Rudder Modification for an E38?

[Tracey Filippini]

I have a E-38 and have had problems steering the boat down wind or on a broad reach in wind speeds of 20 knots or more. The boat is very hard to control and demands constant correction to the tendancy of rounding up.

I talked to one E-38 owner that mentioned he has problems also, and that he had heard that the the rudder needed to be modified by adding approximately 1 foot.

Has anyone experienced these problems and or made any modifications to overcome them??


Tracey

[u079721]

I haven't really noticed that on my shoal draft 1989 E-38. Is yours an earlier model? Deep draft?

My rudder is just a few inches less draft than my keel, so adding a foot to it would cause me to ground out first on the rudder - NOT a pleasant thought!

[Loren Beach]

I see the problem(s) from a slightly different angle (of heel)...
You mention roundups while reaching in heavy air and also running.

When going downwind, you may have to change down sail area a bit sooner. Your design, like a jillion others from that era, has an IOR-influenced stern section. It likes to roll downwind if driven hard. Since it was never mean't to plane or be stable in surfing mode, you may have to slow down a bit. For comparison, look at the stern section of a J boat, or an Express or Olson. Notice that the stern is flatter and wider. Those boats were built to surf off the wind.

As to reaching, you are basically getting turned to weather by the hull shape as the boat heels. When reaching in big winds, reef sooner, let the main out more, generally reduce area to keep her on her feet. And, flatten the main.
If you are reaching with a full main or with the first reef, you may find that the main is too full -- maybe stretched to much by years and usage.

At 20 knots plus, I would expect to see one good reef in the main, and get that foot pulled out tight...
For a headsail I would want no more than a 110%. Note that if you reduce the headsail by rolling it in, the shape is not optimal, and will contribute to more heeling.
I have a modern 135 reefable genny, and in these conditions (rolled in 3 rolls) it is ok, but the shape is compromised some.

If you really want to change the rudder, do it right. Have the design work done by an NA before you have a new one fabbed up. Perhaps the existing ruddershaft has enough reserve strength for the extra load, but I would not quickly assume such...

I had a conversation about rudders with a local boatbuilder after I got our Olson 34; I had heard of someone putting a larger rudder on a couple of Olsons "for better control". The local builder, Steve Rander at Schooner Creek Boatworks, told me to save my money and learn to trim the sails to solve helm problems! This from the guy who routinely tiller-steers his ultralight 70 foot sloop to Hawaii and back. He often beats the wealthy pros, to boot!

Please Note: I am not casting dispersions on your helming. Really! But over the decades I have often found that the most boat speed on my boats a can be found by adjusting "the nut on the helm".
:)

Please let us know what you decide to do. This is interesting stuff. If anyone wants to see the eliptical rudder and keel on our Olson, I have some new pics I could post, FWIW.

Fair winds,

Loren
Olson 34 #8

[Martin King]

I would agree with Loren. Ericson's "ain't no downwind sleds".
I did extend the rudder on my old 39 after consulting the
NA to try to correct downwind oscillations and other bad
behaviors. The boat did behave somewhat better-particularly
under power in docking situations but I can't reccommend
this mod as a cure all. Old school IOR boats are typically
twitchy downwind when it pipes up. How you handle
the sails and helm are the biggest factors.

Martin

[Jeanne]

I was under the impression that over the years the rudder had been modified. I have a 1989 Ericson 38 and have had no problems with control. The boat does like to heel but that can be adjusted with trim.

[Duncan]

When I bought our E34 (1990) it had two headsails: 130% and a 145%. I furled them when it got above 25 knots of wind, but the shape was so bad that I usually ended up motorsailing with just the reefed main and no jib. A local sailmaker made me a 90% jib and a cruising spinnaker (gennaker). I got him to put two round black spots on the foot of the 90% jib, and I use them as first reef and maximum reef. The results have been spectacular. The rig balances more easily, I start reefing when I go over more than 15 degrees and I am keeping up close to hullspeed even in the worst blows.
I am fine in a following sea with regard to tracking and steering. If it is windy, 2O or more, I put up the 145% genoa with no main. I have sailed on a friends E28 plus, and if you have the wind aft and have not reefed it way down you slew around wildly.

