Battery life and charging. [Archive] - EY.o Information Exchange

Ernest

10-14-2006, 10:04 PM

If you are at a slip and recharge every night AND you have a real smart 2 or 3 stage charger, then 2-27's as a house bank are sufficient. Two 31's would fit in the same battery box and would be better. On the other hand, if you are away from recharging every night, such as anchoring out and only running the engine a couple of hours a day, then 2-27's are not even close to necc. capacity. When recharging with the engine alternator, you are effectively using the battery capacity between 50% (never go below) and at best 90% (since engine charging tapers rapidly as you approach full battery charge), or 40% of your total battery capacity. Therefore two 27's total 210 amps, gives you 84amps (maybe) usable in a 24 hour day with a about a 3 out of 24 hour charging cycle. Frig is about 4-6 amps per hour, times 24. Anyway, you get the picture. We used 2-31's for 5years but never went more than a couple of days before entering a slip for a complete 100% overnight charge with a 35 amp smart charger. You should also have a spare starting battery. Ernie Schlesinger ex E35-3 (now Sonar)

Mike.Gritten

10-14-2006, 10:20 PM

I disagree with the statement "..never go below 50%.."

You're correct however, to attempt to keep the level of discharge to a minimum in order to extend the useful life of your batteries. A few discharges below the 50% mark is going to make very little difference to the life of your batteries assuming that all the other components that make up your charging system are up to snuff. You should have an Alternator and regulator that match the size of your battery banks. The wiring must be proper marine grade tinned, stranded wire of an appropriate guage to your charging system and everything must be installed and fused appropriately. Keep in mind the voltage drops over long cable runs and for gosh sakes, get rid of that amps guage on your panel!

Nigel Calder's book is my bible for this stuff.....:nerd:

rssailor

10-14-2006, 11:24 PM

John,
Sounds like your battery setup may not have enough amps. You mentioned in your first post that you are going to enlarge your box to accomodate group 27 batteries. Is it possible to get two group 31 batteries in the space with modification? On to next question, if your having issues with not having enough amps, why not go with an externally regulated alternator of say sixty to eighty amps output and a Balmar or Ample power regulator. This will give you good charging while away from the dock and extend your battery life.
Now on to next issue; You stated that your zincs are going away quickly when plugged into shore power? This means one of your neighbors is dumping current to the shore ground most likely. Install a Guest galvanic isolator aboard the boat like a 2433P that meets ABYC standard, and your zincs should last longer. Good luck and enjoy the boat. Ryan

rwthomas1

10-15-2006, 12:35 AM

Having two small batteries and running a refrigeration system off them for more than a day will kill them very quickly. Even two group 31 batteries will only supply about 200 amp hours. I have three group 31's for the house bank and they are marginal for a weekend with the refrigeration running. I highly recommend reading this book http://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Calder/dp/0071432388/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-3908362-6072018?ie=UTF8 It will answer all your questions and then some. You need at least 400 amp hours for a house bank. I am upgrading to 430 amp hours worth of 6 volt golf cart batteries next season.

The other issue is the refrigeration system. If its a converted ice box setup then again you need to read that section in the Calder book. Many refrigeration systems draw too many amp hours due to poor insulation of the ice box.

Or keep playing the change the battery game....

RT

jkm

10-15-2006, 12:39 AM

Ryan

Heres my set up.

Stock 1973 E 35

Boat lived in a slip for 31 years-factory plastic on some of the cushions.

It had two type 24's. Has an old charge indicator guage Bad---Good.

Even older charger settings 1 thru 5, I have it set on 1.

I use no juice when anchored at Catalina. All lights are diodes. Don't use my old auto pilot. I only use my icebox with two Norcold plates.

Plates consume about 3 amps an hour. Box is insulated to ad nauseam. Still though at anchor I keep it on only 30 minutes every few hours. Don't need ice, but do need cold beer, Ouzo, Snappes, Limon etc

I do not charge the batteries by my A4. I did take a 800 watt generator last time. Drove me nuts.

What electrical guage do I need to ascertain my charge level. If I knew where I was at then I can choose a solar panel or wind generator.

What say you all.

John

EGregerson

10-15-2006, 12:57 AM

I've heard that battery life can be extended 3 - 5 fold by using a desulfator. Eliminates the lead sulfate buildup which apparently is the primary cause of battery death.:rolleyes:

Frank Langer

10-15-2006, 02:00 AM

John, sounds like you are being quite economical in your power usage when away from the dock. To help your fridge, have you considered taking a solid block of ice along--if you have the room for it, it will displace some air in the fridge, generally keep it cooler, and further minimize the amount of time you need to run the fridge--and a block of ice at $2.00 each is pretty cheap. You could also economize further if you created your own by freezing drinking water in a plastic 4 litre jug, then using it for drinking water when it thaws--might even save on a beer or two. :rolleyes:

If you plan on keeping the boat for a long time, you might consider installing a inverter/charger which also has a battery monitor/voltmetre on it--tells you how much you are using, how much is left, etc.

Frank.

rssailor

10-15-2006, 02:34 AM

John,
From your description of the charger, I would guess you have a Lewco unit, which is ok for wet cell batteries. Go with two group 31 batteries if you can fit em in. I would definetly make the conversion on my alternator of that A4 to an external regulator that way you can charge your batteries from the engine very efficiently. Next I would not have solar panel any smaller than 100 watts. Try to look for a 3 stage solar regulator for the panel.
I would still put on the Galvanic isolator if you want to be safe from problems with the dock power eating your zincs. The problem is small amounts of DC current coming onto the boat from the green wire of the shore power. Galvanic isolator will block this. Sounds like you need to check out a Link 20 two battery monitor that will give you a digital readout on battery voltage, amps going into or out of the battery, and AMP hours (power remaining in battery). Ok thats my advice to ya. Ryan

jkm

10-15-2006, 12:00 PM

Ryan

I'm going to go your route.

In an earlier post you mentioned an external regulator of 60-80 amps. Didn't mention a brand, but I can ask at WestMarine. Then I guess I need to couple that with a Balmer or Ample regulator to insure I don't cook the batteries. Am I right so far?

I do have a LEWCO.

I will install a galvanic isolator.

I think that if I can juice up my batteries with my A4 efficiently that will go a long way to help out. I'm one of those guys who loves the A4. It's efficient, effective and clean.

Thanks for your concern and wise advice.

John

Howard Keiper

10-15-2006, 12:45 PM

You can make up for fairly low battery capacity by insuring that your refridge is well insulated...as has been pointed out.

It is also correct that the standard A-4 alternator (35A Delco) with it's internal regulator will not even begin to replace the energy drawn in any kind of reasonable time frame. The battery terminal voltage comes up rather quickly when charging and tells the regulator to shut down...way too prematurely. 35 amps, however, is more than enough to charge your house bank if you could force the charge over a more significant length of time. Also, although the alternator says it's rated at 35A output, getting even 30A out of it for more than a few minutes is a pipe dream.
Sea Quest has a switchable manual regulator with which I can control the charging current, usually 10-15 amps for as long as I want. I also use a battery isolator, diode type, to make sure both batteries charge.There is a danger that the batteries could fry...boil, actualy, if I forget to turn off the switch. With the boat at rest and the engine running, I can hear it lugging down as I crank up the load. Very neat.

