Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
When I saw this photo it just put a chill down my spine imagining if I might ever see a sight like this heading for my little boat.
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What If?
- Thread starter Jeff Asbury
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Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
Whale Sinks Yacht; Crew Rescued, Wednesday July 26, 2006
Whale Sinks Yacht; Crew Rescued
Dramatic search and rescue news from Hawaiian waters this week. Mureadritta's XL, an ILC 40 that had just completed the 2006 West Marine Pacific Cup (2040 miles, from San Francisco to Kaneohe Bay), started back for Los Angeles on July 22. About 450 miles due north of the Big Island, she inadvertently got between a mother and her calf when encountering a pod of orcas. At least, this is what the crew thinks must have happened, because Mureadritta's XL was rammed so badly forward of the starboard chainplate that she is now resting on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. Pity about that pretty boat, but the important thing is that all four crew were prepared with both safety equipment and training. They evacuated safely to the life raft and were picked up by a diverted cargo ship today. They should be in Honolulu at some point on Friday. Antony Barran, M XL's owner and whose father, Nick, was among the four crew rescued, summed things up perfectly over on Sailing Anarchy: "Boats are replaceable; people are not."
Wednesday July 26, 2006
http://sailing.about.com/b/a/215996.htm
Whale Sinks Yacht; Crew Rescued
Dramatic search and rescue news from Hawaiian waters this week. Mureadritta's XL, an ILC 40 that had just completed the 2006 West Marine Pacific Cup (2040 miles, from San Francisco to Kaneohe Bay), started back for Los Angeles on July 22. About 450 miles due north of the Big Island, she inadvertently got between a mother and her calf when encountering a pod of orcas. At least, this is what the crew thinks must have happened, because Mureadritta's XL was rammed so badly forward of the starboard chainplate that she is now resting on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. Pity about that pretty boat, but the important thing is that all four crew were prepared with both safety equipment and training. They evacuated safely to the life raft and were picked up by a diverted cargo ship today. They should be in Honolulu at some point on Friday. Antony Barran, M XL's owner and whose father, Nick, was among the four crew rescued, summed things up perfectly over on Sailing Anarchy: "Boats are replaceable; people are not."
Wednesday July 26, 2006
http://sailing.about.com/b/a/215996.htm
Geoff Johnson
Fellow Ericson Owner
That's nothing, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s21iWoOLvTE
(Unfortunately, it's not real)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s21iWoOLvTE
(Unfortunately, it's not real)
Last edited:
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Geoff, how do you know it's not real?
Frank.
Frank.
Jim Mobley
Member II
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, Jim. It's amazing that they can make it seem so real--hard to know what to believe these days!
Frank.
Frank.
Jason
Fellow Ericson Owner
I'm guessing that the hull on that boat was typical modern raceboat-thin and light. I'm also guessing if an Ericson was rammed whatever did it would have a bit of a headache and the boat would be substantially less damaged than that one.
RT
Jeff Asbury
Principal Partner
In 1971 killer whales sank the Cruising Sailboat LUCETTE
In 1971 killer whales sank the Cruising Sailboat LUCETTE. Two books have been written about it.
Survive the Savage Sea
http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog/marinerslib/survivesavage.html
The Last Voyage of the LUCETTE
http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog/disasteratsea/lucette.html
In 1971 killer whales sank the Cruising Sailboat LUCETTE. Two books have been written about it.
Survive the Savage Sea
http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog/marinerslib/survivesavage.html
The Last Voyage of the LUCETTE
http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog/disasteratsea/lucette.html
In their defense
It is true tat some race boats have thin skins, which can be subject to puncture type damage, but I would think again before assuming they are not strong..at least the good ones, anyway.
Keep in mind that race boats are designed to sail with rig loads that would frighten most cruisers. It is not uncommon on a 40-43 foot race boat to carry 7000 pounds on the backstay in breezy upwind conditions, and to do that and not turn into a banana, they need VERY strong structures. If a boat flexes or bends more than the littlest bit, the shape through the water is distorted, and performance is severely impacted. Not to mention sail shape changing with each wave impact, and other speed robbing effects.
In fact, race boats, if they are successful are VERY VERY strong so that they can maintain the designed shape while carrying massive rig loads, and bashing into big seas-all the while being pushed much harder than a cruiser would.
Some of the spectacular structural failures we have read about lately must be considered in the proper context:In these conditions, any cruiser would have long since backed off on the "gas pedal", reduced sail, maybe changed course to reduce wave impact, and made other adjustments to reduce loads on the boat, while these race boats were being pushed pedal to the metal when most of these occurred.
Of course, these failures represent design flaws, but in most cases, had these boats been on a delivery, or cruising, the failures would not have occurred, as they would have been loaded up so much.And yes-falures have occurred on some race boats in benign conditions-and these are the boats that really were under-engineered.
