E34 Stbd lazarette major project

[cawinter]

Keywords: Water Heater; E34; Holding Tank; Wall;

I am biting the bullet! After an oh-so-faint new odor from underneath the engine (the nasty kind) and some 'ponding' just behind the muffler I embarked on the project that many of the E34 crowd have discussed: the wall!

My water heater (ATWOOD/SEAWARD) rusted through last season, and I had been unable to remove due to the holding tank hoses just above it. Now the holding tank pump-out fitting developed a crack and I am finding contents migrating underneath the pan into a compartment (inaccessible, of course) underneath the shaft/stuffing box area. My vent hoses had no connection anymore, and, at the end of the day, I was just very curious as to what was behind the 'wall' in the stbd lazarette. If it IS broke, finally an excuse to fix it!

After removing 3-4 tie-down pieces of wood and the coolant surge tank and sawing off the holding tank hoses and capping them (!) the holding tank (almost empty) was easy to remove through the hatch. About 25 unwieldy pounds. Biggest problem was not to spill the residual contents. I failed. All hoses were at the end of their life. The vinyl wrapping was coming off nearly everywhere, and the vinyl-reinfoced vent hose was very gummy. Picture 1 shows the result. Between the tank and the water heater was a piece of veneer plywood which had badly rotted away at the bottom. The tank (Ronco Plastics B187) is still available for about $170 + extras. I have some thoughts about different fittings etc. There is another thread from Glen (?) on the Ronco operation somewhere.

After removing both coolant hoses from the water heater and keeping them high (minimal spillage) and disconnecting the power cable (I had already short-circuited the in/out water hoses last year) I removed the four tie-down screws w/ finishing washers. All badly corroded, along with the base of the heater. Extraction of the empty unit was easy. Spillage was nill. Picture 2 shows the now empty space. The heater sat on a fiberglass frame. Very nice and usable for other things.

The wall has three (3) #10 screws behind where the holding tank was, and it is now clear that, unless you can remove the tank or move it 'up' by many inches, you will not be able to access them. I removed all screws, and the wall came out fine, too. I can see how Tom did his work on the fuel hose. It does bend rather sharply just at the end of the wall towards the fuel tank to port. Pictures 3/4 show the behind-the-wall area fwd and aft My fuel hose looks fine but I am still pondering. The vent hoses were totally shot, torn in at least four places and I just cut them out. The nice blower deserves better. They wil be replaced with a single Al hose to extract heat from the engine room (as discussed elsewhere). I generally found all wiring from the factory was 'ok' but not pretty. The previous owner must have thrown in his own wiring here and there (non-marine), and they are obvious candidates for replacement.

I have a few more things I want to assess/check/replace in this space, now that everything is open. Then I want to Precote/Bilgecoat the area before installing the new stuff. More updates coming...

BTW, I do not endorse nor do I have commercial interests in any brand mentioned here or the Lysol line of products.;)

[tramp]

Chris,

I also have an E34 (1990 vintage) and have been in the starboard coffin a few times. First my muffler developed a leak, only under pressure, and I replaced it. This was interesting since you can't even see it to replace it. Next was the water heater. My dock mates saw me when I was finished and I looked like I was wrestling with sharks. Seems like there is nothing but sharp edges in the "coffin". I suppose the holding tank hoses will be next, nasty thought. Being 6 foot and 200 lbs. doing maintenance in the coffin is not something I look forward to. I still have the original black sanitary hoses installed, guess I need to give it some attention BEFORE it lets me know. Please post new photos of your progress.

Dave

[CaptnNero]

Chris, thanks for the details about the wall that Tom M. advised us about. I'll be working in there this winter.

[cawinter]

Neal,

I'm facing some tough decisions as to the the proactive part of this exercise. With Tom's story, I am tempted to replace the fuel hose. Then again, it doesn't look too bad. The exhaust hose is solid, and the muffler looks good, too. Then again...

I am not replacing the water heater, thus saving $500 or so and simplifying my plumbing. Cold water is better for crew morale anyway. :nonono:
The pedestal might instead come in handy for the starting battery setup.

