ericson 26 circumnavatigation!

[brienmac]

i have just bought a 1967 ericson 26,and am in the process of an overhaul.i am going to circumnavigate in the old dog and wondered what improvements i should make.
the reason i chose this boat was ,that, with so much talk of other vessels that have made it,i thought it was time the e26 had a shot.
you may think this crazy..........but i have never even sailed a yacht in my local pond,never mind the ocean......
while i am busy taking sailing lessons i am also approaching various publishing houses,magazine editors and producers of sailing and diving gear,in regards to ......
a)writing for monthly publications within the dive,yacht and travel industries.
B)seeking sponsorship,either product or financial
c)selling the story to a publishing house

if anyone has any POSITIVE advice please feel free to share.

we have got the youngest and the oldest people to circumnavigate....now we have the least experienced.......

cheers,.

brien.;)

[Brent Wright]

I have been told that the early Ericson 26's handle very well in rough weather. I too own a 1967 Ericson 26, hull #64 and am new to sailing. I am looking forward to hearing about your progress, Keep us posted.

[Landlocked Capn]

Be prepared to puke...a boat that small, Ericson or not, is gonna be a rough ride. Learn your lessons well, or we'll be reading about your rescue, if you're lucky.

[Geoff Johnson]

As I recall, Tania Aebi's boat was a 26 foot Contessa and she had almost no sailing experience at the outset.

[Sean Engle]

Yeah, in fact, she made her first landfall (Bermuda) using an RDF because he had no idea how to navigate! Not the recommended way of doing things, but... :D

That said - there have also been big boats, well equipped, that have gone down because of accidents, bad timing or the incompetentance of their crew. :rolleyes:

I would tend to think that knowledge, preparation, and sound reasoning would serve you better than any hardware could. I would think if I were going to do it, I would start with a nice stout hull that could have the crap kicked out of it and still survive. That said - as much as I love Ericsons - I would probably go toward something more along the lines of a full keel, long keel or something that provided more stability and protection of the rudder. Spades have a tough time dealing with whacking stuff underwater (submerged containers, bales of pot, etc ;) ). Last thing you want is to lose your rudder in a storm...

//sse

[ken]

Hi Brien,

First of all, the best of luck to you. And by absorbing as much "knowledge" as you can before you set out, you may offset some of the lack of experience you speak of. Teddy Seymour circled the globe in 1986-87 with a 1966 Ericson Alberg 35. He had no experience either, but read his story and note his "beefing up" of that already "bullet proof" hull.

http://www.indigowaves.com/seymour

[Martin King]

The smartest thing you can do in terms of boat prep is a
close examination of the hull laminate with a moisture
meter. If not already done, a barrier coat should be applied
over a DRY laminate to arrest the osmosis and extend the
life of the hull. One of the best technical publications I have
found is put out by the Gougeon Bros. #002-650. This
covers gelcoat blistering, diagnosis, and repair procedures and
is available through most chandleries.

Martin

[Loren Beach]

The Crealock-designed E-26 is a good solid boat. You may have to do some upgrades and make up for decades of deferred maint. before you go... but that would be the same for any boat you acquire, newer or older, given the demands of blue water voyaging.
I remember reading an article, about 20 years ago, about a couple of young guys that beefed up an old style Islander 24 (flush decker model from the 60's) and took it to Hawaii from SoCal. They strengthened things like the chainplates and supporting structure and added a small hard dodger (plywood sides, as I dimly recall). They reported that the only "problem" with such a small boat was the number of bruises they accumulated from the interior...
:)
I would not be afraid to take our former Niagara 26 to Hawaii, with some upgrades for extended offshore use, but have no interest in going clear around the globe.
Have you considered doing the "great Pacific circle" rather than venturing further around the globe...... where death from political turmoil is a far greater risk than from the wrath of the sea??
I say that because we are all heading into an era where Americans may be increasingly targeted in more and more places in the world. (Up 'til now they only wanted our dollars!)
One inspiration for you might be Dr. Andrew Urbanczek (sp) who circumnavigated in '80 in an Ericson 30, with only his cat, Cardinal Virtue, for company.
Have you done some overnight coastal deliveries as crew? I have done a lot of these over the years -- good way to gain valuable experience.