The point is that a succesful race boat must be strong in ways most cruisers never imagine, yet somehow manage to accomplish this without adding too much weight.
Also, an angry whale would probably do you in no matter what type of boat you are sailing on.:0305_alar
I know your comment was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I also know there is often the misconception out there that race boats by nature are inherently not as strong or safe, and I am just taking this opportunity to address and correct that.
Boats can fail structrally whether they are designed for racing or cruising-and both do-but the reason is not due to the inteneded use of the boat-generally it is either poor engineering or poor or faulty construction, and my feeling is that since race boats must be engineered with more attention to structural detail the good ones tend to be very strong indeed..I think
It is true tat some race boats have thin skins, which can be subject to puncture type damage, but I would think again before assuming they are not strong..at least the good ones, anyway.
Keep in mind that race boats are designed to sail with rig loads that would frighten most cruisers. It is not uncommon on a 40-43 foot race boat to carry 7000 pounds on the backstay in breezy upwind conditions, and to do that and not turn into a banana, they need VERY strong structures. If a boat flexes or bends more than the littlest bit, the shape through the water is distorted, and performance is severely impacted. Not to mention sail shape changing with each wave impact, and other speed robbing effects.
In fact, race boats, if they are successful are VERY VERY strong so that they can maintain the designed shape while carrying massive rig loads, and bashing into big seas-all the while being pushed much harder than a cruiser would.
Some of the spectacular structural failures we have read about lately must be considered in the proper context:In these conditions, any cruiser would have long since backed off on the "gas pedal", reduced sail, maybe changed course to reduce wave impact, and made other adjustments to reduce loads on the boat, while these race boats were being pushed pedal to the metal when most of these occurred.
Of course, these failures represent design flaws, but in most cases, had these boats been on a delivery, or cruising, the failures would not have occurred, as they would have been loaded up so much.And yes-falures have occurred on some race boats in benign conditions-and these are the boats that really were under-engineered.
The point is that a succesful race boat must be strong in ways most cruisers never imagine, yet somehow manage to accomplish this without adding too much weight.
Also, an angry whale would probably do you in no matter what type of boat you are sailing on.:0305_alar
I know your comment was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I also know there is often the misconception out there that race boats by nature are inherently not as strong or safe, and I am just taking this opportunity to address and correct that.
Boats can fail structrally whether they are designed for racing or cruising-and both do-but the reason is not due to the inteneded use of the boat-generally it is either poor engineering or poor or faulty construction, and my feeling is that since race boats must be engineered with more attention to structural detail the good ones tend to be very strong indeed..I think
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Seth, .....?
Seth,
I really value your ongoing expertise in your various replies, but want to ask you to work a bit harder on this one.
Keeping in mind what you wrote about the strength of racing boats (above), and our general agreement that Ericsons are a very well designed and built boat, but also that nothing is quite perfect, my question is:
Assuming normal maintenance and care, what would you consider the most likely potential areas of structural weakness in the Ericson boats in normal coastal cruising (ie. not offshore voyages)? I am aware of previous posts that mention scuppers being a bit small, storage a bit tight on some models, etc., but I'm not referring to these things; rather, I am interested in actual "weak link" information--ie. if one were to subject these boats to increasing stress, what would be most likely to go first, second, etc. While I am interested in this information for the Ericsons in general, if you have any information about this specific to the mid-80's E30+, that would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Frank.
Seth,
I really value your ongoing expertise in your various replies, but want to ask you to work a bit harder on this one.
Keeping in mind what you wrote about the strength of racing boats (above), and our general agreement that Ericsons are a very well designed and built boat, but also that nothing is quite perfect, my question is:
Assuming normal maintenance and care, what would you consider the most likely potential areas of structural weakness in the Ericson boats in normal coastal cruising (ie. not offshore voyages)? I am aware of previous posts that mention scuppers being a bit small, storage a bit tight on some models, etc., but I'm not referring to these things; rather, I am interested in actual "weak link" information--ie. if one were to subject these boats to increasing stress, what would be most likely to go first, second, etc. While I am interested in this information for the Ericsons in general, if you have any information about this specific to the mid-80's E30+, that would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Frank.
It is true tat some race boats have thin skins, which can be subject to puncture type damage, but I would think again before assuming they are not strong..at least the good ones, anyway.
Keep in mind that race boats are designed to sail with rig loads that would frighten most cruisers. It is not uncommon on a 40-43 foot race boat to carry 7000 pounds on the backstay in breezy upwind conditions, and to do that and not turn into a banana, they need VERY strong structures. If a boat flexes or bends more than the littlest bit, the shape through the water is distorted, and performance is severely impacted. Not to mention sail shape changing with each wave impact, and other speed robbing effects.
In fact, race boats, if they are successful are VERY VERY strong so that they can maintain the designed shape while carrying massive rig loads, and bashing into big seas-all the while being pushed much harder than a cruiser would.