What I might consider is changing the wall so that it can be taken out without tank removal. On the other hand, it is really a space issue: with the tank installed one can't access anything behind it (muffler, etc.) lending more weight to the 'proactive' part of this work.

BTW, the holding tank price has gone up to $204 plus extras. Maybe they read this posting... I saw a picture of Tom's tank, and it could be that he has a different tank #? Sealand might have a better basic tank but I am afraid to even try to provide them with measurements. This tank is just too skewed.

I'll keep the posts and pictures coming...

[CaptnNero]

...Cold water is better for crew morale anyway. :nonono:


I've heard that it's best to continue beatings until morale improves. ;)


...On the other hand, it is really a space issue: with the tank installed one can't access anything behind it (muffler, etc.) lending more weight to the 'proactive' part of this work.
...

I suppose that when I get in there I should be checking out the muffler and exhaust hose condition also.

[Sean Engle]

...I am not replacing the water heater, thus saving $500 or so and simplifying my plumbing. Cold water is better for crew morale anyway. :nonono: ...

I would reconsider this...considering what it might do to your re-sale value... My $0.02...

//sse

[escapade]

Chris
Thanks for the photo's. Amazing how much they could cram in a small area. I replaced the vent hose this past summer. As was yours, mine was "gummy", brittle & plugged. Being 6'1"& WELL beyond 200 lbs. I feel your pain being in the "coffin". Had to hold the hatch open just to change my mind! I'm hopeing my tank holds out for a while yet but the HW heater is real suspect. Not looking forward to any of these projects but sure is nice to have an idea what you will face when you do. Keep the pic's coming.
Have fun & sail fast
Bud "Escapade" E34 88 #265:cheers:

[CaptnNero]

I would reconsider this...considering what it might do to your re-sale value... My $0.02...

//sse

The resale value is actually a lesser problem. The bigger problem in brokerage is that many people don't even make an offer, so it tends to stay on the market much longer. Otherwise they will factor in the cost of installing a new tank.

[CaptnNero]

For the fuel fill hose, what about putting an elbow in instead of making the tight bend around the wall ?

[Tom Metzger]

On the fuel fill hose a copper "U" would be a big improvement for the life of the hose. I spent several seconds thinking about it, but with the nearest plumbing supply company over the mountain it didn't look like a reasonable option with the time constraints I had. The second thought on it was that the first hose lasted seventeen years. No one is betting much that I will out last the new hose. :esad:

I would agree that a hot water tank will give a good return on your investment. This is particularly true if you are going to use the space for something else. Hot water was a must for the admiral when replacing the previous boat. Changing it out was not a bad job as Seaward makes the same tank ($200@ Defender - galvanized as I am in fresh water). I put my grp 24 starting battery above and outboard of the water heater on a shelf built for a CNG tank that I had removed. Not the best location, but it works. I have a "maintenance free" battery as checking water level could be a problem.

I'll replace the head to holding tank hose in the spring. I have disconnected the pump and direct discharge hoses to stay legal on the lake. No need to get to the gazouta hoses because if they stink it will remind me to stay out of the sail locker. :cheers:

[CaptnNero]

...I put my grp 24 starting battery above and outboard of the water heater on a shelf built for a CNG tank that I had removed. Not the best location, but it works. I have a "maintenance free" battery as checking water level could be a problem. ...

Tom, FWIW, Kokomo's PO installed the starting battery above and inboard of the hot water tank. The wall top made a good support for the battery shelf with a bracing strip to the left of it along the aft cabin wall. I put in a maintenance free battery to avoid the checking issue too.

[cawinter]

I have to confess that, completely opposite to Tom's feelings about the lazarette, I have really 'moved in'. It may sound sick (:rolleyes: ) but the space is just amazing. last night I spent about 30 minutes, back against the outboard wall, legs up on the water heater pedestal, just meditating about all the projects that could be started (beyond what I have already inflicted on myself). To remove any doubt, I am 6'3" but quite narrow in the beam.

The copper elbow sounds interesting even though I have my doubts about the ABYC position on that.

