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Rig Tune

jgarmin098

Member II
Rig Tune/Problem with new Main

I purchased a new main and 110 for my '88 32-3 this spring. The main has, according to the sailmaker (Doyle), a pre-bend wrinkle in it. The wrinkle runs downward and aft from the point where the luff and second batten (full batten) intersect. His recommended solution was to put shims on the forward side of the partners, put ALL the tension the aft lowers and only minimal tension the forward lowers. All of which tends to remove all pre-bend from the rig. This solution still does not always remove that wrinkle, especially going upwind. Overall I am just not pleased with the cut of this sail...

Does anyone have any ideas? Should I insist on having the sail recut? Is it even possible to recut a sail built with "Cruising Laminate"?
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
Needs to be sorted out

Sounds like they did not put enough luff curve in the new mainsail. Having said that, as long as you can tune the mast so that the sail looks good (no overbend wrinkle-that is the proper term), and you have not put so much load on the aft lowers that the mast has REVERSE bend in it-meaning it is still straight-then it is acceptable.

I am a bit concerned about this, though, so please contact me by email off-site so we can discuss in detail-

Best,
S
 

jgarmin098

Member II
The mast is straight, no reverse bend.

This past weekend, I was sailing hard on the wind with 18 knots apparent. The overbend wrinkle was still there and I could not flatten (depower) the sail with backstay tension. With the 110 I was on the edge of overpowered. It was quite frustrating considering the amount I plunked down for two new sails.
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
I have Doyle's that came with the boat and I love them. That said, if I had paid good money and the sail weren't right I would be in Doyles office making one heck of a stink about it. They should make it right even if it means making a new sail. RT
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
That is correct

Even the best sailmaker can make a mistake-the real issue is what they are prepared to do about it. In some cases (like this one, I suspect), the problem can be corrected with a recut, and in some cases it cannot. My advice is to give the sailmaker the chance to correct the problem howeveer he sees fit, BUT, when it is done, if you are not satisfied, you must let them know that it is not acceptable.

Most Doyle lofts should be very good about this, so you should not be too concerned as of now.

It does sound as if there is not enough luff curve built into the sail. Whatever it is, from what you describe, it is not correct, and sails are expensive-you are entitled to be happy with your purchase-and this is from a "recovering" sailmaker!!

Good luck!

S
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
I have a relatively new Doyle main (2 + 2 - dacron) and this is the first I have heard about a "pre-bend wrinkle". I found my loft to be very accommodating (City Island, NY). When I read on this site that loose footed mains were more desirable, I took mine back to be switched and, much to my surprise, was not charged for the alteration.
 
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jgarmin098

Member II
Geoff Johnson said:
I have a relatively new Doyle main (2 + 2 - dacron) and this is the first I have heard about a "pre-bend wrinkle".

Just curious. I also have the 2 + 2 only it's in cruising laminate. My top batten hits the back stay. The old one did not. Already I have lost the tell tale on that batten and another one at the bottom batten. Does your main hit the back stay?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
It would be better to have the sailmaker's side of the story, but...
My take on it is:
Regarding the batten(s) hitting the backstay, this should have been discussed at the design point. This and the general shape and amount of mast bend and just about everything else :) was talked about back 'n' forth for our new dacron main before it was built.
(I went with UKSails NW, because I have some history with them and because I get along so well with the loft mgr over the years. I would expect the same level of communication with any loft, however.)

I do not at all want to "take sides" in this matter, but if forced to choose, I would first want to see the actual build order and even then still be inclined to favor the side of the owner paying the bill. It sounds like quite a significant amount of coin, too.

Way back in olden times, I was a rep for a sail loft, and communication with the customer was THE most important part of the sale. When my loft made an error, they immediately fixed it, whatever it took.

Strictly in the "FWIW dept" I know that all big loft organizations have a small number of sails on hand that, for whatever reason, they had to eat. Hey, this could even become one of those! :rolleyes:
They are willing to make some great deals on those, within the limits of a modest recut, to move them out. I have a friend that got a great hi performance main for his OOD 34 this way.

