning products and with reviews from the members who have used these products and with what success.

Listed with names and phone numbers and website info. It saves many of us time who don't have much time.

I am quite sure most of the members would appreciate something like this.

[Meanolddad]

I agree completely with Don. There is currently a thread on finding ETA circut breakers for the 80's DC panels. I am glad that they seem to be doing the leg work since I did break one recently and have not had the time to find a replacement. A list of sources would be a great idea.
Greg

[sleather]

I belong to another site for OLD Shamrock inboards and we have EXACTLY the same situation over there! Feel free to "check-it-out".
http://www.fishtheclassic.net/forums/

Any attempt to "spam" gets jumped on whenever IT happens(rarely). They do have 2 catagories that relate to OEM suppliers and other "approved" providers.
Note: you may have to "update" the "Display Options"(year) to get results

Friends of FishtheClassic, Admin approved(added by same) vendors that are fellow enthusiasts w/ something to sell. They are not allowed to "post" their product/sevice in General Forums!

OEM suppliers, links to original or replacement parts.

It's a "fine-line" but it can be done as Rob and Don have mentioned, AND it would simplify a "search" for a specific product! Just MY $.02!

[NateHanson]

I don't see Don's post to be that much of a big deal. The way I see it was that he found a product that really impressed him. He was just letting other people, with most likely the same problem as he had a solution. In the same thread Tim R names numerous products. We frequently use name brands in almost every thread. I know I am guilty.
Its not like this thread was started because Don had financial interest in this company.
Sorry, but maybe we read the thread differently. I think the thread clearly WAS started because Don has a financial interest in this company. Mentioning products you've had experience with is certainly not a problem, and is useful. But that thread just struck me as a drawn out sales pitch. Certainly replying to a thread because you know of or even sell a product that you think could help might be allowed, but personally I don't think vendors starting their own threads to sell their product is beneficial to the great content on this site. Hearing from someone who is selling a product that they think it's great just isn't as useful a piece of information as hearing it from disinterested customers. That's not to besmirch Don's character or say he doesn't truly believe his product works, but honestly, when you're making money from selling a product its a lot easier to see it's advantages.

[HGSail]

Is this to say that if you own an Ericson and you just happen to be a Shipwright you can't mention it on this site because you might make a couple of bucks? The way I look at it is, Don is an Ericson Owner first and businessman second. He has up until now (as far as I know) never promoted a product.

P.S. Come March when I pull My boat for a new bottom, I will be buying some of Don's product.

Pat
E29
'73
#224
Holy Guacamole

[NateHanson]

Is this to say that if you own an Ericson and you just happen to be a Shipwright you can't mention it on this site because you might make a couple of bucks?

That's not the way I would do it if I were making policy. But perhaps I wouldn't allow vendors to start their own threads promoting their product. If a member is looking for a solution, by all means reply in their thread, tell them about your product, maybe leave your link off the public site if the moderators prefer it that way. Vendors have experience worth sharing, but it should be treated differently than consumer experience, or else this place could really end up with a lot of promotional threads, and that would detract from a very good site.

[Sean Engle]

So, then...

A forum where you talk about products - and vendors can come and mention their products - and provide a link off site to their products?

Or - a forum where only owners can talk about products, etc. How do we keep vendors (versus owners) from registering and saying they're something they're not?

What if the forum had specific rules, that said if you're a vendor, you can post a thread (read: one thread) about your product, and provide a link off site for it - but other than that, the forum is for owners to talk about "..this product works, that one does not..." blah, blah, blah?

//sse

[Tom Metzger]

There are plenty of places for vendors to advertise without them using this site. Once they are let in there is no way to keep them out of the other forums. I like to know that people posting have no financial interest in what they are advocating.

It would seem to me that most of the items someone would want to brag about would fit very well into the Maintenance & Mechanical forum, and can be easily found using the search function. I don't really see a need for a separate forum.