Last night (after my real job and before meditation) I wired up the LINK10 cable (finally) and cleaned up the speaker, bilge pump and charger cables. Looks 'pretty' now. The old RM20 will definitely go, and a TC20 is on its way. Didn't want to spring for the XC. Vent hoses are still outstanding but the plan is finished.

If there is a good thing about the winter in the NE, it is that we now have a bit more time to think. I am planning on prepping everything, painting and putting the new hoses in (Sealand Odorsafe, just like I recently did on the Whale overboard line). Having verified the tank availability I will postpone that installation until the spring. The fuel hose and water heater are still options I want to ponder. The INDEL heaters look nice but a little too big, and putting the 'old' ATWOOD back in is somehow not appealing. Then again, on spacers, separated from any moisture/condensation below, the design would be a lot more resilient...

I'll keep you posted with pictures.

[Loren Beach]

http://www.atlantic-marine.com/Tseries.htm

I put in a small SS Atlantic brand tank when I replaced the corroded-out factory tank in our '88 boat. The original factory one had an aluminum inner tank and was accumulating a lot of white gritty oxides as well. The old outer shell was mild steel with a thin layer of paint... and rust...
:rolleyes:

This might be something to look into when you replace your original tank.
(Illustration borrowed from their web site.)
Loren

[CaptnNero]

I have to confess that, completely opposite to Tom's feelings about the lazarette, I have really 'moved in'. It may sound sick ( ) but the space is just amazing. last night I spent about 30 minutes, back against the outboard wall, legs up on the water heater pedestal, just meditating about all the projects that could be started (beyond what I have already inflicted on myself). To remove any doubt, I am 6'3" but quite narrow in the beam.


Chris, at least now we know where to find you. ;)

[kevin81]

Chris:
I too, have a E34 (1989) and know the time is coming to replace the water heater and/or the holding tank. I have tried to not think about it as it WILL be a major project. Thanks for the info so far and look forward to hearing about the progress and pictures.

I too am over 6' and well over 200 lbs. - and have done some work in that compartment. Needless to say I had sore muscles for a few days.
Kevin
E34 - 1989
s/v Serenidad

[cawinter]

Thanks for all the statements of sympathy. I am busily working away with the usual mundane real-life constraints. The wiring is almost done and painting has started. Rest asured, I'll be posting a few more pictures when they are not too embarrassing...

Needless to say, this did open up a whole can of other issues. Some of the wiring from the switch had not been well supprted and protected and must have gotten in touch with the muffler/exhaust hose (that at some point must have been HOT...). Upon moving the battery sense wires one of them shorted out (unprotected!) and started smoking. Since I don't have plumbing and hot water anyway I decided to also rip put the entire 1-2-ALL switch assembly with all immediate cables. Who needs electrical anyway.:) Plan is to now also redo all the primary wiring to the switch and ground point along with the Link10 and an option for a starting battery in the (current war zone) stbd lazarette. Everything will be fused within a few inches at a new small distribution panel, and I'll even include a BlueSea ?Amp breaker for the #4(?) red wire going to the main DC distribution panel.

The only thing that I have not yet ripped into is the fuel fill hose but with Tom's note fresh on my mind I might as well go all the way in terms of destruction...

Is it snowing yet?:boohoo:

[Tom Metzger]

Chris - I'm a little confused. How is the battery switch tied into the sail locker? Have you, perhaps been spending too much time in the hole? :D

My records indicate that the switch to panel wires are #4.

As a point of interest, I think that my hot water tank support is boxed in rather than open as yours is. Of course, my boat, #234, is much older than yours.

[cawinter]

Tom,
Not at all. I love the area. You should see all the space I have there...:cool:

The logical connection are the old charger wires that come from the lazarette and that had been badly supported above the shaft and poorly led to the switch behind the double wall. They must have been wrapped around the sensing wires and something chafed as I was pulling in the new bundles (w/ Link 10 cable etc.). Long story but let's summarize by saying the one of my extinguishers is now empty...:mad: and the charger wire and the sensing wire are now fused.

being somewhat of a purist, I therefore ripped out everything that has anything to do with the problem, and the new wiring is already in place.