[Captainpeter]

I have a 1984 E38 that I sail between Santa Barbara and Santa Cruz Island-lots of wind above 20kts. I have come to learn that the secret to enjoyable, comfortable sailing on all points of sail with my E38 is to reduce sail early (this took me several years of unstable, all over the ocean, sailing to figure out). So now, when the wind pipes up I often put a double reef in the main. When it comes up even more, I roll up the jib entirely and rig my removeable inner stay and hank on a small bullet proof jib (used to be a 100% jib for a Catalina 38). I have sailed comfortably and controllably with this set up in 30+ kts winds. It amazes me how docile the E38 becomes in lots of wind when you reduce sail appropriately. What's even more amazing to me is that the boat is still sailing really fast! Captain Peter

[cajmills]

I have an E37 and have been sailing and living aboard for eight years. It has been brought to my attention that the rudder has been re-dsigned as have other rudders from that era. An owner of a Ranger 37 re-designed his rudder, which is very similar to the E37, by extending it forward , down and back two inches. I know him to be very successful racing and he claims the handling improved incredibly with that modification. There has been an article on the same subject in Ocean navigator concerning the re-design and modification on a P 40 with very similar profiles and handling problems. In that case the rudder leading edge was straightened as was the trailing edge creating a more balanced and powerful shape. The owner described the differences as being very much worth the effort. The rudder for the E37 and no doubt the E38 Has been re-designed, I was hoping to find out by whom here in this forum. I plan on going offshore and consider the rudder modification as a priority. My boat sailed around the world as 'Egregious', which can be read about in the book Storm Passage by Web Chiles. Any improvement to rudder design that would ease the load on the Aries self steering system will be a huge improvement.

[Seth]

I know this is an old thread, but I was doing some surfing through the archives and saw this one..Jeanne's comment about not having any problems prompted me to clear up this issue.


Generally speaking, when we talk about these problems we are referring to a racing configuration-or nearly so. If the boat has a genoa, furled genoa and reefed main-of course there are no problems. The control problems most of us are talking about are downwind, big air, and spinnaker. In these conditions, and as Martin says, the 37,39,46 in particluar, but also the 32--2/35-2 and the newer 32,35,38 line all share a smallish rudder and a hull shape which is not ideal for heavy downwind sailing with a spinnaker.

They are similar to their counterparts of the era in that they are not alone in this respect, but many more modern boats-including the Olson/Ericson boats, have a wider, more powerful stern section with less "pinching" in the back end, and hence do not roll as badly when pressed downwind, and are more responsive and generally easier to steer under these conditions..

But for cruising, once the right sail combination has been set, any of these boats will steer adequately. For serious offshore cruising however, where the potential exists for prolonged running in very heavy air-even without a kite-boats of this vintage will still benefit from the rudder mods discussed.

"Good night, and good luck"

S

[evm]

OK so this got me thinking. The Previous owner of my E39 did change the rudder to an elliptical shape. I've not compaired the areas of the original rudder to the "new" one.

Does anyone have an original rudder specification (height width area etc) for an E39?

I do have photos of the "new" rudder that I can approximate the sizes of till I next get it out of the water.


Last time I came down the (Washington) coast I spent the night broad reaching in 20 to 25 kt winds. Boat speed was over 10 kts for more than 6 hours with peaks in the 12.5 kt region. Not really surfing but flying none the less.

THe boat was very well behaved and under control of the autopilot the whole way. Single reef main and 135% roller down at about 110%.

Very nice ride.

[Seth]

Foss Foam and/or Steve Brown (Finco Fab) have the Ericson rudder molds, and could likely tell you the oriiginal sizes, or of course, if anyone has the original drawings in their "boat book", the could scale it off and just read the numbers to you.

Both of those suppliers are in the Costa Mesa/Santa Ana area of SoCal.

