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Bilge Pump(s)

GMaurer

Member II
I've read a lot lately about bilge pump configurations and recommendations for change.
On my 1988 E28 I have a manual/automatic shower drain electric pump in a shallow well with a float switch, and a hand-operated manual (cockpit actuated) and separate electric pump (manual only from the electrical panel) in the deeper bilge sump.
Therefore, there is no bilge pump on "standby" when I'm not in the boat.
Is an automatic bilge pump recommended?
Is it an add-on, or would it replace the electric in the main bilge sump?
Also, what is the recommendation with respect to the thru-hull valves when leaving the boat? There are three, and one I believe drains the cockpit so it would have to stay open? The other two are for the head and cold water intake for the engine.
Thanks
 

jwolfgra

Member II
I've got an older boat than yours ( a73 E29), but here's my bilge pump configuration.

I have a 500 GPH rule platinum which I leave on all the time. This pump checks for water, if non shuts down very quick, if water, pumps till dry. This is in the sump on my boat.

Mounted above the 500 GPH in the sump is a 3000 GPH rule. This is wired to a separate circuit and is never on. It's intended for a major flooding situation, i.e. (a thru hole failure)... It gives me some peace of mind.

I close all thru holes on my boat when I'm not there. Seems like a good safety factor and only takes a few minutes. I believe a significant number of recreational boats sink right at there slip from failed hoses on thru holes.

hope this helps.
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
You could probably get a good argument going over both of these issues.

On one hand I would recommend having an automatic bile pump rigged, as just about every "real" yacht has one. Get a float switch, or better yet a magnetic float sensor, and rig it to one of those "Auto-off-manual" switches with integral fueses you see in the catalogs. AND wire it directly to the batteries, so you still get power to the bilge pump when (not if) you forget and turn off the main breaker switch on the batteries.

Having said all that, there is the school of thought that all this is a bit futile, in that a really big leak will overpower both your pump and batterty in short order, and the boat will sink anyway. Still, I feel better having one installed.

As for the through-hulls, closing those EVERY time you leave the boat goes a long way towards not needing the bilge pump in the first place. You obviously can't close the cockpit drains, but I do suggest closing every other through-hull every time you leave the boat. It's downright scary to think that all that is keeping your boat afloat is the double hose clamps around the hose at the sink drain through-hull. As for the engine intake, I recommend hanging the engine key over the handle to the raw water intake so you never forget to open the value prior to motoring.

Most people don't seem to agree, and tend to leave seacocks open when they leave the boat. But again, I sure sleep better at home knowing all the seacocks are closed.
 

Ray Rhode

Member III
For some unexplained reason Ericson built their boats with only manually activated bilge pumps. I solved the "problem" by running a second fused power lead directly from the battery through a float switch to the hot side of the pump. Now I know that the pump will run whenever it is needed. I can also run it manually with the original switch. One draw back to this system is the fact that you will not know if a leak has developed unless you happen to be on board when the pump runs. A solution is to install a cycle counter in the float switch circuit.

On the subject of seacocks, I always close mine when I leave the boat. My cockpit (E35-III) has two sets of cockpit drains. One set drains through the transom and the other drains through a seacock under the galley sink. I partially close the one under the sink. The theory is that if the hose develops a leak the bilge pump will be able to keep up with a partial leak and the drains will still be able to help drain the cockpit. One other reason for closing the seacocks routinely is that they stay free and if they do get stuck you know about it and can make repairs before you really need to close it in an emergency.
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Ok - I'll admit it...

I don't close mine all the time - but do cycle them regularly to avoid what Ray is talking about - and I've replaced all but one of the hoses (and re-cut and clamped that), so I'm pretty comfortable with the quality of the hose, etc.

Also, my bilge has a regular float switch that stays in auto but can also be turned on/off at the panel when I want to clear out anything down there...

In other hose news, I do flush out my sanitation lines with fresh water each time I put her away - to prevent 'the smell' from infecting them - and in the shower I ripped out the float switch/sump pump config in exchange for a big impeller pump, directly plumbed to the shower drain, and switched by a momentary switch in the shower....works great! :)

//sse
 

Siltbird

Member I
I also go with Ray's theory and keep my cockpit drain seacocks partially closed. If you're going to leave the seacocks half closed, I would recommend exercising them often so the smaller opening doesn't get clogged with growth. I keep all the other ones closed when I'm away. I'm not really sure why cockpit scuppers need to drain below the waterline, but I'm not really sure why my 30+ needs 9 holes in the bottom either. So be it.

As for my bilge pump, the previous owner interfaced the ice box drain with the bilge pump line with a diverter valve so I can suck the ice box dry. Also, the shower sump is somehow tied into the bilge pump, but the valve is missing and I haven't figured out how to get it working. It's on the to do list.
 

jwolfgra

Member II
I might have been a little unclear in my previous description of my pump set up.