I feel that I am working on the central nervous system of the boat...

[Shadowfax]

I feel that I am working on the central nervous system of the boat...[/QUOTE]

You are. Have fun

[cawinter]

A terrible start to the year. Slow start and oh so many projects.:boohoo:

Just ordered a new RONCO PLASTICS holding tank B187 in black. I took the 3" spin-welded inspection plate (4" is screwed in), moved the 'in' fitting to the far outboard side in the front and the single 'out' fitting to the far inboard aft corner on the top. I had them put in the standpipe (aka diptube) for this. No fittings on the bottom anymore and shorter hose runs. Also, I will avoid putting the hoses over the (not present) water heater. This way I can retro-fit with whatever later on. Standard 3/4" vent fitting. I do believe the old one was 1/2". This way I get a bit more air into the soup. I will go w/ the Odorsafe Sealand (?) hose. My first installation of the hose w/ a new Whale pumpout pump looks great. Price is high but I figure I take the best for the good stuff.:rolleyes:

Total cost w/ shipping $360 and about 15 days to get to lovely New Jersey. Sheila was very helpful. I had made a jpg file with the old tank and designs for the new one. Worked great.

[cawinter]

Just for completeness sake! I am all done with the stbd sail locker. After pulling out the rusted water heater (no problem) and the cracked holding tank w/ hoses (deep breath!) I had pulled the wall out. I repainted the entire space w/ gray and white Bilgecoat (love that stuff!). Vent hose was replaced w/ 3" Al rigid hose. All other hoses (see Tom's emails on that) were visually checked and ok. That was excellent! As I am painting away I suddenly sense smoke coming out from underneath the muffler. Darting out into the aft cabin I find two wires from the charger to the batteries aglow (just inside the fuses; PO installation; I wanted to change for a long time...). A fire extinguisher later I had my plate full! Ripped out all primary wiring going to the switch, installed a breaker for the #4 wires to the panel on the bulkhead right next to the switch (plenty of room behind just need small hands :nerd:), installed the Link10 shunt inside the 'drive compartment' above the shaft (w/ appropriate small terminal strip; looks nice). I also took the opportunity to take out the old charger and put in a TC20. Very nice addition. Provisions for a solar charger are there, I just need to find a way to switch off and not have more live wires when I am not on board.

ROnco made a nice replacement tank w/ different fittings (great), and I replumbed everything w/ Odorsafe (expensive) hose. Even included a y-valve not to suck against the Whale pump. Ducting is much better than before, and I recommend the new hose runs. Attached is a picture FYI. Good project overall! Since we were also redoing a bunch of other things after the storm last year I had time... Dangriga went in on 7/13 (Friday) at 1313. Just wanted to make sure! ;)

[Shadowfax]

Chris,
Nice job. Did you do away with the CNG and go propane? Also, do you have refrigeration? If so where did you mount the condenser?

[cawinter]

Paul,

LPG is still in the port aft locker. No plans to go CNG. No refrigeration other than ice blocks in the box. I don't go to far-away places where there isn't ice to be found. Keeps it simple. The water heater is also gone. I decided not to replace (builds character and immune system response) but I left all the hoses in place for future reconsideration. They are so tucked in that it would have been too much work to pull out. I found a short moulded hose (3/8" ID, I believe) to short-circuit the coolant loop. I like simple and this went in the right direction. The thing I really like now is the fact that my tank doesdn't have any fittings on the bottom anymore (original had 2). The standpipe arrangement is very clean and even easy to disassemble with minimal hose loss if it ever came to that. The other problem that I solved was that my old plumbing hoses blocked the water heater (Tom and I exchanged pics on that one. Now the access to the shelf is unobstructed. I was thinking of putting a starter battery there but that is not going to happen until next year. I'm done with the hard work! (BTW, the rest? New pulpit, new rubrails, restore cove stripe, gelcoat damage...in addition to the fire nonsense, the LINK10, the breaker... It required the spirit of the Vikings to keep going! ;)