[bigtyme805]

I would add a folder like the one you have for Maintenance, For Sale, etc,...

It could read like products/engine parts or some thing like that.

Then when you open the folder it list where to get a waterpump for Universal M18 and the price and website and phone number. Like an address book system.

I spent 2 hours one night looking for 12v light covers for my original lights. TOTAL waste of time, found nothing. Someone on the forum recommended RV supply store and that took another hour and still didn't find.

If we had an address book system I could have looked and found something with a URL and/or a phone number.

That way when someone comes across something that is good they can post. Maybe have a star system rating.

Qualifications would be up to board.

Just a thought and I am sure many hundreds of members would appreciate this service.

[bigtyme805]

I just read Nate's reply and I don't understand his stance. If it was a problem posting products that work and having some financial gain I don't see where the problem is. Plus I am an Ericson owner and have been for a long time.

Whoever read my profile, I sell Pharmaceuticals first then I have other things going even an Ericson Sailing Charter Business. I hate the pharmacy business but I have to make a living and that crap is totally marked up.

I was so pumped by the Poli Glow and the fact that something finally worked that made claims so amazing I had to get involved. Don't make much money but I have the lowest price in the world. Why? Because I get tired of getting shit on by West Marine and Boaters World. The mark-up for their stuff is nuts.

If I can help a boater better his boat, believe me I will. Everybody thinks we have unlimited pocket books, boat yards, marinas, marine stores, etc,..

It's like the guy trying to make a buck selling ericson logo's, I think that is great. Hats, T-Shirts, Coffee Mugs, more power to them. Just wish we had better access to getting this stuff instead of worrying about power sellers getting on our site. Highly doubt that would happen. Even if they did maybe Sean could have a page for it and charge these big boys and make some money for all the hard work he does.

With Ericson not being produced anymore owners are slowly dwindling and the market for sellers decrease.

[Tom Metzger]

The obvious reason to not allow commercial messages is that we would have no idea whether the product is good and the person really likes it, or if it is just advertising BS.

Case in point is Poli Glow. You think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but half the people in my marina that have tried it have either removed it or wished they had never heard of it. You say you like it, but why should I believe you if I know you sell it? By searching for poli glow on the site we can get honest opinions from people we trust.

BTW, the first opinion I came on here was negative. :rolleyes: Someone else liked it. But at least neither had a financial interest to flavor his opinion.

YMMV

[NateHanson]

How do we keep vendors (versus owners) from registering and saying they're something they're not?

You'll never prevent that, unfortunately. If you provide a big enough audience someone is going to try to sell something to that audience. The forum I moderate is one of the larger regional Reef Aquaria forums, and we've got about 400 different people viewing the site each day. That's a big draw for vendors, and we spend a lot of time weeding out shills and reigning in salespeople. Perhaps the Ericson site isn't perceived as such a big potential market, or perhaps it's just a matter of time. I don't know.

The way we handle it over there is that vendors who want access to our members can pay to become sponsors. Then there are specific places on our site where they can promote their products. Vendors who aren't sponsors can participate on the forum, as any other member, but they cannot promote their products.

Occasionally we do spot users who are pretending to be something that they're not, and it's pretty easy to recognize, generally. Shills like that don't put a ton of effort into creating a persona, so it's typically a new member making a clumsy attempt at pretending that they were really blown away by this great product that they have absolutely no interest in promoting. :rolleyes: We've even had people create 2 false accounts, and then strike up a conversation with themselves about this really outstanding company that they've found.


What if the forum had specific rules, that said if you're a vendor, you can post a thread (read: one thread) about your product, and provide a link off site for it - but other than that, the forum is for owners to talk about "..this product works, that one does not..." blah, blah, blah?


//sse
That sounds like a good compromise, and a fairly simple approach.