Either way, if you do go the effort of a new one-by all means add some area-yes the shape can certainly be improved, and should be if you want to "step up", but a significant part of the improvement will come from a slightly deeper and overall larger blade down there. You will have better, more precise control, speed, and pointing ability.

As has been said before, if you are starting from scratch, get a good NA to draw it up for you (BK of course, and Alan Andrews draws some great stuff as well-he ois in Long Beach). I think Finco may already have something drawn up, which would save some of the design fee-but it may be a few years old-an improvement to be sure, but maybe not the latest thing.

Sounds like an awesome ride down the coast!

S

[evm]

The prior owner was a naval archatect and this was the rudder he came up with for my E39.

The boat tracks well and does not feel under ruddered. It does not back well but that could be for many reasons. Do any E39 back well?

As for the trip down the coast. What a ride.

[Seth]

Not sure about a 6' deep rudder-maybe yours was already modified..that is strange-unless you have the shoal keel?

In any case, this hull shape is simply not at its' best reaching/running in heavy air with a lot of sail. The trick(for cruising) is to get the sail off until it is manageable-and you can get it to balance just fine.

However, the rudder mods DO help this condition, and part of it is deeper, part of it is more cord, and a big part is how it touches the hull(at least for the older boats-which I think do not have skegs in front)-see my post with a quote from Alan Andrews on the work he did for "Cantata", a 38 which was raced extensively (and successfully-even when I was aboard!) in SoCal..
Cheers,

[footrope]

This is a good discussion, but I don't know what a standard E38 rudder looks like. Is this the standard rudder for an early E38? This is my boat - hull #20. I ask because the boat has been sailed offshore (up and down the west coast) and I have a receipt for a Foss Foam rudder in the paperwork from the previous owner.

Thanks,

[Chris Miller]

here's ours, hull #262. With the wing keel, we have the same issue as Steve... we'd run aground rudder first if we put too much more on...
Chris

[ted_reshetiloff]

FWIW my rudder looks like both of yours. I have the 6.5' deep keel 38 from 1989. Are you able to drop the rudder when on the hard with the wing keel? Looks like you would not be able to lower it enough. Pilot Project is that a deep keel version?

[Loren Beach]

Oh Good Golly, Now we have the Men of Ericson comparing their Rudders!
Time for the Olson to enter the boatyard locker room.
Check out this shapely beauty...
:rolleyes:

Loren
1988 Olson 34 Fresh Air

[Seth]

These 3 shots are so telling. The Pilot Project rudder sure looks deeper than the on the shoal draft/wing keel boat-I bet the rudder was shortened just for this reason-the original rudder WOULD hit first.

So, on boats with that keel, you would have a problem going with a deeper rudder-but this is probably the boat that needs it most.

I have never sailed any of the shoal draft boats in race mode (or much at all, to be honest)-so all of my control/handling comments have to do with the deep keel models.

It seems very clear that the shoal keel/short rudder would be much harder to handle when pressed hard (of course, this is a strictly cruising configuration so this should not matter-these owners have no reason to press the boats like a race boat might).

Finally, Loren's rudder looks like the rudders Alan did for the 38's I raced on-the top of the rudder is in contact with the hull(as close as it can be without rubbing), which reduces the end plate effect when the rudder is turned. On the "stock" boats, once you turn the rudder (which is hung under that "semi-skeg"), there is a large gap between the top of the rudder and the hull, which reduces steering effectiveness.

The modification removes that skeg-like thingy, and the whole thing looks a lot like Lorens rudder (I know it is a Schumacher/E 34!)-which yields much better controlability.

Thanks for these posts-they are a graphic explanation of what has been discussed here!!
Cheers,
S

[Chris Miller]

We put ours through as many of the paces as we can given our area and our crew availability... She's never seen more than about 4-5 ft seas with us on her, but I'd really be curious to drive a deeper rudder in a big blow.
I drove the Ben 50 on vacation this spring DDW with bigger waves and she acted like the big pig she was... but I'd be curious--- maybe I'll have to hook up with Ted :devil:
Chris

(who used to have boat envy- now has rudder envy... sheesh)

[footrope]

We do have our fragile egos. :)

Pilot Project's keel is the deep draft fin (6' 6"). It looks to me like Sequoia and Pilot Project have the same rudder. Could be an illusion. Maybe I'll print the photos and scale them.