In this global-economy age of centralized sail cutting and/or finishing, mistakes are harder to "fix", IMHO. It is often just easier to just "do over."

Like I implied at the start, there's no way to judge this particular situation from up here in the peanut gallery. From the the initial description, it does sound like the loft in question has some re-work to do. Their reputation is being damaged --- and old fashioned "word of mouth" in this electronic age on forums like this is really one of their main ad venues, for good or ill.

Cheers,
Loren in PDX

ps: in my next life, as a rich person, I want Seth to design my sails -- out of carbon, kevlar, and unobtainium!
 
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Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
You get what you pay for, I suppose. In the case of my Dolye main I ordered it by the make and model of the boat. I got the impression it was made in Florida, but it may have come from offshore. Anyway, it's a nice sail. In contrast, for my TapeDrive genoa, UK measured the boat and then came to the boat to hoist the finished sail. Of course, the UK sail cost two and a half times as much as the Doyle. My one other experience with Doyle was a dacron Quicksilver II genoa (the sail replaced by the TapeDrive). That too was made without measuring the boat and when it arrived, it was a no name sail (no Doyle label) because the Doyle loft (not the one where I got the main), in the meantime, had been sold and the sail was sent to Maine for construction by a local loft. So it would seem that what you get is really a function of what's going on with the Doyle local franchise, if that is what it is. I am sure Seth can shed some more light on it.
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
yes again

Geoff is right-this is not limited to the Doyle organization-because of how competitive sail pricing has become, all of the major lofts have the option of building a sail using an offshore production facility. These are less expensive, and as a result are not the same thing as having your sailmaker come down and measure the boat, and building it locally.

While it is always preferable to have the boat measured (even production boats), sometimes it is not possible. My suggestion is that if you cannot have this done, and regardless of how or where you buy the sail, and no matter what the sailmaker says about having the dimensions in his database, you will be much better off having him/her email or fax you the measurement form, and take/confirm some of the key dimensions: max hoist, drum height off deck, track length and location, and for the mainsail, P,E, tack set back, tack cut up (this is the offset allowance for your gooseneck fitting), and mast bend. This will go a long way to getting a sail that fits the boat and fits the mast bend you will be using.

If you can give the distance from the back of the mast to the backstay and a masthead crane length, you can have more precision and choice as to whether the leech will hit the backstay...
JGarmin:The top batten hitting the backstay is natural. This is because you chose a better performing fabric and batten configuration than the original dacron with short battens, and as a result, the sailmaker was able to make the roach full size. And when the roach (also known as upper girths) is maximum, for most boats this means some overlap of the backstay. This is exactly what you want if you want a full size sail, and the only potential issue is that it might hang up when tacking or gybing in light air. A tug on the backstay will clear it. There are no real chafe problems. Older dacron sails with short battens could not support the full roach without becoming distorted over time, so the solution was to reduce the roach from maximum.
If for some reason you do NOT want it to overlap the backstay, you must let your sailmaker know. Most of the time, if you order a main with a high end fabric, the assumption will be that you want the biggest sail you can have.

Hope this helps,

S
 

jgarmin098

Member II
Looking at the sail after it was installed, I kinda figured the sailmaker ASSUMED max roach even though that was never discussed when I placed the order. The main point I made when I placed the order was that the old (original) main had way too much draft (blown out, whatever...) and that I had sailed on a friend's boat (E-32-200, mine is a 32-3 same year) that just had a new main made by the same loft (only then it was Banks) and I was shocked at how much better the boat stood up in a blow (much less heel than my boat) and my friend was sailing with an old (original 110 jib). My point was that I needed to be able to beat to Newport Saturday afternoon in the usual 15 to 20 knots of apparent we get on Narragansett Bay. Now, if that meant to the sailmaker, "give me the biggest mainsail you can" then so be it. I am not going to hold him responsible for that.