Best,
Loren in Portland, OR

---------------------------------
A small boat and a suitcase full of money
beats a 40 footer tied to the... Bank.

[Geoff Johnson]

Originally posted by Martin King
The smartest thing you can do in terms of boat prep is a
close examination of the hull laminate with a moisture
meter. If not already done, a barrier coat should be applied
over a DRY laminate to arrest the osmosis and extend the
life of the hull. One of the best technical publications I have
found is put out by the Gougeon Bros. #002-650. This
covers gelcoat blistering, diagnosis, and repair procedures and
is available through most chandleries.

Martin

Are you suggesting that this should be done with every Ericson? My 1985 32-3 has shown no signs of blistering, and having read recently on the website of an apparently knowlegeable surveyor that if a boat does not have blistering problems after a decade or more, it almost certainly never will, I have not really considered putting a barrier coat on my boat.

[Martin King]

Geoff,
My reply was targeted to his vintage ericson (1967) and his
plans to go offshore with it. A close exam of the laminate with
a moisture meter will help asses the condition. If hydrolysis has
started in a polyester hull, it's strength has been compromised
and measures should be taken to arrest it. Keep in mind that hydrolysis can occur without the appearance of blisters.

Not all boats will suffer with blister formation and there are
many variables that determine this. There isn't room here
for a treatise on the subject which is why I referenced the
G.B. guide for any one who might be interested in getting
informed on the subject. As we now know, gelcoat and
polyester laminating resins are not waterproof, and will
allow water to permeate the laminate. An epoxy barrier coat
will stop this from occuring, however it must be applied over
a DRY laminate.

Recently we saw a vintage 70's E39 try to tear herself in two
after some rough weather crossing the Atlantic. There was
no evidence that the hull had been compromised until she
started taking on water, fortunately close enough to land!
This boat had no barrier coat as far as we could determine,
just plain old gelcoat, and I do mean old.

Both my dad and I own vintage Ericson's and have barrier coated
them. In my case, I plan on keeping this particular boat for
a long time and the trouble and expense for me was warranted.

Martin King

[Geoff Johnson]

Then it's a bit of a puzzle because a barrier coat is needed only if the hull is absorbing water and if it is absorbing water then by definition it cannot be dry enough to apply a barrier coat. It would seem that applying epoxy to a hull that is not "dry" would tend to seal in the moisture. I have read that once water gets into the laminate, it can never really be dried (something about the water molecules reacting with uncured resin to form molecules that are too large to get back throught the gelcoat). Then there is the problem of water in the interior of the boat, i.e. the bilge. So I'm pretty much at the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" stage. I suppose if I were going on a world cruise with the boat in the water for a year or two (instead of on the hard for six months of every year), or had a blister problem I would feel differently.

[Martin King]

Again, I would refer you to the tech manual I mentioned. This
details how to properly dry out a laminate. The boat must
sit out of the water for a minimum of 3 months or longer. In
my case, the boat sat out for over a year in La Paz, baking
in the Mexican sun. In my dad's case, the boat sat in a heated
building for about 6 months. In some cases, you must remove
the gelcoat and possibly some laminate before drying will
take place. The question isn't if your boat is absorbing water,
but how much and at what rate. Keep in mind that boats
built out of polyester have a useful lifespan, that the stuff
does not last forever. You may not be able to get it back
to totally dry, but you must pull down the moisture content
to an acceptable level which is where the moisture meter
readings over time are so helpful. Epoxy barrier coating
techniques have been developed to help stave off the
inevitable decline in the boats lifespan. Hydrolysis is insideous,
and may not be noticed until the boat is really stressed-like
getting knocked around in big seas a la Maverick, and then
before you know it, it's too late.

In your case, if the bottom is blister free and she's out
of the water 6 months a year, I wouldn't worry about it.
If you plan on keeping the boat, I would just monitor the
situation, perhaps have the yard do readings for you.

On a related note, a plug was drilled in Whitehawk a while
back. This was one of my dad's earliest big boats done in
wood/epoxy. She had been in the water year 'round for
over 18 years-much of it in the tropics. Guess what? The
wood was bone dry-it looked like it had been taken from
a brand new boat!