I admit that I don't like to use the manual regulator...it's cool but I've never gotten comfortable with it.

As regards a galvanic isolator...get one and use it. They cost about $100 or less for a 30A unit on e-bay. Worth every penny.

howard keiper

rssailor

10-15-2006, 03:38 PM

John,
No need for a new alternator, have your existing one reworked by a good shop to put out like sixty amps. Have the shop get rid of the internal regulator, bring a field and tach lead out for the external regulator to drive the alternator. I would highly recomend the Balmar MC 612 regulator as its easy to program and has better features in my opinion than the competition. If you use the Balmar unit, get the alternator and battery temp sensors. Good luck Ryan :egrin:

jkm

10-15-2006, 03:48 PM

Howard and Ryan

Tomorrow I'll start my research and put together my plan.

I'll post my progress.

Probably the most complex part of recreational sailing is electricity.

Thanks,

John

rwthomas1

10-15-2006, 08:10 PM

jkm,
While I agree with all the advice given here I don't agree with the necessity of all the upgrades. Since your boat is on a slip with shore power available the batteries can be charged easily from dockside power. It sounds like you really only use your boat for weekends and other short excursions.

Upgrading/increasing the size of your house battery bank will give the best bang for the buck. Do you motor much? Do you like having to run the motor to charge the batteries? A large battery bank will allow you to go much longer before needing to recharge. Let a battery charger take care of recharging when you get back to the dock.

I would recommend upgrading to at least 300Ah/hr house battery bank with a dedicated separate starting battery for the engine. Add to this a 40amp Xantrex battery charger with a galvanic isolator or better yet an isolation transformer. Solar panels, windchargers, high output alternators/regulators are great for putting energy back into a battery bank however they are not a crutch for an undersized house bank.

Things to do immediately:
Add more battery capacity, install galvanic isolator or isolation transformer, install high quality battery charger. This will fix your immediate problems

Things to add down the road:
Link 20 battery monitor or like, high output alternator/regulator, latching relay to automatically connect starting battery to house bank during charging.

Things to add if on a mooring or staying out for more than a few days:
Bigger house bank, high output alternator/regulator, solar panels and/or windcharger, Link 20 monitor.

It is very difficult to have to much battery capacity.
RT

Howard Keiper

10-15-2006, 08:22 PM

Roer what Rob said.

The pecking order ought to put the galvanic isolator right up near the top.

howard Keiper

rssailor

10-15-2006, 11:34 PM

RW,
Yes I agree that John needs more house bank and yeah two 31's is minimal in my opinion as well. Not sure how much room that John has for batteries or how much effort and cost he is going to put into the upgrades. My opinion would be that as long as the Lewco is opperating properly that he could use it and save the money for a battery monitor and or alternator upgrade. After all, more batteries are great, but how do you charge em away from the dock? Yes John needs to get the galvanic isolator ASAP and if possible get one that meets ABYC spec to monitor the neutral and ground. Ultimatly John will weigh all of our advice and decide what is best for his use of the boat and what his budget can afford. Ryan

jkm

10-16-2006, 01:24 AM

Gents

I now know that i have a rather new Leece Neville Alternator part # 8MR2198L with a Leece Neville regulator part # 8RG2064.

Alternator puts out 65 amps, at what RPM I do not know.

I have room to modify my battery box to accept two type 27s-if the 31's are the same size, about 7" by 12" then I can jump up to the 31's.

Some where maybe I can put in a Type 24 for the motor start.

I've already gone to Ebay for the Galvanic isolator. None at this time but I will get one immediately.

I'll call a motor shop tomorrow to see if I can get rid of the regulator then investigate the battery monitor. I'll need something, maybe the monitor, to prevent the batteries from cooking. I'll report back as to how I can upgrade the output of the alternator, so that when I'm camping I can recharge, if I need to within a reasonable time.

I'll report back tomorrow.

Thanks so much I don't know how I'd get this done without you sages.

John

valentor

10-16-2006, 01:19 PM

John;

In reading your posts, I can empathize. When I bought my E-34 seven years ago, the batteries would only last about two hours, then it would be necessary to run the engine for two hours to get another two hours of battery life. A vicious cycle for distance races and cruising.

I completely redesigned the system and have had excellent results over the last six years.

Below is an old post which outlines the components I used. I hope this helps, time has proven this to be a great systems. All three batteries still test to 'new' levels - I can still sail for three days, engine free - even after (now) six years, though I do now run the engine while using the microwave.

Best regards;

Steve

----------------------------------
Todd;

Four years ago I upgraded my electrical system on my 1978 E-34. It was quite an adventure. The original Ericson system was terrible.

The old system was two group 27 batteries with a Perko 1-2-Both switch. One battery was always reserved for starting, the other for house. The system requiried almost equal an hour of charging for each hour of battery use - and it was necessary to replace one of the batteries every two years or so.

Warning: I work in electronics, so I got a little carried away with this!

First you must determine average current draw. This is done by multiplying the amount of time each appliance will be used by it's current draw. I used a spreadsheet for this. Then you decided how often you are willing to recharge your batteries. This leads you to the amount of Amp-Hours you must provide, but there are inefficiencies which must be accomodated before you size your battery banks. The biggest factor is that batteries should only be discharged to about 50% of their rated capacity - so you have to double what you thought you needed. Other inefficiencies include voltage drop over wires, current leakage in the charging system and appliances, and resistance in connections.

In my case, I needed two size 31 AGM batteries (210 Amp-Hours) to be able to sail the Chicago-Mac without running the engine. An additional size 24 battery was reserved for engine starting.

Next, you need to have enough alternator to provide the charging current at a high enough rate. I chose a Balmar 100 Amp alternator and a Balmar three-stage regulator so that I could charge the 50% discharged battery bank (105 Amps) in 2 hours. Another subtle little point is that battery capacity is inversely proportional to the currnet load it must provide. In other words, a 100 AH battery will provide 100 Amps at a current draw of 5 Amps per hour - but if the battery is loaded to provide 50 Amps per hour, it will not even last that hour.

So you also need a monitor that will keep track of not only how much cirrent you draw, but how fast you draw it. The Link-10 from Heart Interphase is a great device for this application.

In order to ensure that all that charging capacity was transferred tot he batteries - rather than dissipated as heat in small wires and old switches, I replaced all the corroded, undersized old copper wires with Ancor tinned #1 AWG wires. And just for a little extra safety, I isolated the batteries positive terminals with 135 Amp circuit breakers (as is required on commercial boats that must be inspected).

Finally, I followed the advice of the West Marine advisor and installed seperate switches for the house and engine banks. The thinking here is that there is no chance to accidentally run down the engine battery since it is not even connected to house loads. An emergency cross-over is included so that it is possible to start the engine from the house batteries in an emergency.

Since I keep Rogue on a mooring and do not have regular access to shore power, I installed a small 5 Watt solar charger just to top off the batteries during the week. For occasions that I do use a slip and can charge the batteries, I installed a small 10 Amp Xantrex true Charge unit.

The result - Even with four years on the system, I can still sail for three days without running the engine. We are not shy about using battery power. We run the computer all the time, watch DVD's during the off watch, run a microwave to cook meals for a crew of eight, an listen to a lot of CD's. Also my battery banks test at full (new) capacity. I don't expect to have to buy batteries for another 15 years.

