Oil viscosity and filter

[Kim Schoedel]

It is time to change the oil and filter on our 1984 Universal M25 #5421.

What viscosity would you suggest? I sail through the year including the Winter in North Idaho. Yep, freezing temps and snow.

I am partial to using OE filters but, the cost is about $14.00 for the Universal filter and an aftermarket is about $5.00 or so. Is there that much difference in function to justify the $$$?

Thanks for anyone's input on this.

[Loren Beach]

Have stayed with the Universal Filters for a decade, somewhat because the aftermarket ones I have found are a bit larger in size. It is a tight fit as it is, inside the alternator and almost against the coolant line.

I change it once a year when the oil gets changed, so it is not a financial burden.
My last spare gallon container of Delo is down at the boat. I will check on it later, but believe it is 15-40.

Loren in PDX
1988 Universal M25XP
three cylinder/23 hp

[Steve Swann]

Kim,

I have a 7hp Yanmar in my E25. Yanmar is adamant about using OEM filters only. They "claim" the oil pump operating pressures, the filter's pores, the two-stage cleaning, etc. are very different from one filter to the next and their filters are specifically designed for their engines and the aftermarkets are not. Whether this is a pile of bunk or not, I don't really know. One or two filters a year doesn't break the bank, so I just stay with an OEM.

I think that during the wintertime, a multi viscosity oil really benefits the engine even more than summertime. I use Chevron Delo 15-40 for several reasons. It tends to be less like molasses upon a cold start-up, easier on a high compression engine such as a diesel, provides quicker lubrication, and easier on your oil pump initially.

This post will probably really bring out a lot of discussion telling me I'm all wet, but I have good foul weather gear.

Steve
Seahorse
Boise, ID

[Steve Swann]

It appears I didn't contradict Loren, so that's a good thing! Whew!

By the way, I have used Chevron Delo for over 10 years in my diesel pickups, diesel cars, and in 3 boat engines. One of my cars had over 300,000 miles on it and one of my pickups nearly 250,000 miles - all with Delo 15-40. When I had a head gasket blow, the mechanic said the inside cylinder walls still had machining marks on them! Used oil has acids in it that aren't doing your engine any good. Change oil and filters often; it's cheap insurance.

Here's another interesting fact about your oil. It takes about an hour of running an engine to get all the moisture out of your oil - and this is each time you allow the engine to get to ambient temperature! Diesels are like a good mule: you've got to keep them in the harness a lot to keep 'em working well!

On another vein, there is another concern with today's ultra-low sulfur fuels. If you happen to be filling your fuel tanks with this new stuff, all of our boat engines need an additive to lubricate the high pressure injector pumps. The new fuel simply doesn't have the lubricants needed. I use Howe's which is not low-sulfur emission-compliant.

[Chris Miller]

something to keep in mind is that there are only 3 or 4 filter manufacturers. Universal/Westerbeke does not manufacture filters- they buy them from Wix (or similar) just like Napa does.
Chris

[Shadowfax]

Tom Metzger published a cross reference of filters awhile back that I use. I much prefer spending $5 for a Fram then $15 for a Unervasal filter that are, as far as I can tell, the same filter just a different color

[Shadowfax]

I'd like to hear more on ultra-low sulfur fuels. The Good, Bad, and the Ugly, and what to do about it, if anything. Prehaps a new thread is a good idea?

[u079721]

As for the filter issue, I always used the Fram equivalent on my Universal 5432 (M-40). Since I only used one a year is wasn't really the cost, but I could pick up the Fram at West Marine (or any auto supply store), rather than have to special order the Universal Part. I also liked keeping about three spare oil filters on board just in case.

[Kim Schoedel]

Thanks to everyone for your input. FWIW, I just ordered the Universal filter. Since I change oil just once per year, The cost factor is not significant. The engine doesn't get a lot of hours on it. Beside's, I really like to receive boat things in the mail.

[rwthomas1]

Consider using a synthetic diesel rated oil. 15w-40 is molasses thick in cold weather. Chevron makes a full synthetic version of their Delo 400 in 5w-40 weight. Shell offers a synthetic version of Rotella in 5w-40 as well. The cold "pumpability" of the synthetics makes a huge difference in engine cranking speed in cold weather. The engine will start quicker and your starter will thank you for not over working it. Of course, synthetic is more expensive but most people only accumulate enough hours to warrant one oil change a season so the cost is negligible. RT

[Captron]

One killer of diesel engines is soot accumulating in the lubrication oil. Filters remove some of the soot particulates, along with any other particulates that happen to float through, down to about 10 or 15 microns in size. Changing the oil gets rid of all the suspended particulate matter and you get to start over. The issue on our cruising boat, is the amount of oil involved.