Martin

PS-to check out Whitehawk and other big boats go to
www.bkyd.com

[Seth]

Well, good luck. I would suggest 2 things to look very hard at:

1). Cockpit drains. Increase the diameter of the hoses so that the cockpit will drain as fast as possible-shoot for under 2 minutes.
It WILL get flooded, and the boat is very vulnerable when the cockpit is full of water. This 2 minute test is a requirement for offshore racing yachts.

2). Cabin hatch boards: Reinforce the framework with at least a 2-3" metal plate bolted through the frame to keep the hatchboard from blowing into the cabin when hit by a wave. You should also make a VERY heavy duty, 1 piece hatchboard for use in rough weather. You also need a way to lock the sliding hatch closed from the inside

[Geoff Johnson]

Martin, I ran across this article which confirms what you say:

http://www.zahnisers.com/repair/blister/blister1.htm


I was thinking of barrier coating my boat, but it seems that barrier coats on an old boat will aggravate any incipient problem. Moreover, I haven't found a way to remove bilge water.


BTW, I would love to know which model your father is sailing.

[Martin King]

Geoff,
There was a very interesting article this month in
Professional Boatbuilder Mag on using infrared
imaging to map areas of water entrapment in a
15 year old boats hull. Guided by the map, they were
able to target areas on the hull and pull a vacuum
where needed to dry it out and then repair the
core/laminate before barrier coating. Instead of a
total core replacement, they were able to provide
accurate, cost effective repairs which they verified
with core samples.

Regarding the article you referenced, it's not bad
but I disagree with some of it. Example: not
removing through hulls because of cost? If you are
doing a peel job like they reccommend and spending
thousands for the work, what's a few through hulls
in the big scheme? Also, epoxy is tricky to work with?
Au contraire, I have found epoxy very easy to work
with especially if you buy a machine that meters it out.
And what about the comment that you can only
expect to get 5 years out of such a barrier coat. I mentioned
>Whitehawk in an earlier post. She's 25 years old and
going strong! By the way, these yards all want to peel
it off, but I'm here to tell you that you will never get
that bottom fair like the day it came out of the mold. The
only way is to template the hull and it's a rare boat
(usually racers) that get this kind of treatment. One last
thought about epoxy. They just splashed Scheherezade.
She's a 150 foot cold molded ketch and guess what
resins were used to build her? West System baby
all the way! Check her out www.hodgdonyachts.com.

Regarding my dad's personal boat. He's had many. For a
while he had a very nice E 36 C. Right now he's trying
to finish up the Frog Princess-a 21 foot clipper bowed
cold molded beauty meant for day sailing and overnighting.
He has drawn a 30 foot version of her for Pocket Yachts.
I believe there is a link on the Pacific Seacraft web site
if you want to check it out or go to www.pocketyachts.com

Regards,
Martin

[Bob in Va]

Martin - I have enjoyed your input in the past and am following this particular discussion closely. Having done an extensive blister repair job some years ago on my non-Ericson, using West materials and info including the G Bros booklet, I'm somewhat familiar with what is involved and would echo your cautions that it is far better to stay ahead of the problem by drying out the boat and barrier-coating it than to find out later you have blisters. At the time I did my bottom job a buddy who had an E25 told me he didn't need to worry about his boat, as it was an Ericson, implying superior build quality would obviate the need for blister concern. A couple of years later, when his boat was pulled, it was riddled with blisters. I've heard of boats that were sailed in the Pacific on a single tack for several weeks that developed blisters above the waterline in that short time in the topside area that stayed wet. My question for you is this: was Ericson using the same basic materials and layup schedule as the others when the boats were produced? I believe my E23 is pretty stout, and its construction quality appears to me to be better than most mass produced boats of that period in that size range. But were the resins and other materials essentially identical to the competition at that time? I see frequent blistering in boats from the 70's that are left in the water, and have heard that much of it is caused by inferior resins used to cut costs when the oil embargo hit about '74. Does that apply to Ericson as well? I don't seem to see too many of them developing blisters, at least not as many as other manufacturers.

[Geoff Johnson]

I've heard of boats that were sailed in the Pacific on a single tack for several weeks that developed blisters above the waterline in that short time in the topside area that stayed wet.


Bob, I could be wrong, but I think that article had to do with blistering in Awlgrip, which does not like to be submerged.