I don't mean to force a solution to a problem that others don't perceive though. Perhaps this isn't an issue on this forum. The only case I'm aware of is this one which is by a real member, not just some salesperson spamming forums, so maybe it's not that big of a deal. My experience is that advertising can really get out of hand if not controlled on a forum, but certainly this forum isn't at that point right now.

[Shadowfax]

I’ve been following this thread and feel that a number of very good points have been made. I can see where someone that really likes a product or service would want to relay that experience to the list. I’ve done that myself a couple of times. I’ve also related my experiences with products or services I didn’t like, as have others. The concern seems to be that when a list member has a financial interest in a product or service, no matter how small, that he or she might not be as objective as someone without a financial interest might. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that statement.

Having said that, a separate page where products or services could be listed, thus avoiding a search of the archives, could be beneficial. The listing would be somewhat controlled by the moderators not placing obviously outrageous listings, but members would know going to the page that someone with a finical interest might have made the listing. This could be tempered by allowing list members to comment positively or negatively on their experiences with this product or service. It would not be long before a product or service offered to the list as the greatest invention since ice cubes, but turned out to be nothing but cold water, would actually serve as bad publicity and thus have the opposite effect then that intended by the biased listing.

For instance: Lets say that John Bilge, of Bilge Pumps R Us has been secretly lurking on this site the last five years and see an opportunity to sell his bilge pumps to the list as the best bilge pump ever made because of his soon to be patented widget that allows water to be removed at the fastest rate, with less power, then any other bilge pump. He posts to the page his product with all his contact information, models, benefits of his pumps to mankind etc, etc. Someone looking for a new bilge pump could go to this page, knowing that the listing of Bilge Pumps R Us might have been made by someone with an interest, other then informational, and look up bilge pumps, read of the benefits to mankind and how to get one. Now let’s say I’ve had a very bad, or good, experience with these pumps. I could leave a comment to that effect, as would others and we would soon have a pretty good idea about how good a bilge pump was being made here. I could also make my own listing of say a canvas shop I had a good experience with, but have no financial interest. The archives would still be there for anyone wanting to do a little research and get more detail

The idea of getting into Sponsors, which to me, would be nothing but an advertisement and revenue generator for the list, and I’d treat it as such. I might be more inclined to use a sponsor's product, if I liked it, because they supported the list, but that would be about it.

Hope this wasn’t too long

[Loren Beach]

Before further comment on the issue of members selling something to others on this site, consider this completely OK flag-selling thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=5652&referrerid=28

Let's not be too hasty to enact additional "rules" that someone would then have to enforce. Absent the return (Shudder!) of "Sarah@Plasteak", which was dealt with on this site's software by our Friendly Administrator, and by a phone call to the owners of the company by the Senior Moderator, I just do not see the object of this particular thread as a comparable threat to our tranquility.

If the efforts of Sarah were at one end of the "commercial" scale, then Glyn's cargo shifting would seem to be completely at the other "non commercial" and praise-worthy end of the scale. :)
The rest of us, whether making and selling wood hatches, wood cockpit tables, hats, shirts, or personal collections of boat gear, or reselling some bottles of pollishing & waxing products -- would all seem to fall in a vast gray middle area. :rolleyes:

As long as it is owners providing services and sometimes even "goods" to other owners, let's just deal with questions on a case-by-case basis.

Thanks for listening.
Loren

[Mindscape]

I with Loren on this. As I've thought about this and read the additional posts I feel we should lean towards more info than less. We've done well in the past handling this issue, the few times it has presented itself.
I don't think Don was off base in his post, it was done in a manner that let us know his enthusiasm for the product and his relationship to it.
The less rules the better, we're a community of E owners just trying to find answers and help each other out.

[Sean Engle]

Yeah, and I don't think it will be that much of an issue in the future as we'll have the 'Ericson Gear' pages on v.2 of the site - which will direct people toward the typical stuff - hats, tee shirts, etc... If enough people like something has to offer (like Morgan's 'Ericson Bottle Bottoms') the they can list it there, and deal with the traffic, etc...

//sse