Some of the spectacular structural failures we have read about lately must be considered in the proper context:In these conditions, any cruiser would have long since backed off on the "gas pedal", reduced sail, maybe changed course to reduce wave impact, and made other adjustments to reduce loads on the boat, while these race boats were being pushed pedal to the metal when most of these occurred.
Of course, these failures represent design flaws, but in most cases, had these boats been on a delivery, or cruising, the failures would not have occurred, as they would have been loaded up so much.And yes-falures have occurred on some race boats in benign conditions-and these are the boats that really were under-engineered.
The point is that a succesful race boat must be strong in ways most cruisers never imagine, yet somehow manage to accomplish this without adding too much weight.
Also, an angry whale would probably do you in no matter what type of boat you are sailing on.:0305_alar
I know your comment was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I also know there is often the misconception out there that race boats by nature are inherently not as strong or safe, and I am just taking this opportunity to address and correct that.
Boats can fail structrally whether they are designed for racing or cruising-and both do-but the reason is not due to the inteneded use of the boat-generally it is either poor engineering or poor or faulty construction, and my feeling is that since race boats must be engineered with more attention to structural detail the good ones tend to be very strong indeed..I think
While my comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek I will take issue with your comments about "strength". Strength is relative. Yes, raceboats are very strong to withstand rig loads, etc. that would frighten most of us. However there are different kinds of strength. A raceboat will be designed to withstand extreme loads in the expected/predicted loadpaths. Thats it. They will NOT be designed to withstand point loading from grounding, impacts, or the errant whale. I have some experience with this stuff as I have built a few racing hovercraft. They were wood and also composite. Extremely strong and stiff in some ways and fragile in others. My guess is that older well made cruising boats with the thick hulls common of th time would be better to ground with than the latest raceboat. RT
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
An additional consideration about race boats is that they will often try to take advantage of the latest technology, some of which may not have been tested enough in a wide range of conditions to know it's limits. Therefore what looked like a great idea, and relatively safe, could turn out to be a problem that only becomes apparent over a longer period of time, under varying conditions. But I guess that also contributes to the challenge of racing....
Frank.
Frank.
Of course
Rob,
We are on the same page completely-yes-there is "strength", and there is "strength". My point was really just to take issue with the (mis) conception that race boats by nature are somehow "weaker".. Although of course,there have been many engineering failures in all types of boat designs.
I am very aware that some of the "strongest" racing boats had almost no impact protection, so your point is also well taken.
In general, when comparing well designed and built examples of each type, the cruising boat will be a better choice for a grounding or whale strike-not much argument there..Fair enough?
Frank,
Well, I can't think of anything I would really consider a weakness in any of the TAFG/keel stepped E-boats-in the context you are referring to.
Even the other types of E boats are strong and well built, but some thought must be given to the deck stepped mast support-that does does make it a weak design.
You have a strong, well engineered and built boat-which some fairly simple mods has been proven a capable offshore cruiser.
Hope that helps!
S
Rob,
We are on the same page completely-yes-there is "strength", and there is "strength". My point was really just to take issue with the (mis) conception that race boats by nature are somehow "weaker".. Although of course,there have been many engineering failures in all types of boat designs.
I am very aware that some of the "strongest" racing boats had almost no impact protection, so your point is also well taken.
In general, when comparing well designed and built examples of each type, the cruising boat will be a better choice for a grounding or whale strike-not much argument there..Fair enough?
Frank,
Well, I can't think of anything I would really consider a weakness in any of the TAFG/keel stepped E-boats-in the context you are referring to.
Even the other types of E boats are strong and well built, but some thought must be given to the deck stepped mast support-that does does make it a weak design.
You have a strong, well engineered and built boat-which some fairly simple mods has been proven a capable offshore cruiser.
Hope that helps!
S
Seth,
Yes we are absolutely on the same page. I understand your point. What I am amazed at is the strength of carbon/kevlar composites. I have seen some products that were easily 10X stronger than a fiberglass product of the same dimensions. A hull built this way, with all contingencies engineered for, would be darn near indestructible. And likely darn near "unaffordable" too...
RT
Yes we are absolutely on the same page. I understand your point. What I am amazed at is the strength of carbon/kevlar composites. I have seen some products that were easily 10X stronger than a fiberglass product of the same dimensions. A hull built this way, with all contingencies engineered for, would be darn near indestructible. And likely darn near "unaffordable" too...
RT
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
While carbon/kevlar may be excellent in some applications, I have seen a carbon mast on a 23 foot boat crack, and require replacement, where an aluminum one would probably have been relatively undamaged. I'm glad our Ericsons are built as well as they are, and have aluminum masts!
Not to say carbon masts are bad, but reinforces some points from above.
Frank.
Not to say carbon masts are bad, but reinforces some points from above.
Frank.