As for the barrier coat, I am still confronted with two fairly strong arguments against it (for my boat). First, my boat is nearly 20 years old and therefore the fiberglass, by all accounts, must have some moisture in it. So unless this can be detected and removed, barrier coating at this stage may do more harm than good (there are accounts of barrier coating actually causing blisters because it traps the water). The second problem, which no one has addressed yet, is what to do about the bilge water, which on my boat is evitable because of mast leaking (an inaccessible cavity in front of the mast collects probably a gallon of water). Again, some "authorities" have suggested that water from inside the boat can cause blistering.

I don't have blisters now, probably because 1985 was a good year for Ericsons and because the boat is stored out of the water six months of the year. However, because of what happened to Maverick (apparently due to saturated GRP), I wouldn't want to take it offshore.

[escapade]

Geoff;
As Martin stated, the Gougeon Bros. publish probably the best information for the layman on osmotic blistering. Trust me when I say that I have had some experience with that. I have done a complete bottom job on a 1975 E27 because of crazing (the fine spiderweb like cracks that develope in gel coat). Used West System Epoxy for that project. Repaired a small area of blisters and did complete barrier coat on my 1980 E30+ using West System for filling & fairing and VC Tar for the barrier coat. And last but not least, did a complete bottom job on my present E34 using West System to fill & fair and Interlux 2001E for the barrier coat.
The 27 & 30 never had another problem as long as I have been aware of their respective locations, and the E34 came out of the water this fall w/o a single blister (thank the gods!!!).
Drying is the most important part of the process and as Martin stated the best thing for someone in your position would be to determine the a)is there any areas of high moisture in your lay-up b)open those "wet" areas up by grinding or peeling and let them dry out and c)barrier coat the entire bottom to stop further osmosis. Moisture meters won't tell you exactly how much moisture is present but will give you relative readings on the moisture that is there. I'm unaware of the infared scan but that sounds very interesting if you can locate someone to do it.
It is far better to catch this early rather than to wait or as I did buy a boat knowing that you need to do this. It wasn't bad when I was 32 but at 50 I found it really sucks to spend 2 or 3 weakends grinding the gel coat off the bottom. Applying the epoxy itself is not a big job. West System woks well but has a short pot life. VC Tar has a long pot life but is a real bear if you have to go back and do another repair. Interlux 2001 has a decent pot life, rolls on easily, and I am hopeing it works well for the long haul. First year results are very promising but time will tell. The "bottom" line is first you need to determine the moisture content of your laminate and then make a decision on a course of action. Good luck & sail fast Bud E34 "Escapade"

[Martin King]

I can't speak to what Ericson used for resin over the course
of decades but would suspect they used the same stuff
every other builder in Orange county used. More important
was the fact that they laid up by hand, had fairly thick
gelcoats, and decent QC. Even with this going for them
I have seen blistering in hulls from 1970 right up to 1989
and with so many factors in the equation of why a boat
develops them, it's hard to draw any definitive conclusions.

Regarding the infrared imaging, the boat in question
had a cored hull (be glad you don't) and I am curious
as to how well it works on solid layup. It is interesting
to note that this boat was peeled twice and still failed to
dry out. Only with the infrared mapping was it possible
to get a comprehensive picture of the condition.

Geoff-again I wouldn't be overly concerned with this
in light of the fact that your boat is out of the water
6 months a year. If you get serious about barrier
coating, the boat has to be dried out-either in
a heated building, or tarped off. In either case,
you would pull the stick and mask off the hole
and run a dehumidifier 24/7. Alternatively, you could
sail her to someplace warm and dry like Mexico and
leave her there for a year! Don't laugh, that's where
I found my boat.
Regards,
Martin

[Geoff Johnson]

Martin, you are right about being glad I don't have a cored hull. At my yard there was a Sweden 38 on which someone had installed another thruhull without removing the coring around the hole. The thruhull leaked and saturated 8 or 10 feet of the balsa coring. The repair was to strip off the outer fiberglass, cut grooves in the balsa every inch or so, apply heat lamps for a few weeks and then to refill with epoxy and reapply the outer fiberglass. I am sure it was very expensive.

BTW, those Pocket Yachts are very pretty boats . . . much like a Friendship sloop. Are they to be made of fiberglass or cold molded? Your father designs very graceful boats, unlike the current trend.