We have noticed a little bit of a squirrelly tendency in about 20 knots and our little 3 foot Puget Sound swells, wing-on-wing with a full main and a poled out 155 jib. We've only been in those conditions a couple times. No real danger of broach or rounding up. We are not rigged for a spinnaker.

I see what you mean about losing the end-plate benefit as soon as the rudder gets much angle during turns. Even with the deep keel I would hesitate to extend the rudder downward, but extending the top to regain end-plate effect seems like a good idea if you need it.

Very interesting.

[Seth]

Both of those 38's certainly do have rudders of the same shape, and from my perch this week at a Trade Show in Detroit I can't say with certainty that the shoal keel boat's rudder is not as deep as the deep keel version's rudder-it just looks that way to me based on those photos, and some vague memory (a senior moment!).,

It would be easy enough to check with Foss Foam or even FincoFab (or BK for that matter).

If it IS not as deep-the combination of the shoal keel and shallow rudder would make things worse from a controllability point of view..the solution: shorten sail as needed until things are under control-and certainly there is a good sail combination for both configurations.

The deep keel and (assumed) deeper rudder will definitely make for a more controllable ride when sailing hard ddw with a lot of sail up!! Not much fun, but more controllable!

Good times, though!
Cheers from da Motor City!

S

[ted_reshetiloff]

Very interesting idea there losing the skeg and adding it to the rudder. I wonder how tough a job that would be? Guess you could still use the original rudder and would not have to build a new one, but just how much of an improvement it would be I don't know. Seems like a big project involving glass work and gel coat...

2 weeks ago the wife, 2.5 year old, 8 week old and I took a week long cruise down the bay. We had northerly breeze of 15kts or better each day and a few days of 20kts+. We have a new main from Quantum that has the maximum roach allowed by phrf. I also have a 145% RF genoa. I dont have a pole so rarely sail wing and wing. I found that the boat performed better with just the full main sailing DDW than with the main and jib or just the jib, easier to steer and just as fast. We had a few days with big seas 6-8' (big for Chesapeake) around the lower part of the bay. As long as the breeze was better than 15 I was able to make at least 7.5kts DDW with just the main. A question I have and its better for a new thread is about techniques for gybing in heavy air. I hate the crash of just gybing the helm and letting the boom fly over, but being short handed and having a mid boom sheeting it is tough to go any other way. Thoughts?

[footrope]

I printed the pictures and scaled the training edges of the two rudders (Chris Millers' and mine) and they are each about 4.2 times the distance from the top rail of their stern pulpit to the middle rail. (And ... the distance from the camera to the stern pulpit and the trailing edge of the rudder is pretty close, at the angles the pictures were taken.) The assumption I made was that the two boats have identical stern pulpits. That is a measurement we can compare without diving or pulling any boats out of the water.

As for chicken gybes, we have even used them on the race course (not my boat). One notable time was at a mark rounding, reversing course and going from a broad reach to a close reach. Kind of surprised the boat that was right behind us, whom I think had been warned because he didn't get mad at us and we were never close to a collision. I work the bow, so I don't hear the tactical conversations and we had doused the spinnaker already.

[Seth]

Thanks for the scientific approach to determining the sizes of the 2 rudders-and so they are the same...Still and all, this hull shape and rudder configuration is simply not the ideal setup for heavy air downwind sailing with a lot of sail. On the other hand, it IS conducive to good upwind performance (especially for a cruising boat), and overall light air performance. These are traditionally the weak points for cruisers, and a big part of what makes the E boats great. For the conditions we sail in the most, they are some of the best performing cruising boats ever built. And in the nasty stuff, just get the sail combo to the point where the boat tracks well enough-sure a light boat with a big kite, or even the Olson/Ericson 34 may surf past you in the big stuff, but if you really wanted to have a race boat that excels in thiose conditions, you would have bought something else.