What I am going to hold him responsible for is that damned pre-bend, inversion, whatever the hell it's called wrinkle. I tried it again this past weekend in 15 knots true and it's still there )not withstanding the adjustment he made to the location of the second batten car). (Truth be known, I can NEARLY eliminate the wrinkle by putting excessive halyard tension on thereby moving the draft WAY forward. Sure the wrinkle is minimized but the sail just looks wrong when I do that.)

So far the loft manager is being cooperative and trying to find a solution. I hope that does not cease before the final solution is found...
 

saildog

Junior Member
You failed to mention that the friends 32-200 (mine) is pulling a 10 foot inflatable with a 8 horse four stroke.

I think your next step is to state to the loft that you are not happy with the sail and want a new one or your money back. Spending the cash you did you should be happy with your purchase and be out sailing.

Newport Friday night? Race ya....
 

jgarmin098

Member II
Hey SailDog! You want to borrow my old second batten (the one my sailmaker replaced with a tapered version so as to eliminate the inversion wrinkle...) to replace the one that fell out of your Banks main...?
 

jgarmin098

Member II
Hey, I offered to pour a tot of rum into that cup of warm water...

So as it stands now, the sailmaker knows I am not satisfied with the main (inversion wrinkle) and with the 110 jib (too much draft, maximized for 10 knots and not the 15 to 20 I requested. And who the heck buys a 110 for use in 10 knots of breeze...?). He will take them back next week to make adjustments. Just what those adjustments are I do not know for sure. In the case of the jib, I beleive he is going to reduce the draft by, I think, reducing the luff curve. With regard to the main, I have no idea but it sounds like some sort of recutting will be done.

And here I go back to my original complaint: The wrinkle is in the mid section of the main. The portion from second batten to head looks great. The portion from the second reef to the foot looks fine. The portion in between looks too full and has that damned wrinkle. I say tear out the midsection and replace it with a properly cut version.

I guess if it were that easy, he'd have done it already...
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Not far off

Actually, tearing out a middle section of sail and replacing it IS possible, BUT it IS major surgery. Sometimes it is the only solution, but in your case, I bet some recutting (which might include a luff curve adustment an/or some reshaping of the seams) is a better choice. There is a risk when you replace a section of a sail with new cloth that the stretch rates will no longer be consistent-the new section may behave differently than the rest of the sail-which could create other problems. Even though he may use the same fabric designation, if it comes from a different lot than the original, there might be some differences....If the sail is pretty new, the chance is that reshaping the existing material will produce the best result.

Actually, if he is not successful after 2 attempts, you should ask for a new sail. That is fair to both of you, and not something a reputable sailmaker should have a issue with..
S
 

jgarmin098

Member II
By two attempts, do you mean: attempt one - replace second full batten with tapered version; attempt two - move second batten car forward on luff?

Or do those attempts not count and I should begin counting when he takes the sails back to the loft for adjustments? In other words, I let him take the sails back to the loft twice and if the problem still persists I then ask for a refund or a new sail?

(This is so frustrating. Last season I kept thinking, "If I just had a new set of sails, the boat would perform better, heel less, and scare my wife less." Now that I have new sails, the boat performs worse, heels more and scares hell out of my wife.)
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
I hear you

I know it is frustrating, and I feel for you.

I did mean to give him 2 attempts at the loft (the others could be considered "normal" final fitting issues).

I realize this is ruining the whole sail buying experience, but it is important to remember what is most important: to get the sails right. Having to go through this and ending up with them right is better than going through it and not getting them right, or having them be wrong and not doing anything about it...

You are unfortunately in that small percent that ends up with a sail that needs tweaking, and sadly it DOES happen.

All I can say is to stay with it-do NOT let the sailmaker off the hook. If you feel it is getting out of hand (he/she has become on responsive or is putting you off), you should contact Doyle Marblehead (Attn: Robbie Doyle). If push comes to shove, he will intervene and make sure you end up with what you paid for.....

Best of luck,

Seth
 
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