PS It seems that the subject of blisters/osmosis is like the Bible (or the law) you can find something to support any position. So here's a more heartening discussion of the problem:

http://www.marineaviationpro.com/yacht/blisters.html


The author seems to say that water saturation of fiberglass is not the problem since all fiberglass is porous, it's only when the water reacts with unreacted styrene to form a solvent do you get problems in the form of blisters and delamination. He also says that if you haven't had a problem by ten years, you probably won't in the future, a point made by David Pascoe on his web site. If the author is correct, then three conclusions follow, first that quality of layup and materials is the biggest determinant of future problems, second that passage of time is the best indicator of quality (next, I suppose to coring the hull) and third that a moisture meter is not going to tell you anything because all fiberglass allows water to pass through.

[Martin King]

Geoff,
The Frog Princess is a cold molded custom boat. The
larger stretch version will be a glass production boat.

Moisture meter readings are valuable during the dry
out prior to barrier coating. When done over time,
they indicate relative dryness such as above and
below the waterline for example. In my view,
water intrusion into a FRP laminate is a problem
and should be arrested to get maximum hull
lifespan.

To bring this discussion back to the original point-
I feel that all the boat prep in the world is
worthless if the global strength of the hull is
compromised enough to fail when encountering
loads found offshore, and the damn thing sinks
right out from under you. Wouldn't you agree?

Regards,
Martin

[Geoff Johnson]

Absolutely, but the point I am suggesting is that maybe water absoption by itself is not the culprit. Maybe you need the additional factor of poor layup/materials which give rise to the formation of solvents which lead to structural failure. I am sure its a question of degree, but otherwise you would expect to see all sailboats "fail". FWIW, Yachtworld lists 565 fiberglass sailboats built before 1970. I doubt that many of them were barrier coated.


According to Pascoe:

"No, the moisture meter isn't going to tell you whether a boat is likely to get blisters or not simply because most boat hulls are saturated with water. The reason why some blister and some don't is basically a matter of quality materials and good techniques. Even when saturated with water, quality hulls are far less prone to blistering.

If a hull is 5 years old or more and has no blisters whatever, there's about a 95% probability that it never will. If it has even one blister, the chances are very high that it will continue. The more blisters it has in inverse proportion to it's age, the more likely that the problem will worsen at a progressive rate. Here's why."

http://www.marinesurvey.com/yacht/blisters.htm



The other probelm, which hasn't been addressed, is what about the bilge water, which is going to penetrate the critical area around the turn of the bilge? Wouldn't an exterior barrier coat have the effect of keeping this moisture in the fiberglass when the boat is out of the water and otherwise drying out? For example, see this site:

http://marinesurvey.com/yacht/WetLaminate.htm

http://www.marinesurvey.com/yacht/BlisterRepairFail.htm

If I can get my hands on a moisture meter, maybe it would be worthwhile to check readings over the winter to see if there is a decrease (although they are apparently tricky to use).

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/moisturemeters.htm

[escapade]

Geoff;
You are correct in your observation that a moisture meter only gives you a realitive reading on the moisture content of your lay-up. As far as my experience goes I have found that some boats are prone to blister, but they ALL take on moisture. Martin's position, which I am in total support of is that weather you have visible blisters or not, moisture in the laminate is not a good thing. Jan Gougeon (West System Epoxys) stress to all of us here in Bay City, Mi. that a dry bilge is VERY important as well as drying the laminate before the barrier coat is applied.
That being said,the bottom line is you need to keep the outside water out, and the bilge's as dry as humanly posible. BTW I sail in fresh water (Great Lakes) and the boat is stored inside for the off season month's. This or a GOOD cover that keeps the water out of the bilge, I believe, is something often overlooked by boat owners. There are a lot of so called "expert opinions" on osmotic blistering but few backed up by actual testing and field experience. I have talked at length with the folks at Gougeon Bros. and also done quite a bit of research on my own and have found that the G.B. publication on osmosis is probably as concise a brief overview of the causes & repair methods as you will find anywhere. Weather or not you need to barrier coat your boat is obviously up to you, but before I did anything I would survey the hull w/moisture meter & sound it with a mallet to check for delamination. This will tell you exactly where you really are at, something that all the printed words cannot do. We can only speculate. At this point we have probably confused/scared quite a few people but a hull failure at sea scares me the most!
Sail fast Bud E34 "Escapade"

[Seth]

Many of my clients keep a dehumidifier going in the off-season, and actually keep it going during the sailing season-just plug it in when you tie up at the dock (unless you are on a can!).