If you accumulate less than 100 hours or so a year on your engine then changing the oil and filter once a year is not a big deal. But if you're like us, cruising the islands for 6 months at a time, oil changes are a very big deal. This is because ...

1.) The recommended oil change interval for our Universal 5432 is 75 hours
2.) It takes 11.5 quarts to change the oil
3.) There are no waste oil disposal sites in the islands
4.) We log about 400 hours each season

This situation means that we'd have to carry about 150 quarts of motor oil (both used and new plus the odd top off) and a case of filters. Where do you stow that? (Buying oil in the islands is expensive)

Instead of such frequent oil changes, we added a 'bypass oil filter' that works in addition to the full flow spin-on filter extracting particulates down to 2 microns. Then rather than changing the synthetic oil every 75 hours, we change both filters and top off the oil.

When I first adopted this system, I sent oil samples to a lab for analysis every filter change. The lab testing showed that we could probably go somewhere in excess of 1000 hours before an oil change would be required. However, we change the oil once each season anyway.

The last oil sample I sent off was last spring when we changed the oil and filters after about 400 hours. The sample tested clean.

Given my experience with this system, pollution concerns, dependence on foreign oil, waste oil disposal, etc, etc, I would think systems like this would be pretty standard by now. I suppose that they're not common because so far it doesn't make economic sense for most users, not to mention the oil companies.
:cartmann:

[Chris Miller]

That's a great idea, Ron.
How do you change the primary filter without oil gushing?
Chris

[wurzner]

There is a very informative website on oil filters and yes, there are very few manufacturers. What the website also noted is even within a brand, they will purchase it from different manufacturers and FRAM were the worst.

I use a Mobil 1 which costs about 2.5X what the others cost, but I don't mind since its the difference of about 20 bucks a year assuming 2 oil changes.

You can read it here http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

[rwthomas1]

Captron,
If you were closer I would buy you a beer! Kudos to you for doing things the right way, extended drain intervals confirmed with oil analysis. Extended drain applications are the perfect situation of synthetic lubricant use as the cost increase is offset by the increase in service life provided by the use of a bypass filter setup. I have a few questions for you:
1. Type/brand of bypass filtration system?
2. Type/brand of oil used?
3. What lab do you use for oil analysis?
4. How about some pics?

The neat thing about a bypass system is that a boat could go YEARS without an oil change provided the lube was closely monitored.

RT

[Kim Schoedel]

Ok, so I am a dufus! Going to pick up the oil for the big oil change program this weekend and forgot to look in the manual for the oil capacity with the filter change. And of course the manual is on the boat 53 miles away. Universal M25 #5421. If you have this motor, please let me know how many quarts of oil I need to get. Thanks a bunch!

[Frank Langer]

Kim, if you don't hear from anyone, do a search for the operating manual for this engine (I think it may be in the specs/docs section on this site; otherwise do a wider search). I found the info. for my smaller 5416 information that way.
Good luck.
Frank.

[Loren Beach]

It takes exactly one gallon to do the oil and filter change on my '88 M25XP.
I believe that your engine is very similar, being the previous 21 hp version (M25) of my engine model...

Class?
Bueller? Bueller??!!

:)

Loren

[Kim Schoedel]

Frank & Loren,

I couldn't find anything on the E site but thats oK. Thanks for your input. I will get a gallon of the juice and then should have enough whilst at the boat where I can check out the manual before doing the deed.

Happy Sailing!

[roger hinds]

Kim,

My M-25 takes 4 quarts(with filter change).

roger,
C'est Si Bon
1987 E-34

[Captron]

1. Type/brand of bypass filtration system?
2. Type/brand of oil used?
3. What lab do you use for oil analysis?
4. How about some pics?

To answer Chris first, The spin-on filter on my 5432 is horizontal on the starboard side of the engine and yes it is a bit of a mess. I minimize the mess by slipping a small (4x6x4) foil pan under the filter so that drips, etc fall into the pan. Then I'm carefull to keep the filter upright until I get it out of the engine compartment. With the engine off, there's no pressure on the oil system but the filters are full of oil.

The other filter is behind the engine on the bulkhead between the engine and the quarter berth and it's a mess to deal with too. It's vertical and the canister top comes off with a clamp then you lift out the element and stick a new one in. It holds about a quart of oil. I just use a bunch of oil-sorb pads under the thing and have a plastic bag ready to put the old filter into. Then there's usually a few drips that need to be mopped up. The tension on the clamp system is critical.