If you want more information, feel free to email me directly.

Regards;

Steve
__________________
Rogue - Chicago

Tom Metzger

10-16-2006, 03:39 PM

John - A grp 31 battery is a little longer and taller than a grp 27. 13"l x 6 13/16"w x 9 7/16"h. Some people make a big deal out of the bigger size, but it has less than 10% more amp-hours, 115 vs 105 ah. You can make up the difference by discharging to 55% which would have a negligible difference on life. The last time I bought batteries the cost did not justify the larger capacity.

BTW, grp 27 batteries should be rated at 105 ah, not all are. [WM and Interstate, can you hear me].

If you get a starting battery you can parallel them into one house bank and then you only need one monitor. There is no point in having a monitor on the starting battery as starting uses very little energy. Most of us start using the house bank and only have the starting bank for emergencies. The Link 10 is very good and cheaper than it's replacement, the XBM, which has features you won't use.

A last thought: The advice here is worth just what you pay for it. Some of the posts sound a little like snake oil peddlers.

rwthomas1

10-16-2006, 10:06 PM

A last thought: The advice here is worth just what you pay for it. Some of the posts sound a little like snake oil peddlers.

Nothing personal, but care to explain that? He asked for advice and he got it. Sure, some dissent exists in exactly what and how the upgrades should be performed however I see no maliciousness in any post....

RT

Tom Metzger

10-17-2006, 02:25 AM

Ah - Touchy today. I didn't imply maliciousness.

The snake oil peddler was an historical and folkloric figure of the American Old West, often featured in Western movies: a traveling "doctor" with dubious credentials, selling some patent medicine — such as snake oil — with boisterous marketing hype, often supported by pseudo-scientific evidence. Less scientifically, but perhaps even more effectively from an immediate sales viewpoint, an accomplice in the crowd would often 'attest' the value of the product in an effort to provoke buying enthusiasm. The "doctor" would prudently leave town before his customers realized that they had been cheated.

It seems to me that people are recommending a system that would keep a continuous cruiser going forever, rather than an improvement for a weekender who has been getting along, barely, on two grp 24 batteries.

We all love the system we built, but it isn't the best system for all, and frequently isn't the best system for our boat.

Examples - An isolation transformer @ $400. Or a 40 amp Xantrex charger when he already has a charger.

rwthomas1

10-17-2006, 09:39 PM

Touchy? Not really, just don't like being implicated in "selling" anything. The fact that jkm stated the zincs were being eaten off the boat when it was plugged in is reason enough to warrant a galvanic isolator or better yet an isolation transformer. This advice goes quite beyond the original request however it just makes sense to address a possible serious electrolysis problem.

I would take issue with using an old type battery charger. Admittedly I am unfamiliar with the existing type however if it is old, possibly original then it will not charge batteries as efficiently nor will it offer the overcharge protection that new chargers offer.

I would find it hard to believe that anyone performing any of the upgrades mentioned would feel "cheated" afterwords. I hardly see how an upgraded alternator and battery bank, etc. would be considered applicable to continuous cruising only. It is a 35ft sailboat after all and not a 22ft daysailer. RT

jkm

10-17-2006, 10:07 PM

I want everyone to know that I greatly appreciate the input. All wise and it is true the scale goes from the least expensive to more expensive.

This is what I need because only I can choose what is right for me. All advice is culled. Interesting even Rob last post present another issue about the quality of the charger.

Nonetheless I have discovered two things. The 35's icebox is pathetic in the layer of insulation that was sprayed on by the factory. I slipped a mirror under the sink wall and saw it. Despite my efforts inside the box I must now spray in expanding foam, lots of it. I'm going to avoid Howards method and go thru the undersink area and thru the drawer walls FIRST. I've insulated the inside of the box and I hate to violate the stock appearance of my boats elements. Though his cooler is pretty damn outstanding.

My Leece Neville alternator puts out about 20 amps at 1000 rpm, though the motor probably idles at 750 rpm so at 75 degrees f I'm probably charging 12 to 14 amps an hour. Pathetic.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can bump this up with a change in pullies-I'm not holding my breath.

Say I only go to the type 27's $ 60.00 each at Costco 115 amph each it would take, using the 50% rule about 10 hours to recharge my batteries-can't go that long without a beer.

So...
1. upgrade to 27's
2. sneaking in a 24 as an emergency start battery (this could outside my system and chargable at the slip only.)
3. Get a Link 10 to monitor what's going in and out.
4. Check out high output alternators and solar panel/wind generator-weigh their costs.
5. Then if I go with a new alternator, check out the charger (I'm assuming the juice from an alternator goes through the charger first or is it only important when getting 110 shore power?????????)
6. If the charger is unimportant that what becomes important is getting the passive systems to the batteries.

Most important is the galvanic isolator. I think this is so important I'll pay the freight for a new one. Where does it go??

Please critique my thinking.

John

CaptnNero

10-17-2006, 11:13 PM

...
Most important is the galvanic isolator. I think this is so important I'll pay the freight for a new one. Where does it go??

Please critique my thinking.

John

The one I installed went between the incoming power receptacle ground terminal and the ground wire going to the distribution panel.

CaptnNero

10-18-2006, 12:04 AM

I've been following this thread and was surprised to see the reference to sales people known for their dishonesty, aka "snake oil peddlers". The remark was offered without specificly naming anyone though it was clear that multiple targets were intended. I think that was an unfortunate analogy choice especially considering that none of the contributors to this thread have anything to gain financially by offering their solicited advice, nor are they using a confederate to endorse their recommendations.

I do hope that amongst our user community in the future we can disagree without resorting to insults.

jkm

10-18-2006, 12:15 AM

Neal

If the isolator goes after the shore plug then it needs to be before the distribution panel-right?

On another matter:

We all have bad days and as RK said "can't we all get along"? I myself had to go to my neighbor tonight and eat crow over a stupid disagreement we had.

I've come to really admire some of you old salts and don't want a thread of mine contaminated. Lets all back of and forget it. After all we all are Ericson lovers.

How is my thinking on my previous thread??????

John

Howard Keiper

10-18-2006, 12:30 AM

A galvanic Isolator does indeed connect between the power recepticle and the main distribution box, (the green wire). Remember, it is not switched nor is there any overload (breaker or fuse) protecton; and it's case must be connected to the grounding bus. Also remember, your insurance surveyor will love you.

CaptnNero

10-18-2006, 12:53 AM

Neal

If the isolator goes after the shore plug then it needs to be before the distribution panel-right?

Hey John,

Yes, that is correct. The instructions for mine specifically said to attach it to the ground terminal on the incoming power receptacle and then the other end to the ground wire that was previously on the terminal. Of course when you get around to buying one you will need to follow the instructions for that unit.

On another matter:

We all have bad days and as RK said "can't we all get along"? I myself had to go to my neighbor tonight and eat crow over a stupid disagreement we had.

After observing the bytes flying I felt compelled to respond for the sake of the innocent. Now that's out of my system and I'm no longer in such a riotous mood.

And I for one have long thought that you should spend much less time with your neighbors and much more on your boat. Heck, move onto the boat on a mooring and you won't even have neighbors ! ;)

I've come to really admire some of you old salts and don't want a thread of mine contaminated. Lets all back of and forget it. After all we all are Ericson lovers.