Everything is a tradeoff. I DO know that the Andrews rudder WAS a tad deeper, and also the assembly was re-shaped to resemble the Olson type rudder-and good things resulted. Of course, the issue of the hull shape remained unchanged, so there was a big improvement, but the boat is still not at its' best in those conditions...

You all beat me to the tack-around/chicken gybe-but it is a safe, seaman-like maneuver, that will save you a lot of trouble.

If you do a conventional gybe, then once you get ddw, sheet the sail in as far as you can, turn the boat slightly, but keep it close to ddw. As previously mentioned, when you see the roach of the main want to come across, then ease the main out as quickly as you can, but in a controlled fashion. The trick here is in the steering. You have be 100% sure you don't inadvertently gybe back, and also that you don't head up too far on the new gybe until the sail is fully eased (or you will likely broach). Certainly takes some practice in big seas and breeze-and even if you can do this well, there comes a point when it is just safer to tack around instead. In the 93 Transpac we did this on Medicine Man(then an Andrews 56) as we came across the Molokai channel-We were flying across the channel with a kite up-averaging about 15-18 knots, we reached the layline for Diamond Head around midnight-it was blowing about 35 and the seas were ruinning about 20 feet. We had the best crew I have ever sailed with, and at the bowman's suggestion (can you blame him?) we pulled the kite down, tacked around, and re-set the kite and charged for the finish line. Needless to say, although the bowman asked for it, we ALL agreed right away that this was the right idea. We actually had to make 3 tries before we could get the boat up and around the eye of the wind without stopping in irons-the waves were so high that by the time we reached the top of one as we were sheeting in and heading up, we had run out of speed and slid backwards!!

3rd time we got it right, and off we went.

Chicken gybes ROCK!

Fair and gentle breezes,
S

[Richard Elliott]

Anyone interested in the internal structure of a 1989 E34 rudder? We had an unfortunate encounter with a rock in B.C.

[footrope]

Richard,

So that rudder is all "there?" The shaft has come through the side of the foam/glass outer fairing material? :mad:

I want to see the rock. I'll bet it looks worse, huh?

[Richard Elliott]

Only the rudder shaft was bent. It is 3" Dia. S.S. tubing. As shown, the rudder fiberglass and foam have been cut away to expose the shaft.

[Loren Beach]

The thread split is done. Please note the change and that the gybing material now has its own thread.
BTW, and kidding aside, the pictures of the different rudders are really helpful; it's so nice to have the capability to attach them. Thanks, Sean!
:)


Loren
(Awkwardly donning his apprentice wizard hat as a Moderator)

[Lynda Radke]

We also had performance issues with our original rudder and replaced it with an eliptical one from Foss Foam. It was based on a design for a Cal40.

[Roger Ware]

Lynda, I cant quite see from the photo, but I think you have a deep keel? As others have mentioned, the rudder on a wing/shoal E38 - like mine - is the same depth as the keel, so any lengthening would create implications for nasty and expensive groundings.

Cheers, Roger Ware, Kingston, ON

[Lynda Radke]

Roger,

We do have the deep keel. Our new rudder, even though it is longer than the original rudder, is still quite a bit shorter than the keel. The keel bulbs you see in the picture were added a couple of years ago to the original deep keel.

Lynda

[bbboat]

Does anyone have an original rudder specification (height width area etc) for an E39?

I just pulled the rudder off my '76 E39 - I'm sure that it's the original. If you like, I'll measure or trace a pattern off of it and send to you.

Both Bruce King and Martin have both told me the original rudder is on the small side for this size boat, especially by today's standards. That, plus the current condition of the original rudder (delaminated) and the apparent benefits that many on this site have said they got from a modified rudder led me to the decision to just go for the mod.

Here's a drawing that Foss Foam in CA faxed me of an E39 compared to a rudder mold for a Cal 40 that they have used in the past for the E39. Any thoughts?

[Loren Beach]

For the sake of historical reference, here is a view of the rudder and the interesting top of the blade on a Ron Holland Ericson E-33.
Loren in PDX