There is a product which has a VERY low power draw and is gold colored rod which also keeps the interior dry..If anyone knows what these are really called I would like to know. The DO work, though!

Seth

[Geoff Johnson]

You're right, there's a lot of confusing an contradictory information so I'm going to take Martin's advice and not worry about it (particularly as I have no plans to go to sea in my boat). I guess the future lies with the epoxy boats like the Tartan and the C&C. As for the bilge, I have a very expensive custom cover, but the water enters from inside the mast (a subject discussed at length on the Ericson forums) so water in the bilge is just an immutable fact of life.

PS, to respond to Seth, I am on a mooring.

[Martin King]

Well, we don't want to freak anybody out-just
get out some good info on the subject. If this
subject is of interest, the GB booklet has very
good info backed up by research and comprehensive
testing. I highly recommend it if you want to stay
informed.

Martin

[Geoff Johnson]

Here's a link:

http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/epoxyworks/17/repairinggelcoat.html

[SingPilot]

It's called a "GoldenRod"

West used to carry them, I know a google search will get you to their site.

[Seth]

Thanks-it was on the tip of my tongue!

[Bob in Va]

While we are on the topic of blister repair, I'll offer a couple of observations for those who are considering doing their own blister repair:
1. Most authorities say to identify and mark blisters shortly after the boat is pulled - that they tend to shrink after the boat has been out of the water a while. I believe this is true for most blisters. However...
2. I have seen blisters that weren't obvious when the boat was pulled show up a week or more later. I think you need to check for and mark blisters several times to do a thorough job.
3. A real good way to see blisters is to look for them at night by shining a flashlight obliquely across the bottom - or even better, car headlights. They become very obvious using this method.
4. I once used a sandblaster to cut out the many blisters on my boat's hull. It worked, but was very time consuming and the sand didn't taste too good. A Dremel-type high speed cutter, carefully wielded, works better and much quicker.
5. Once the blister is cut out, you need to let the area dry as much as possible - just because you saw liquid come out doesn't mean it is completely dry.

[refugee]

While circumnavigating conjures up pleasant images of exotic places and spirited adventure, I for one cannot offer you any advice but the obvious: Don't do it in this boat, don't do it without at least some offshore experience in a force 6 or better blow, don't do it unless you're willing to feed yourself to the fishes.

Sorry if this sounds negative. I know you're looking for positive advice; what could be more positive than saving your life?

If you want to circumnavigate, I and others applaud that idea. But just like you wouldn't go ice climbing in tennis shoes, you shouldn't take on the briny deep without doing what you logically can to survive. This boat is technically capable of circumnavigating, but it'll need the weather gods to smile continuously. What do you think the chances of that are, on a trip around the globe? Hell, that doesn't even happen to me during a 2-hour race!

So, positive advice: 1. Get an offshore capable boat. You're going to live on it for years. If there is a sailing community in your area, talk to people who have offshore experience about what sort of boat you'll need. 2. Get experience offshore. Crew, to start, on a few offshore races or cruises. 3. With this experience fresh in your mind, equip your properly capable boat to suit your needs. 4. Take your boat for a week's test drive offshore to see what you forgot or what needs changing. 5. Don't expect to do this cheap. 6. And finally, if you insist on going in this boat, please DO NOT talk anyone else into going with you.

[Seth]

Brutal, but true. Refugee said what most of us were thinking: Wrong boat, wrong person. This is not to say you absolutely can't do it, but the boat would require massive upgrades-which would cost a lot more than buying a more suitable boat. That is point one. Point two is also true: Combining a marginal boat with an inexperienced sailor is an unhealthy combination.

If you really want this adventure, hookup with someone to share the experience with and go partners on a bigger, more suitable boat.

I would bet many of us who did not come out and say all this were thinking that the most likely scenario is you would get started, get maybe to the West Indies, have a "come to jesus" moment, stay there and enjoy the Islands, or realize the folly and come home.

Maybe your best bet is to start small- plan a Bahama trip or a trip down the coast of Mexico (depending on what coast you are on). Ease into it and see if it really for you. Being offshore in a small boat for weeks on end is not for everyone-

Good luck!