Indeed !

CaptnNero

10-18-2006, 01:45 AM

Neal
...
How is my thinking on my previous thread??????

John

Ok, I'll go for it now that you've calmed the waters.;)

Here's my two bits.

1. upgrade to 27's
2. sneaking in a 24 as an emergency start battery (this could outside my system and chargable at the slip only.)
3. Get a Link 10 to monitor what's going in and out.
4. Check out high output alternators and solar panel/wind generator-weigh their costs.
5. Then if I go with a new alternator, check out the charger (I'm assuming the juice from an alternator goes through the charger first or is it only important when getting 110 shore power?????????)
6. If the charger is unimportant that what becomes important is getting the passive systems to the batteries.

First I say get the #3 Link 10 and take some measurements for more data to set your expectations before you decide which battery size to commit to.

On #1, I would not choose the wet cells that you prefer. While they are low cost they do not like vibration and g-forces, emit hydrogen, need to be nursed, and have a much higher self discharge rate. This combination of features increases probability of earlier failure in your marine application. Instead I would look into AGM. Though significantly more expensive I think you will find reliability and longevity will increase in the marine environment. Another plus is that they can be mounted at any angle except inverted which may help installation. FYI - the AGM choice itself could mandate a new shore charger and alternator regulator.

#2 is a good idea except I would upgrade that one battery to the same size of the house batteries so you can parallel them for charging without issues. Battery manufacturers do not recommend paralleling batteries of different capacities. Now if you do switch to AGM you'll need to make this one an AGM also. Oops, more bucks committed up front.

For #4 I like the idea of the solar charger considering that you don't plug in much. Of course you need to weigh that against your cruising power demands which the alternator is going to address much faster. On the solar output you're probably talking about 6amp output total so that's at most 30-40 amp-hrs per day on a good day assuming the things are actually pointed well at the sun. With the panels you'd need yet another regulator.

On #5, the alternator output likely does not go through the 110V shore charger. Instead the alternator either has an internal regulator or an external one connected to it's output. The Link 2000R is a modern battery monitor which also has a regulator. I'm not recommending that since it's pricey but just pointing out that it is possible to regulate shore charger and alternator outputs with one regulator.

On #6, your shore charger sounds obsolete with respect to charging discipline. I would confirm that and if so look for a good, durable three stage marine charger programmable for your battery type. The old one likely is very heavy and will make a good doorstop. ;)

The AGM portion of my recommendation does inflate costs considerably. However comparing AGM and wet cells is like comparing apples and oranges so it's really a system quality issue for me.

Tom Metzger

10-18-2006, 04:00 PM

John - I'll try play nicely. :)

To comment on your list, items 1, 2, & 3 are right on the money. Two is the right approach because, unless someone repealed ohm's law, batteries charge according to need, not the label on the case. Batteries do not have to be the same size to charge in parallel. This assumes that all of the batteries are of the same type, flooded, AGM, or gel. I recommend flooded cells because of cost and availability. The advantage of AGMs on boats is that you can charge them faster, but the reality is that we don't have that ability because of alternator and charger limitations along with the wiring. The other advantages are mostly advertising as the flooded cells work well in boats. Think Ronco. :devil: Damn, I did it again. I am not sure that different brands of AGM should be charged together as some use significantly different designs.

My thoughts on item 4 are that you should do a little checking on your alternator wiring before looking at spending any money. You may be able to get the improvement you need without going to a new alternator. I am not familiar with the wiring on A4s, but I am familiar with Universal diesels and suspect that the alternators are wired the same. That is to say that the output of the alternator goes to the instrument panel ammeter and then to the battery switch and batteries. The wire on the diesels is #10 and has a long run which drops the current going into the batteries considerably. Some years ago I posted on this site under "Owner's Projects" a fix for this problem. It's titled "Universal Diesel Engine Mods" and you want "change A". Essentially what it does is direct the alternator output directly to the battery by using the large wire on the engine starter solenoid.

Since you are using shore power I would not consider wind generators or solar cells. A wind generator will annoy you and your neighbors (noise :hoppingmad: ) and the solar cells will clutter up you handsome boat with not much output. Both are primarily for cruisers or moorings. Think that much more hair in the scuppers.

Items 5 refers to the charger, and, while unfamiliar with your charger, it sounds like a manually controlled charger which is not very efficient if you aren't sitting on the boat monitoring the charging. It doesn't mix well with drinking beer. Both under charging and over charging shorten battery life. If it puts out 13.5 volts on a steady basis it is acceptable if given enough time. That's where the battery monitor comes in. A three stage charger is best for what we want on a boat. I like Xantrex or Charles and dislike ProMariner and Guest from experience. The charger and alternator are wired separately as others have said.

Item 6 went away.

ted_reshetiloff

10-18-2006, 05:50 PM

I am in agreement with Tom here. I run 2 group 31's on my house bank Gels . Xantrex programmable alt regulator, 80 amp alt., Xantrex True charge 20amp ac charger, echo charge combiner, group 27 starting battery gel , link 10 monitor. All new wiring and circuit protection. I would like to add the galvanic isolator but have found it a lot cheaper to simply unplug the boat once things are charged. My fridge (adler barbour) runs roughly 50% of the day at 5.5 amps so 66 amp hours. By far the biggest consumer. Adding LED cabin lights, running lights and anchor lights cuts the draw a lot, its like better insulation on the fridge. If you are just a weekend warrior I would advise a similar set up to mine it has worked great. I monitor the link and keep my depth of discharge to 50% max. It does not require me to run the engine much more than I normally do just getting where I'm going. By simply upgrading wire to tinned wire of sufficient guage and shortening the runs where possible you can make huge gains. I run the alt. output directly to the house bank + not through the starter and battery switches. It is fused. I used the Blue Seas panel for parralleling in an emergency and I use the echo charge to combine the house and starting bank when charging. A 20 amp ac charger is plenty big for your boat. Wind generators and solar panels are not needed in your case. Galvanic isolator would be nice but its a lot cheaper to simply pull the plug. You should be fully charged after a weekend of cruising by being plugged in overnight. One more thing on battery types, I dont like wet cells because of the hydrogen emmissions and ability to spill acid in your boat. I prefer AGMS becuase of the faters charge rates provided you have the equipment to charge them that way. Gels are a nice compromise in that they are sealed batteries which will not leak acid even in a knockdown situation. They can be charged faster than wet cells (again assuming you have the right equipment namely high output alternator and progeammable regulator) but not as fast as agms and they are priced in between wet cells and agms.
No comment on the snake oil talk other than to say this is an open forum where you will get advice from people who have various opinions and experience levels. If you really want to learn this stuff pick up Nigel Calders books and have a go at it.

Tom Metzger

10-18-2006, 06:39 PM

Ted - A couple of people have mentioned unplugging their boats when not charging. My question is how do you do this when you get back to the marina late on Sunday afternoon and have to be at work the next morning a hundred and fifty miles away? I would think it a hell of a lot more convenient to stay connected.

The admiral likes not having to carry everything cold back and forth, which requires the fridge to stay on.

I ran my alternator to the solenoid because it is six inches away from the alternator terminal, and the existing wire is 1/0.