My small pump 50 GPH is powered all the time to take care of small leaks... It's not on a switch, it starts periodically, if there is no resistence on the impeller, it stops. This protects the battery.

The big pump 3000 GPH is to deal with problem if we're out on the boat. We once had the hose attaching the packing gland spin off. We got a lot of water really fast, more than the 50 could keep up with. The 3000 drained it very quickly, looked like a fire hose. This pump is wired separately and isn't on a float switch...

I think it's a pretty good system, and doesn't cost a heck of a lot of money.
 

Ray Rhode

Member III
Sean,

I know you have a 35 similar to mine and wonder if you have done anything about the tee fitting that connects the main bilge pump line and the shower sump line to the thru hull in the transom? I occasionally get some flow back from one or the other. Am thinking of adding another mushroom thru hull in the transom and separating the two lines.

On the subject of thru hulls and hose clamps let me say that I religiously double clamp all of mine but evertime I bust a couple of knuckles when removing one I wonder how in the world they can come off by themselves? I usually have to cut them off or pry them off. I can only figure that the clamps are overtightened and cut the hose or the clamp is placed off the end of the fitting and it cuts through the hose. Have you ever had a hose come off?

Ray
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
No, I've never had a hose come off - but then again, I've only had the boat two years, so... I've been replacing all my hose clamps with the 316 grade stainless type which are better in terms of the interface with the hose surface - and when using two, I reverse the sides the screw is on (to even out the pressure on the hose.

The only way I could see a hose clamp moving is if when it was applied, it was put on not fully on the fitting - that is, there is little or nothing inside the hose where it was applied. In cases like that, I could see the clamp (and possibly the hose itself) 'pulling' itself off the barb.

//sse
 

jwolfgra

Member II
Experience has turned me into a cautious soul. It is amazing what vibration over time can do. In my case, a double clamped hose, both clamps 316 stainless, vibrated lose over time. I'd been negligent in checking the clamps over a two year period, so there's a lesson learned. But, stuff happens, when your taking on a good bit of water (i.e., my packing gland hose which detatched), it's quite nice to have a high power pump. It's not so much to protect the boat when it's on dock, but to protect the family when out. Even if a 3k per hour pump can't fully keep up with a 2 inch breach (a thru hole that quit), I'm pretty sure it will keep me up all the way from the Golden gate back to my slip in Alameda. That assums enough fuel to run the engine and keep the battery charged. I've also got the tapered plugs, so I guess this is belt and suspenders, but the water never really get's warm where I live

regards
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
Having just come back from a week long trip, I have a couple of things to add to this thread. First, yet another Rule (Automatic 500) pump is biting the dust and it is not even a season old - when it turns on it squeals like a stuck pig (and there has never been any debris in my bilge). Second, I had a bit of a shock one evening on returning to the boat to find the head filled with sea water up to a couple of inches below the rim - the one time I did not religiously close the seacock before leaving the boat. It seems that if anything keeps the joker valve from closing tightly, water will back siphon. Unfortunately, the head on my 32-3 was designed without a siphon break and there is no way (I can think of) to add one above the waterline. Fortunately the toilet rim is slightly above the waterline, but on a starboard tack or at a rough mooring, the boat could have gone down.
 
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jwolfgra

Member II
Yikes, sounds like you had a very close miss with the head!

I've always had concern about the head, and when I replace mine, I made a modification which might be of interest.

As the water supply line to the head, I added a 30 gallon fresh water tank. The head is no longer connected to a thru hole, so there is one less valve to worry about or remember to close, also, no chance of a siphon. The other advantage is that the holding tank smells a lot better with out all the creepy crawly things from the bay going into the tank.

Of course, this limits your range, but we're stricktly weekend sailors, and the water holds out for a good month. When I need to pump the tank, I refill the water.

As a modification for extended cruising, a couple of valves and a Y fitting could be added to allow the use of sea water if the fresh water is exhausted.

To eliminate risk of contamination, I would have a completely isolated water system for the head, i.e., don't just tap off of the existing fresh water system.

regards everyone.
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
I am not positive, but I don't think the mechanics of the Raritan head will permit a siphon from the inlet side. I believe my siphon came from the the outlet through an incompletely closed joker valve. In any event, as someone on this list pointed out, it is possible to flush the head with fresh water simply by closing the inlet valve and using the head sink as a fresh water reservoir. This works because the head inlet and sink share a common thru hull.
 
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jwolfgra

Member II
Interesting.

The reason I suspected inlet side was from personal experience.
I always have my outlet thru hull shut, the head is plumbed to the holding tank via a y valve.

While sailing on Port take, healed with the head down, I came in and saw significant water flowing into the head. I was concerned and closed the inlet through hull, which stopped the flow. Not sure about the actual internal plumbing. The head this happened with was an old Raritan compact. I now have a raritan cricket.
 

jreddington

Member III
My '84 E-28 came with only the manual diaphragm pump in the cockpit.

I added a small electric bilge pump (I forget the brand) with an integral float switch. My bilge cavities are so small that fitting in both a pump and a separate switch would have been near impossible.