[Loren Beach]

Speaking of seaworthyness related to boat size...
Note that the Albin Vega 27 or Pacific Seacraft 20, 25, or 27, and Haida 26 are in this size range, as is the famous Contessa 26.
All have made notable (and multiple) ocean crossings.
I would agree that most production boats would need beefing up and that this would be very labor-intensive, and perhaps cost-prohibitive.
:rolleyes:
Hey, how many of you remember the two young guys that took an Islander 24 from California to HI in the 70's? The write up told of their strengthening the chainplates and adding a plywood dodger. They had no problems, but did report that they accumulated a lot of bruises!

The Mk1 E-26 appears to be a tough little pocket cruiser, but perhaps not a top choice for a circumnavigation.
OTOH, I have only coastal passages for experience.. so I am not very qualified to comment!
:)

Best,
Loren in PDX

ps: I did transit the Washington coast (48 hours) in my old Niagara 26... in good weather...

[Martin King]

Size matters,

Loren,

We know a guy who kayaked from San Diego to
Hawaii! Granted, it was a big kayak but still.....

What would be your minimum boat length for offshore
passages?


Martin

[Seth]

Loren makes good points as usual, and the I 24 trip he refers to was a downwind leg-

Of course many small boats have made successful passages-some even did it with very inexperienced crew-that does make it a good idea.

I like to make the comparisons to the old Colin Archer boats-which led to the Westsail 32-how so many people thought because Slocum sailed a similar design it must be a good seaworthy boat-NOT!
\
I think Slocum made it IN SPITE of the boat-not because of it. A slow boat that won't go to weather is not my idea of "seaworthy". Yes, people has made big passages-so what?

So, just because little boats have made the trip, there are better and safer ways to do it.

My 2 cents for today! Had a rough week...

[Jim Payton]

OK here's my opinion, for what its worth. The Bahaha that leaves from San Diego to Cabo usually around Holoween each year has a variety of boats. According to "Lattitude 38" the recomended minimum size boat is 30 feet. Sounds good to me. I just looked at an article in "Lattitude" this month that lists all the small boats that have made the sail in the Bahaha over the past 11 years. In the early years there were a number of 26 and 27 foot boats. Last year there was only one boat less than 30 foot.
Since many newbies use Bahaha as a test run for starting their adventure in cruising life and the trend over the years has been to go to 30 feet or larger I would say, "sounds good to me!"

:cheers:

[Chad and Sandy]

Well Brien, It's been over two years since you posted your desire to circumnavigate this troubled world. I was just woundering how far you have gotten on your project. A small boat like that will still take much time to strengthen and to fit out and much planning and forethought. Let us know how it is going.

[Seth]

If have not been following this, you MUST check out the story of Roslin Forrest, a 23 year old girl from Vancouver who recently set out to become the youngest woman to go 'round solo nonstop-ala Ellen MacArthur.

She made it as far as San Francisco (about 10 days, I think), realized she was in WAY over her head, and quit.

It is facscinating becase she raised 100K from a sponsor, had the "support" team ashore, and yet she was hugely unqualified and unprepared-in the extreme!

There is a lot of the story written and commented on in sailinganarchy.com (a great site for irreverent sailing news), and her own site www.roslinforrest.com. Her site was changed today from a "watch me sail" story to a "how I failed" story.

There are a lot of lessons here-some funny, some sad. Shame on her "team" for even letting her go.

After a year of planning and rebuilding and modifying a production Columbia 34 (60's style), she lasted 10 days!

She learned the hard way what a truly serious undertaking this really is, and this should be required reading for those considering a trip like this..

As always, "Good Times"

Seth

[Mike.Gritten]

I am jumping in on this thread because I actually know Roslin. She has been working part-time at the local West Marine store here in Vancouver. It was only recently that I learned of her quest to circumnavigate. I can tell you that she is not without experience. She has sailed the South Pacific from Mexico to New Zealand as crew on other small sailboats. (She may have gone as far as Oz. I just can't remember specifics.) As I remember, she "hitched" rides on a variety of boats in exchange for crewing. The point I'm making is that she had lots of offshore experience, just has NO solo offshore experience on this boat. She has done virtually the entire refit herself, using professional help where funds allowed. I know that she must be devastated with having to give up.