It should be noted that your 80 amp alternator would not be limited by two grp 31 flooded cells, particularly with an echo charger which I don't recommend. The three step charger prevents most hydrogen generation.

Ernest

10-18-2006, 08:15 PM

John. Chargers work only on 110 volt at the dock and do not have anything to do with the alternator. New chargers have at least 3 stages and safely charge much faster than old ones. They are wired directly to the batteries. If you stay above the 50% discharge and get a good charger, you will only buy new batteries every 5 years or more. And by the way, I used Costco batteries for 9 years, (two sets) and they were fine. The first set were still fine and were only replaced because we were taking a major trip and were nervous about their age. The starting battery (Costco) is still in the (sold)boat after 9 years.

ted_reshetiloff

10-18-2006, 09:09 PM

If you do not live close to the boat then you cannot easily unplug after charging and a galvanic isolator is definately the way to go. The reason I did not want to run the alt output to the soleniod is to isolate the house bank from the starting bank. The only thing connected to my starter is my startign battery and thats the only thing connected to that battery. This way there is no chance that the house bank can drain the starting bank accidentally like if someone left the selector switch on both. This also keeps the charging path from the alternator from having to go to the selector switch then to the house bank. The echo charge is a combiner that parralels the house bank with the starting bank only when the voltage is significant to charge. This also prevents the starting bank from draining to the house bank when charging. I would be curious to hear your thoughts against using the echo charge or any combiner for that matter. Everthing I have read lately suggests doing away with the on/off/all switches and simplifying the cable runs is the way to go. My external alt. regulator is programmed to charge gels and uses a multi step algorithm designed for those batteries, same story with the true charge ac charger. I would ultimately like to go to a 6 volt agm house bank configuration that will get my bank closer to 400amp hours in a similar footprint as the group 31's but thats a way down the road after I buy a few more important items like a new dodger...

Am I to understand that you (Tom) leave your fridge on all the time, even when you are not on the boat?

jkm

10-18-2006, 09:42 PM

Gentlemen

I've done my homework as you all suggested.

I ordered a galvanic isolater (30 amp) today. I do not want to waste any more time on that upgrade. Thanks for the input on that one.

I do live a short walk to my boat and could unplug it, but I'm getting forgetful.

As you all know this started with my need to have my Norcold plates in my icebox work over the weekend while at Catalina. Say 60 hours maximum, more likely 48.

1. I will upgrade the insulation even more.

Because my existing system works just fine, the only exception is my need for cold beer, so if I isolate that need (no I won't give up the beer) why screw with my existing system.

Why can't I install one of those 4D batteries, which put out about 200 amphours, somewhere and tie it into the shore charger as well as the icebox.

If I leave the dock with the battery fully charged, the plates use about 3 amps an hour, hell I could run that battery down to nothing and have 70 or so hours of continuos use (course the icebox will cycle off and on). Can I can run it down below the 50% rule?

Am I crazy???????

John

Tom Metzger

10-18-2006, 10:05 PM

Apparently we wasted a hell of a lot of keystrokes trying to upgrade your system so I could have a cold beer if I ever ventured out to Socal. If you put in a 4D and run it down to zilch you will have the same system you have now. OK it's 200 ah instead of 170, and you will get a hernia handling it every year, but it's not a real improvement. Besides the hernia, what is the difference between a 4D and two 27s?

I'll just assume you are another Socal blond and drop it. :headb: No, don't worry. I'm not coming out there.

Tom Metzger

10-18-2006, 10:50 PM

Ted - Yes, I leave my fridge on 24/7. We have very reliable power up in the northern boonies. Because the AB has a 10.5v cutout nothing gets destroyed if the power does go out.

The reason I don't like combiners is that the starting battery doesn't need to be charged very often and it unnecessarily slows down the house bank charging . Starting only uses about 1/4 amp-hour which means that you have lots of starts before requiring a charge. The combiner is just one more thing that can go wrong. I charge my starting battery on shore power only. I picked this up from Mike Adler (Adler-Barbour) in a letter to Practical Sailor several years ago.

I don't worry about my 1-2-both switch being left in both because I never use that position. The only time I use other than the 1 position is if I am testing my start battery, maybe once a month when I am away from he dock for several days. The start battery is strictly for emergency use.

I can't argue with your using a dedicated start battery; When I wired my boat it just seemed like another bother. FWIW, I haven't replaced my "unused" flooded start battery after 10 seasons. It is getting due, but there is always another 1/4 a-h. :)

Changing battery types seems like an expensive hassle. I could burn a lot of diesel charging before I would spend that much all at once.

CaptnNero

10-18-2006, 11:57 PM

...Two is the right approach because, unless someone repealed ohm's law, batteries charge according to need, not the label on the case. Batteries do not have to be the same size to charge in parallel. This assumes that all of the batteries are of the same type, flooded, AGM, or gel.

Though I spoke of the manufacturers recommendations, the real concern is about leaving the switch in the wrong position after disconnecting charging. Without installing a combiner which adds even more cost and complexity, one can upgrade from the Group 24 to a 27 on the starting battery for a relatively small increase in cost and not have detrimental effects from leaving the switch in the wrong position off the charger as humans tend to do.

John - I'll try play nicely. :)

...Think Ronco. :devil: Damn, I did it again.

Now we have a reference for what "I'll try" means. ;)

jkm

10-19-2006, 11:09 AM

Tom

Great post. Sorry you feel that way. As I learned at Georgetown Law School most people get off message.

I asked for ideas on improving the efficiency of my AC DC icebox. I received many such ideas. Learned a tremendous amount and have identified a deficiency in my Penguin (galvanic isolator).

Of course I appreciate all the keystrokes and when I sail to the cool waters off La Paz I will upgrade my system or forget the cold beer and revert back to scotch.

Actually two 27's may be more cost effective.

I have brown hair and feel free to drop by SoCal and have a beer. I'll even give you my old insulated LLBean boots (I don't need them), seems upstate NY might have a long winter.

Thanks everyone for your wise and thorough assistance.

John

Loren Beach

10-19-2006, 12:36 PM

Our speaker at the monthly YC meeting last night was an ABYC rep.
He was adamant that, in spite of the weight (about 80#) an isolation transformer was far safer than a galvanic isloator. He claimed that the G.I. would be a cheaper solution *only* if it lacked the required circuitry to notify in case of an open ground (or something like that).

We also learned that these set of "standards" from the ABYC are all voluntary at the OEM level and this whole set of industry-agreed-upon "rules" exists to stave of direct Federal intervention/law making.
He acknowledged that we owners are getting short shrift when our insurers mandate ABYC "rules" on us, and then ABYC will not even give us a copy of the rules without a hefty dollar payment.
I just checked their site, and while it now purports to have a PDF d/l capability, it does not seem to function.

I still wonder about installing a "zinc saver". Adding 80# of transformer to our small boat is a non starter of an idea, FWIW.

Thanks to all for the education posted here thus far.

Loren in PDX

John Butler

10-19-2006, 01:16 PM

I installed the Guest 30 AMP GI (2433-P) that meets ABYC regs (has full time status monitoring -- only the Plus model has this) in my boat. It was easy to install, weighs 3.5 lbs. and is small enough to fit behind my AC panel. I don't know what an Isolation Transformer sells for, but size and weight alone are enough to keep me from looking. West Marine currently lists the 2433-P for $147.77 (I bought mine off the web from somewhere -- forget where). After opening the box, I discovered that the remote indicator (2400-RI) is sold separately (something I still need to get and install since my GI is behind my AC panel and its monitoring lights can't be seen).