The pump has three leads, manual, automatic, and the neutral. I did not want to cut into the paneling on the side of my electrical panel so I used circuit breakers already there.

In my boat, on the back of the panel there is a copper strip running along the back of the breakers. This is the common "hot" connection to each breaker. I bent back and secured this strip to disconnect it from the bottom three breakers, Bilge, Stove, and Spare. On my boat, none of these breakers were used or connected to anything.

I then ran a wire from the common "hot" connection from battery 1 of the battery selector switch directly to the Stove breaker (with an in-line fuse to protect the circuit), and then a jumper to the Bilge breaker. While I was in there I also ran a jumper from one of the hot sides of the other breakers to a spare and used this breaker to power a new cigarette lighter type outlet.

I connected the automatic wire from the pump to the Stove breaker and the manual wire to the Bilge breaker, then connected the neutral to the common neutral bus.

This way, even when I turn the battery selector to Off these two breakers are powered from Battery #1. When I leave the boat I leave the Stove breaker closed so the pump operates on automatic while I'm away. When I get on the boat I press the Bilge breaker to pump out the usual accumulation. This is a lot easier than the old days when I had to pump the manual pump everytime I went out for a sail.

If the automatic pump ever has to run for an extended time while I'm away or the float switch gets stuck, it will drain down Battery #1 but I'll still have Battery #2 for starting (assuming she's not sitting on the bottom).

Words of caution. If you wire one of the leads directly to Battery #1 make sure you wire both to Battery #1. I thought about connecting the manual breaker to the common breaker bus but realized that if you do so you can make the bilge pump wires the only connection between Battery #1 and Battery #2. If the batteries have uneven charge and voltage, a lot of current can try and flow through these wires, blowing the fuse.

I haven't yet got around to making lables for these but will look for and engraver who can make those little black with white lettering things. Hopefully thin enough so I can just unscrew the ring on the outside, slip the lable under and screw back on. I hate cutting into or otherwise modifying panels like this.

Also, I periodically still pump out with the manual pump to make sure it is OK and to make shure flapper valves don't start sticking.

As far as sea cocks, I always close all of my religiously when I close up the boat (but not usually for just a shore excursion in the middle of a trip). I also periodically pour a little head lube in sinks and ice box drains with the valve closed and leave it there to keep the valves from sticking.
 

GMaurer

Member II
Bilge Pump

My '88 E28 is configured a little differently.
I have the manual pump in the cockpit, plus electric diaphragm pumps for both the shower sump and the bilge. The shower pump is manual/automatic with a float switch, and the bilge is strictly a manual. Both pump units are located below the starboard aft quarterberth.
I really don't know how I'd reconfigure this arrangement to have an automatic feature tied into the existing bilge pump, and you're right - there's just not a lot of room in the bilge for more hardware.
 

jreddington

Member III
Yeah, to add an automatic feature to your bilge pump you'd have to replace the pump with one with a built in float (or those ones that run every few minutes to "feel" for water). I'd run the wires back to your breaker panel and connect the manual to the breaker you're now using to manually run the pump. Then connect the automatic wire to another unused breaker.

Or set-up the wiring as I outlined, or fit an auto/manual switch.
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
BoatUS sells something called a Smart Pump Switch by SeeWater (BoatUS catalog p. 456 - $30). It's footprint is 1 1/2" square and it has no moving parts. I plan to install one this winter so that I can get away from the Rule type pump that constantly checks for water.
 

clohman

Member II
Head siphoning

I had the same "full head" experience described by Geoff and contacted Raritan. Aside from the obvious need for an anti-siphoning loop, they explained that the joker valve isn't intended to hold back water from the feed line. My new joker valve did this for a few months, then began to allow siphoning again. We now turn the feedline valve on, then off, each time we use the head.
 

Mike.Gritten

Member III
I thought that the joker valve was in the head outlet, not the inlet. :confused:

We live aboard our vessel and experienced this same "full head" issue. It appeared to me that the top of the bowl in the head is VERY close to being at the waterline of the boat and the problem was caused by the joker valve allowing sea water back into the toilet. We redid all the head plumbing and replaced the Raritan pump assembly with a new assembly. We added anti-siphon loops in both the inlet and outlet and redesigned the hose runs to and from the holding tank to incorporate a macerator pump to dump the tank contents where legal to do so. This made the hose runs quite long but now we feel safe. After a few months we noticed that sea water was again entering the toilet bowl, but was only filling the bowl about 1/2 full. We decided that the joker valve was again allowing the water caught in the long hose loops to run back into the toilet. We have solved this problem by the following method first described by Nigel Calder in his excellent book. We put a couple of gallons of white vinegar in the head and pumped it to fill the hoses, closed the seacocks and then let it sit overnight. After pumping it out the next day, the problem was gone - we could pump the water out and nothing would come back in. We now perform this operation once a month, every month, and have never had another problem.
 
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