1.)The system I have is sold by Gulf Coast Filters, it's called O1-JR , the oil feed is tee'd off the oil pressure plug and the return (on mine) is tee'd into the oil pan drain hose. If I recall, I think it cost under $200 and I installed it myself.

2.) I've been using Shell Rotella Synthetic because it is compatible with about any oil I add ... I always try to add the Rotella Synthetic but it's not available in the islands ... however other Shell products are so I try to stay with Rotella or the islands version of Rotella.

3. The lab is Titan Labs affiliated with Gulf Coast Filters. I buy prepaid mailers from GCF (about $20)...the results come by mail. However, mailing a sample from the Bahamas takes about 2 months to get results back. GCF maintains a file on your engine so they can compare past results to the current test.

4.) I'll try to get some pictures.

GCF's website is http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/
I have no affiliation with them ... I'm just a customer. There are other systems... Amsoil sells one if I recall. I chose the GCF system because it modifies things the least and leaves the Universal system intact. If I were to have a problem with the bypass system, I can just plug it off and my engine is then back to its stock oiling system.

:egrin:

[CaptnNero]

1. Type/brand of bypass filtration system?
2. Type/brand of oil used?
3. What lab do you use for oil analysis?
4. How about some pics?
...

Ron, nice write-up and thanks for all of the details on your oil quality management. I wasn't aware of the oil disposal problem in the islands.

[Kim Schoedel]

Thanks all for the input on oil and filter. I did the deed yesterday and all went well except for the time it took to pump out the old oil. Yep, I purchased a cheap ($18.00) hand pump. Took about an hour to pump out the old oil! And I had warmed the engine before doing this. Why oh why do I do stupid things like this. I know why, the hand pump allows you to pump the old stuff into a jug of your choice. I wanted to see how much oil I got out of the motor. Hence the 1 gal milk jug.

I think I will go back to the mechanical pump that is driven by a drill. The only problem is if you do not hold on to the pump it will rotate and pull the drain tube out of the dip stick and yep, you have used oil flying around. Not a pretty picture.

BTW the Universal oil filter is a lot smaller and easier to handle.

[Captron]

I finally got into the engine compartment and took a few pictures of the bypass filter system I installed on Kismet. I was in there to service the heat exchanger anyway but that's another long, sad, tale of woe.

The first pic is the filter canister mounted on the bulkhead between the engine compartment and the engine. Clearance above the unit is important since the cap comes off to remove the filter. The blue hoses are the filter system lines.

The next is from the rear of the engine (bell housing in lower right) showing the tee at the oil pressure sender.

The third is a view from the companionway (top of the engine) looking aft.

The last is a view from the front of the engine showing the tee at the oil sump hose. The brownish line connects to the oil sump drain plug. The blue hose is the system return line. The other end of the tee is a pipe plug that I remove to change the oil.

Probably, maybe, someday, I'll permanently install an oil change pump on the bulkhead next to the filter canister so I can change the oil and filter while doubled over and crammed into the lazarette access hole. That way I'll be able to keep the mess where it will be near impossible to clean up.

[Richard Elliott]

The Universal M25 takes 3 1/2 quarts of oil. I have been using Royal Purple synthetic for several years due to big rig truckers' recommendations. However, like most posters I only change twice a year, changing after about 100 hours. Wix filters will not clear the alternator bracket on my engine, so I use Fram. BTW the non-skid coating on the end of the filter is very convenient.

[rwthomas1]

Thanks for the pics Ron! Nice install, simple and effective. I wish I could justify installing a bypass setup but I don't put enough hours on the engine in a year to justify the cost. Maybe someday I'll get to cruise and need one.... RT

[Loren Beach]

Speaking of oil, it is time for our fall oil change and time also to buy some more gallons of this stuff, since we are down to our last spare gallon jug of Delo 400.
I use the 15-40 weight. Store now carries only the "improved" LE version and since the counter clerk knew nothing about it... I looked it up at some Chevron sites online and it seems to be the replacement for the older Delo 400.
Just got off the phone with a diesel mechanic friend, and he confirms that he has switched to this and he has studied all the certifications for it. Appears to be a changed formula to please the '07 lower-sulphur diesel engines, and is certified to be as good as ever for all the older ones.
So I shall look for a case lot deal on this.
Anyone else run into this little question?

Loren
(1988 M25XP with about 1900 hours)

[rwthomas1]

Loren,
It would be difficult to go wrong with any heavy duty diesel rated oil. Delo 400 or Rotella T are readily available and appropriate for our marine-ised industrial engines. The standard is 15W-40 weight but the newer synthetics are offered in 5W-40 which flow better at lower temps. Not an issue for most of us..... RT