John

jkm

10-19-2006, 02:46 PM

Sometimes it never ends.

As I said earlier this is such a severe issue for a sailor the information that has been disseminated here is PRICELESS

John

Tom Metzger

10-19-2006, 03:47 PM

Because my existing system works just fine, the only exception is my need for cold beer, so if I isolate that need (no I won't give up the beer) why screw with my existing system.
I assume "priceless" means having no value.

jkm

10-19-2006, 05:09 PM

Tom

"priceless |?pr?sl?s| adjective
so precious that its value cannot be determined : priceless works of art"

I usually don't go to this length correcting one's understanding of our common language.

The advice I received from all, including you, was most appreciated.

John

CaptnNero

10-19-2006, 09:05 PM

Careful lest we reinvent our own AC/DC version of this (in)famous internet bit of dry humor.
;)
"The Lightbulb Thread"
Question: How many forum-ites does it take to change a lightbulb?

...

Loren I liked you post but for Christ's sake this is a battery and charging thread. You could have least mentioned LEDs...

rwthomas1

10-19-2006, 10:33 PM

FWIW, here is how my system is wired up:
Battery bank #1 = (3) group 31 wet cells all paralleled together
Battery bank #2 = (1) group 31 dedicated starting battery
Standard 1, 2, 1+2 and Off battery switch, banks wired as numbered
Xantrex 20amp AC battery charger
Stock alternator on Universal 5432 engine.

The Xantrex charger has TWO charge leads so it automatically charges both banks when it is turned on, regardless of battery selector switch position.

I never use the start battery for anything but emergency starting. Occasionally I switch the selector switch to "both" when running the engine to top off the start battery. This is rare as I use a Honda 2000watt portable generator to recharge my batteries when I need it. I hate running the engine, the boat is on a mooring and I motor infrequently so engine charging with a stock alternator/regulator is a waste of time.

My AB refigeration system sucks the juice down quite quickly, something like 5amps per hour? The insulation in the icebox sucks too. The Honda has to run every day to keep up even out for a weekend. This is not so bad as the Honda is VERY quiet and I try to run it either in the early evening during peak electrical use or while I am off the boat for a few hours, etc. Even if I don't charge while out for a weekend then I need to leave the Honda running for a long while once back on the mooring. Some may be uncomfortable leaving a running generator on the deck but it has not been an issue and I don't see why it would.

My solution is multi-pronged:
-Increasing house battery bank to 460Amp/hr. of 6volt golf cart batteries.
-Installing Ample Power alternator/regulator (in basement now)
-Installing Xantrex 2000watt inverter w/100amp charger integral
-Installing Link 20 or 2000.
-Tearing out icebox this winter to install new, thicker insulation and Glacier Bay icebox lid.

Solar panels and/or wind generator are distant future possiblities.

There are a couple of things going on here. The poorly insulated icebox is a power hog. The quickest and easiest fix is more/better isulation and a really good lid. This will help more than anything. The second issue is charging the batteries.

The trouble with battery chargers is they often don't deliver the amps needed to truely recharge batteries quickly during the "bulk" charge phase. AFAIK, when charging a battery from the 50% discharge state to 80% charged, the bulk phase, this is the stage when the battery will accept the most energy in the shortest period of time. It makes sense to utilze a charger that can deliver lots of energy. The Xantrex inverter/charger has a 100amp charger built in. This will charge my batteries much faster during the bulk phase than the 20amp unit currently installed. The added benefit is AC power when I want it and automatic switching from inverter AC and dockside AC.

The upgraded Ample Power alternator/regulator will also help. Although I don't run the engine all that much the upgraded units will perform far better than my stock setup. At least when I do run the engine there will be serious output from the alternator and far better charge control with the new regulator.

Whats this all mean? At the end of it the system will be able to run for longer before needing recharging and the recharging will be faster and more efficient.

The way I see it this will make the boat more comfortable, useable and safer. Safer you say? Hows that? More Amp/hrs means that in nasty weather the radar, autopilot, gps, nav lights, etc. will last longer. This is really nice if for some reason the engine quits.....

Are all these things needed? Depends on what you want to do. Honestly, if I was jkm and just needed to keep beer cool I would look seriously into reworking the icebox or simply using ice. I "jumpstart" my refrigeration system with 3 blocks and 2 bags of ice every weekend trip. They are usually only 50% gone after two days. Ice is pretty cheap compared to all the crap I am working towards. To each his own. I just wanted to show where I was coming from when I make recommendations on this kind of topic. RT

Howard Keiper

10-19-2006, 11:25 PM

The ABYC is reviewing the requirement for indicators on a GA, but the point is moot anyway since you can't buy them any other way that I'm aware of, and the Price of $140 is not out of line. $140 sounds more like the 50A unit. Anyway, an Isolation Transformer's performance no matter how you measure it, is not vastly superior to that of a Galvanic Isolator....the price is, however.

howard keiper

CaptnNero

10-19-2006, 11:43 PM

... This is rare as I use a Honda 2000watt portable generator to recharge my batteries when I need it. I hate running the engine, the boat is on a mooring and I motor infrequently so engine charging with a stock alternator/regulator is a waste of time.
...

Rob, since it sounds like reducing charge time away from the dock is desirable you might want to research the AGM batteries. They will reduce your charge times but at 2-3 times more cost. On the other hand if the diesel is used to charge them the engine will have less of that undesirable low load hours.

Concerning using that little Honda on deck I'll pass along a quote from John Payne in DIY Boat Owner 2006-2 pg. 9 of the Ask the Experts section:

"Never, ever use a portable gasoline generator on your boat. These units are not intended for use in our near your boat's accommodation spaces and there are too many documented cases of carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning and fatalities occcuring from the use of these handy little power makers."

At the very least I would recommend that a CO detector be used when operating a portable generator. I know that CO poisoning degrades the brain's capacity to reason through the problem successfully.

Tom Metzger

10-20-2006, 12:59 AM

CaptnNero

10-20-2006, 02:18 AM

Neal - How much time can you save using AGMs if the alternator is limited to one 3/8" belt, which is what all of our engines are built for? Sounds like 70 - 80 amps to me. That works fine for flooded cells too. Doesn't sound too smart to pay 2-3 times as much for roughly the same charging time. :rolleyes:

Tom, I'm glad that you brought that up; that's what the research part is about. There are in fact even more AGM characteristics to consider other than faster charge times.

As far as the charge time benefit that depends what you mean by "roughly". On the 200 amp-hr bank the wet cell will accept at about 25% or 50 amps. The Lifeline AGMs I use will accept the whole 70-80 amps so there's a 40% to 60% improvement in charge time. To some that difference may sound roughly the same and to others it may mean something.