[Seth]

Thanks for the comments Mike! I appreciate your point of view, and the fact that you know her. I was fortunate enough to correspond with her mother a few times during this thing as well.

You are correct that she hitched accross the ocean, and has some miles behind her-but one has to wonder what she learned on those trips.

The fact that once out in the ocean, she was faced with trying to remember how to REEF THE MAINSAIL says volumes. It would be hard to say this indicates anything faintly resembling real offshore experience...

Regardless of what she claims to have done in the past as qualifications, her own admissions of the reefing question, the jib sheets, halyard problems and the furling line being too short all are clear evidence she was completely unprepared. In fact, she admits this now.

Also the fact (and it IS a fact) that she did ZERO testing or shakedown cruises is a further indictment of both her thought process, planning, and ability-not to mention the people who should have known better-her shore crew!

My point here is that we need to call a spade a spade. I also feel for her and the loss of her dream, but we are all very lucky that this thing ended early safely-it was a recipe for disaster.

I have written here many times that I support short handed and singlehanded offshore sailing, but I do not support such voyages by the inexperienced and unprepared, and I worry that people like this will give other people who have this dream the idea that it is as simple as she seems to have thought it would be.

Sorry if I sound harsh, Mike-this story struck a cord with me, and although I am rarely opinionated (haha), I just had to weigh in on this one!

Have fun and be safe!

[briangsmith]

just to keep this scintilating and lively debate going here...
i thought we had a long-time, regular member, sven, who
consistently does blue-water miles with his (granted, beefed-
up and modified) E23???

bgs

[bigtyme805]

bgs:

Sven is all over the place with his 23 and it amazes me everytime I see him tell one of his stories about going to catalina or the channel islands. The channel Islands is quite a trek for him from Marina Del Rey.

So the debate lives on. In reality you can go anywhere, the risk is in your hands. Just hope none of us ever hit a rogue wave or get in the eye of a hurricane because no matter what you are in it could spell the end.

Don
E27 Amigo
Channel Islands

[windjunkee]

I don't remember the manufacturer of the boat, but back in 1988 I had just completed the passage from the Galapagos Islands to Hiva Oa, Marquesas on a 38' Island Trader ketch.
About a day or two after we arrived, a small 24' or 26' boat pulled in with a couple on board. They had sailed from Seattle to Hiva Oa. While the boat itself looked bulletproof, the woman on board was seasick the entire trip, the man said he was never able to stand up in the cabin. The trip was so long and so slow, they were apparently constantly fighting. The story they told was of being under experienced and unprepared for what they actually undertook.
It was amazing that they made it, given the lack of sufficient water storage and food storage, but they DID make it. However, all they wanted to do was get to a place where they could get rid of their boat and return home.
I myself have dreams of a circumnavigation, but even the 38' was very small for the task. I wouldn't go out on a trip like that again on anything less than a sturdy, off-shore-capable 42'.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134

[Sven]

just to keep this scintilating and lively debate going here...
i thought we had a long-time, regular member, sven, who
consistently does blue-water miles with his (granted, beefed-
up and modified) E23???

bgs

I hate to dampen our own reputation, but we're actually quite cautious even if we do go out as often as possible. Catalina, yes several times, with all kinds of weather. Haven't made it up to the roaring Channel Islands yet ... not enough time off :-(

We have had a few very exciting crossings, but only once did I think there was a possibility that we'd have to run for safe harbour.

We do hope to at least get to Santa Barbara Island this summer. Probably Marina Del Rey to Cat Harbour, Cat Harbour to Santa Barbara Island, Santa Barbara Island to Paradise Cove, and finally Paradise Cove back to Marina Del Rey. To make it enjoyable we'd lay over one day at each stop.

We put over 1000 NM under La Petite's keel in 2004 but that's because we do a minimum of 20 NM every weekend and usually more. We keep tweaking and gradually trying to make her feel well cared for, but she's basically a solidly built, beautifully designed, stock E23. We're lucky that she was so well cared for the first 28 years, before we found her on eBay.


-Sven

[1973E29 TUG]

There is a post in the "raft-up" section of the community forum about a couple of guys (a Canadian and a Norwegian) who are on their way around the world in an E29. See the post in "Raft-Up" called "Big Fish Story on an E29" They have a web site that is tracking their progress through log entries, photos, and video clips. their website is www.trafficated.com.