Speaking of charging, according to the USCG the risk of an AGM blowing up like a wet cell is considerably less (I apologize for not including a picture of the Hindenberg disaster here). I personally witnessed an automobile battery wet cell explosion and it was not a pretty sight with sulfuric acid sprayed over half of the engine compartment but fortunately not on the mechanic. As you know the batteries in our E34's are directly beneath the pillow end of the aft cabin. Sleep on it, or not. ;)

The benefits of AGMs go on and that is why I suggested to Rob to do his own research. That 2-3 fold price difference isn't just about increased charge acceptance. There are characteristics of AGMs which make them more resilient and maintenance free. In some circumstances those factors in a real world application can increase time to failure and thereby decrease cost of ownership.

I suggest that anyone who is considering AGMs consider all of the factors instead of the single factor that Tom just pointed out.

Just curious, does your Rolex give better time than my Timex? :devil:

Why Tom, is your Rolex giving you trouble ? I do know that my drugstore Casio watch works fine and though not an AGM it does not have a wet cell. ;)

If you still need to compare watch accuracy then right now on my Casio the big hand is on the 15 and the little hand is on the 5.

Howard Keiper

10-20-2006, 09:52 AM

You guys need to fall back a couple of yards and see where you've taken this thread. Preceived superiority of Rolex vs. Timex??? Even without a Galvanic Isolator???
howard keiper

CaptnNero

10-20-2006, 10:17 AM

You guys need to fall back a couple of yards and see where you've taken this thread. Preceived superiority of Rolex vs. Timex??? Even without a Galvanic Isolator???
howard keiper

Howard, please understand that timekeeping wasn't my idea. Plus the last time I checked I don't even have a Rolex unless someone like Tom sent me one.;)

The galvanic isolator is a sore spot with me since mine is the old style without a monitor which I do understand is no longer worthy.

Howard Keiper

10-20-2006, 10:55 AM

Please don't feel that way about your Isolator...It's functionality is the important thing, not whether it provides indicators that tell you if it's working. I guess the assumption is that if you know it's installed correctly, then it is (working). It might be a leap of faith but there are a lot of boats without one at all and no one will ever know the difference.
...just one of those things!

Definitely, definitely worthy!
howard keiper

CaptnNero

10-20-2006, 11:06 AM

John Butler

10-20-2006, 11:32 AM

The ABYC is reviewing the requirement for indicators on a GA, but the point is moot anyway since you can't buy them any other way that I'm aware of

I guess the assumption is that if you know it's installed correctly, then it is (working). It might be a leap of faith but there are a lot of boats without one at all and no one will ever know the difference.
...just one of those things!

I disagree with Howard. Monitoring is not all there is to the ABYC standard for a GI. A GI is part of the shore power ground system. This is not something you want to compromise. From my research last spring, not all GIs are equal. From a safety standpoint, it is important that an installed GI complies with ABYC. At least as of last spring, there were still GIs being sold that did not comply with ABYC (and don't assume a GI installed by a PO meets ABYC -- check it out)

Not having a GI (like Ted) is perfectly safe and all you have to do is keep the boat unplugged most of the time to protect against galvanic corrosion. Having a GI that is faulty is dangerous if it is not going to properly ground your shore power. That is one of the ways it can fail.

My $.02 -- I have no credentials to back this up, but I researched this issue last spring.

jkm

10-20-2006, 12:05 PM

Neal, Rob, Howard, John, Tom

Amazing information in this thread.

After getting a look at my icebox I'm going to completely envelope it in at least three inches of expanding foam.

Some difficulties in achieving this, but it can be done, mostly.

Going to start the disassembly Saturday

Will report in

John

Glyn Judson

10-20-2006, 12:23 PM

John and all, It might be of interest to you that the placement of the ice box in my E31 could have been a bit more well thought out. When on the occasion of my boat being out of the water, in the yard for periodic work and when the atmospheric conditions and air temperature are just right, I can actyally see a spot of condensation about the size of my open hand form on the outside of the hull right through the bottom paint where a corner of the ice box is in contact with the hull. The old Adler Barbour keeps it cold in there and as a result is the cause of the condensation in that small spot on the outside. This, to the observation that there's no way anyone could get three inches of expanding foam into that corner, much less for some diatance in any direction from there. Furthermore, I'd have to scar up (drill through)the pristine, vintage, fake-wood Formica outboard of the ice box in order to get any foam between the box and the hull. : - ( Glyn, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

Howard Keiper

10-20-2006, 12:45 PM

I tend to agree with John...except that my gut tells me that I'd feel really good about having a unit that was top of the line 5 yrs ago even if it doesn't have the new bells, whistles, and LEDs that todays models have. Technological evolution doesn't automatically damm a perfectly good device. In this case, the high quality GI bought some years ago, given that it was manufactured by a reputable company, was considered to be state of the art. Some GIs made today are marketed 'with capacitor'...probably a good thing(?), but jury's out on that one.
howard

Tom Metzger

10-20-2006, 02:07 PM

Howard - The originator of this thread didn't give a damn about where the thread went, if you remember. He is sticking to abusing his batteries after picking everyone's brain for a few daze.

In the meantime there have been people spreading questionable info with a religious fervor.

Rob, since it sounds like reducing charge time away from the dock is desirable you might want to research the AGM batteries. They will reduce your charge times but at 2-3 times more cost.

And the story changes:

I'm glad that you brought that up; that's what the research part is about. There are in fact even more AGM characteristics to consider other than faster charge times.

As a point of fact, I put 70 amps into two grp 27 flooded cells without breaking a sweat. Deep cycle flooded cells will accept 35-40% of the nameplate rating. Do your research, as the man says.

Compared to the risks of driving, sailing, or crossing a street, the dangers of a lead lead acid battery are insignificant. To make one explode takes some effort, like shorting the battery terminals with the caps off. It's not easy to come up with a 4% concentration along with a spark.

There are some advantages in using AGM batteries, but the majority of us will not take advantage of them. Boats are designed with battery boxes low and upright. Alternators that can barely charge flooded cell batteries.

If you have a reason that AGM batteries have an advantage for you, by all means buy AGMs. Just don't rush into it because someone else "has done the research" for you.

Enough said.

BTW, Defender sells a 50 Amp galvanic isolator without monitoring for about $95.

NateHanson

10-20-2006, 02:13 PM

Too much drama.

This has been an informative thread, but can we leave the egos out of it?

Different people have different opinions, and they're all helpful in forming our own conclusions. That's what makes it a "discussion forum".

I'm involved with another very large forum, as a moderator, and by comparison I've always been impressed at how civil and well behaved this board is. So the odd thread where there's a personality clash becomes particularly glaring against the backdrop of such pleasant conversations.

My 2c (certainly off-topic)

Nate

John Butler

10-20-2006, 02:57 PM

BTW, Defender sells a 50 Amp galvanic isolator without monitoring for about $95.
That would be the Yandina. It also does not have a capacitor. Yandina explains the capacitor issue on their web site, describe a test to see if you need one (it's not a safety issue, but you might not get good galvanic corrosion protection without it), and offer one for sale to install with their GI:
http://www.yandina.com/GIsolCap.html

CaptnNero

10-20-2006, 04:19 PM

...
As a point of fact, I put 70 amps into two grp 27 flooded cells without breaking a sweat. Deep cycle flooded cells will accept 35-40% of the nameplate rating. Do your research, as the man says.

...

If you have a reason that AGM batteries have an advantage for you, by all means buy AGMs. Just don't rush into it because someone else "has done the research" for you.

I don't doubt that 35-40% claim one bit. At the same time the specific manufacturer Trojan recommends charging at only 10-13% of their amp-hr rating for their flooded cells. Others claim otherwise. The 25% figure I used has some common acceptance for flooded cells also. YMMV. That is why I advocate researching it seriously, and by that I mean for your own individual needs. I originally suggested only considering AGM technology, which I certainly did not intend to be done in a rush. In the end one needs to weigh the benefits as it applies to oneself and make a value judgement.

After all of this traffic Tom, I think that in significant ways we are after all on the same page, and maybe someday we will be on the same pond as you can imagine.

Shadowfax

10-20-2006, 05:00 PM

Neal,

Tom has been seen sailing on the Chesapeake. Get him to tell you what he use to do for a living before retiring. He drinks too.

jkm

10-20-2006, 09:25 PM

Howard

I ended using your method for installing expanding foam-very neat and not intrusive.

I put three cans behind the box and tomorrow may complete the job. One can went thru the inside of the bank of draws-very clean.

To remind all, especially Neal, I insulated the inside of my box with Aluminix. I have two layers on the bottom with a 1" airspace between the two layers.

I'm quite enthusiastic that emulating Howard is going to work. I still can't escape his cooler that he installed-brilliant job.

John

CaptnNero

10-20-2006, 10:30 PM

...
To remind all, especially Neal, I insulated the inside of my box with Aluminix. I have two layers on the bottom with a 1" airspace between the two layers.
...

John, when you gave that positive report last summer I went right ahead and used the Reflectix on mine. It only took about a half hour with a measuring tape and scissors to make a well fitting inner liner. Thanks for the feedback. We've found that the surface is tough enough to survive the weekend food shuffling, at least for the half season that we used it.

Howard Keiper

10-20-2006, 10:49 PM

Aww shucks, John, 'twarnt nuthin.

i have to admit, I like the way it turned out.

Thanks for the kudos

howard

rwthomas1

10-22-2006, 09:21 PM

Rob, since it sounds like reducing charge time away from the dock is desirable you might want to research the AGM batteries. They will reduce your charge times but at 2-3 times more cost. On the other hand if the diesel is used to charge them the engine will have less of that undesirable low load hours.

Concerning using that little Honda on deck I'll pass along a quote from John Payne in DIY Boat Owner 2006-2 pg. 9 of the Ask the Experts section:

"Never, ever use a portable gasoline generator on your boat. These units are not intended for use in our near your boat's accommodation spaces and there are too many documented cases of carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning and fatalities occcuring from the use of these handy little power makers."

At the very least I would recommend that a CO detector be used when operating a portable generator. I know that CO poisoning degrades the brain's capacity to reason through the problem successfully.

Given that my brain possibly already has a "degraded capacity for reasoning" I have TWO CO detectors onboard. Recently one went on the fritz, it was going off when I got to the boat one afternoon. No CO source operating for a week..... The other was fine.

I always get a kick out of the "Never, ever use..." statements. As an informed adult who understands the risks and takes precautions, it is my decision to accept the risk if I choose. I understand the issues and only run the generator setup "just so" to avoid problems. I also do not spend time in the cabin while it is running. The Honda was the best bang for the buck compared to solar or windcharging. I am never at a dock long enough to charge with shore power. The little Honda has been great for keeping the batteries topped off and I can use it for other things.

I looked into AGM's and while they are great for certain applications I don't want them. I am that anal retentive person who religiously checks electrolyte levels, cleans the terminals, the cases and maintains a well-charged house bank. My "gauge" on batteries is how many discharge cycles they will provide. AGM's provide no advantage here. Most marine batteries will only provide 300-350 discharge cycles before crapping out. 6volt golf cart batteries will provide up to 700 discharge cycles. Properly cared for they should easily outlast any marine battery. That is important to me. RT

jkm

10-23-2006, 12:02 AM

All

I contacted the Trojan Battery company on Friday and the tech I spoke with dismissed the concept that a deep cycle marine battery suffers any long term damage if it is drained down to zip.

I then went to a Ship's Store and was told the same story regarding the 4D batteries.

Is this a sales pitch???

John

PS
My icebox is so insulated, I inserted five cans of expanding foam around it.

Howard's method of inserting the foam worked the best.

Tom Metzger

10-23-2006, 12:33 AM

Trojan says in writing:

Discharging batteries is entirely a function of your particular application. However, below is list of helpful items:

1. Shallow discharges will result in a longer battery life.

2. 50% (or less) discharges are recommended.

3. 80% discharge is the maximum safe discharge.

4. Do not fully discharge flooded batteries (80% or more). This will damage (or kill) the battery.

5. Many experts recommend operating batteries only between the 50% to 85% of full charge range. A periodic equalization charge is a must when using this practice.

http://www.trojan-battery.com/Tech-Support/BatteryMaintenance/Discharging.aspx

CaptnNero

10-23-2006, 02:07 AM

Given that my brain possibly already has a "degraded capacity for reasoning" I have TWO CO detectors onboard. Recently one went on the fritz, it was going off when I got to the boat one afternoon. No CO source operating for a week..... The other was fine.

Sometimes they'll find people in a CO poisoned house from a faulty heating system or a car left running in the garage. For the ones that survive the conscious ones are typically unaware of a problem other than having a nasty headache.

I always get a kick out of the "Never, ever use..." statements. As an informed adult who understands the risks and takes precautions, it is my decision to accept the risk if I choose....

As long as one understands the risks and properly manages the risks there can be a good result. I've got a one of those little Honda's myself but haven't used it on the boat, though I may use it some on long cruising vacations. I think I mentioned in another thread that a propane conversation kit is available for it. I understand that propane as fuel will produce a difference in the exhaust components so that needs to be researched also. In the end I expect the same measures to manage the risks since it's still an internal combustion engine.

I looked into AGM's and while they are great for certain applications I don't want them. I am that anal retentive person who religiously checks electrolyte levels, cleans the terminals, the cases and maintains a well-charged house bank.

Between the boat, the rv, the cars, and the lawn tractor I decided I was doing too much battery maintenance, let alone other maintenance. Plus I liked the lower self discharge rates for idle, off charger equipment; I just don't need to charge and check those AGM batteries as much in the idle months now. So now only the cars need much attention and as you'd expect they are the only ones that get year round use and frequent charging.

My "gauge" on batteries is how many discharge cycles they will provide. AGM's provide no advantage here. Most marine batteries will only provide 300-350 discharge cycles before crapping out. 6volt golf cart batteries will provide up to 700 discharge cycles. Properly cared for they should easily outlast any marine battery. That is important to me. RT
I know what you mean. I ended up with 6volt AGMs but I did come close to getting the flooded 6volt ones first. With the 6volt I also like that they are still a manageable weight with good energy density for one person installation compared to the 4 and 8 D's. Last summer I helped a friend with a Nauticat replace some 4D and 8D batteries. Believe me, we had to work very carefully between the boat and pier.

Because of the slightly taller 6volt batteries and the limited depth for the batteries under the aft berth in the E34, it worked out better to install the 6volt AGMs on their sides without having to raise the bed height or lower the bottom of the battery box. However I did need to rebuild the battery box without violating the ABYC specs on distance from the fuel tank aft of the batteries.