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Small jib for heavy wind?

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Hello All,
I went for a little cruise today on my E38. When I dropped the mooring pennant it was blowing 16-18knots. By the time I got outside the harbor it was blowing 23-25knots. Half and hour later in the East Passage its blowing 25 constant with gusts to 30knots. I never even bothered with the Genoa, at 130% even rolled up would have been too much. I just sailed on the main reefed to the first reef point. Weather like this is common in the spring here in NE. Can anyone recommend the appropriately sized jib for these conditions? I am thinking a 90% jib from a fairly heavy cloth? Thanks, RT
 

Bob in Va

Member III
That's a lot more boat than I am used to sailing, but I would suggest you think about having the sail cut with a high clew for good visibility in those conditions. Wish I could join you off Goddard Park, as I have many good memories of some teenage years spent in that area a half-century ago.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
About right

For routine sailing in 25+ knots, a 90-100% jib will do the job, and make life much more comfortable. Reaching and running you could stand a bit more sail, but for cruising, the jib and full main should be perfect in the 18-25 ihs range,then throw in a reef-you should be comfy with this set up to the low 30's upwind, low 40s reaching and running. If you go with a dacron sail, there are some very good 9.25 oz. and-9.55 fabric available, and this is the weight range required for long life and good performance.

Clew height: (Bob...) will take care of itself because the tracks are not overly long.

Yes, a higher clew on hvy air jibs is nice for visibility, but does NOT perform as well upwind as a lower clewed jib-so these make for better reaching headsails than upwind sloggers. The fact that the track ends just aft of the chainplates umeans that to get a proper lead to a (roughly)105% down to whatever size you desire you will have to raise the clew enough so that the sheet coming from the car on the front of the track bisects the clew and if you extend this line in your imagination it would hit the luff about 60% of the way up the luff from the tack.

got it?

S
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Not sure which version 38 you have and if it matters (wing, SD, deep fin), or how many bodies you sail with but I have a 100% jib for my 38 and have found that I can not easily carry it uphill with a full main over much over 20 TWS. My new main is max roach per phrf and I find I am at 1st reef when seeing 22-25 AWS. I furl the jib to 85-90% with a second reef around 30 TWS, and frankly haven't seen anything over 30 on the Chesapeake since I bought the boat last year. This year may be different as I have improved the sail handling with a new vang and hydraulic backstay along with an outhaul that works under load. That being said I think if I were going to be sailing my boat routinely in breeze over 20 TWS I would not max the roach on the main and would probably go with a 95% max jib that I could successfully reef to 80% or less. I would be interested to hear what other 38 owners have to say.
 

soup1438

Member II
Less than 100% Jibs...

Would a small enough Jib-- well, one that's less than the fore-triangle-- be better rigged w/ a small boom and get treated as a self-tending jib? Wouldn't that make tacking a less frantic activity?

All right, I'll admit that few boats are equipped to support a self-tending jib, but, hey, I'm kind of lazy.

Note also that I'm something of a luddite, since, as much as a roller-furling headsail seems *cool* and convenient, I have an unthinking preference for hank-ons... despite the irritation implicit in changing sails.

My thought is that when you have a sh!tload of air to work with (sh!tload being a technical term, i.e. "more than twenty" in a generous measurement scale) then you really (unless racing of course) can afford to compromise in the sail area in exchange for convenience.

So how far off am I?
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Thanks for all the input so far. I have been out with main and 130 genoa all the way in 18-20knots. This is pushing the upper limit of my comfort with my boat. I have an added on Mars Metal bulb keel on a shoal draft boat so I am sure my boat is less tender than other shoal draft 38's. Once the wind goes over 20knots the "Admiral" gets really anxious and I can feel I am pushing the boat a little too hard with all the laundry up. Running on a broad reach in 22knots produced 9+knots SOG, according to the chartplotter, with all the sail up.

I agree that self tending jibs are nice features but the E38 would not lend itself to this configuration easily. A hank-on jib is fine with a 20-25ft boat but with a 130% genoa on a 38ft the sail is simply to huge to deal with easily. I am thinking that early season sailing, late March-April the 90-100% as recommended would be ideal. I can change out to the 130% when it calms down at the middle of June.

I don't race and I am conservative in how hard I push the boat. I have never had the rail in the water but pretty darn close. Since most of the time the "admiral" is on board she won't let me anyway! I have also noted that if I reef and roll the genoa a bit it costs maybe half a knot or a knot but the ride is more comfortable and I am okay with that. Let me re-phrase that, I am told I am okay with that :D RT
 

Tazman

Member I
Smaller Jib for heavy winds

We sail our 32 on San Francisco Bay. Typical summer winds run 25-35 and our 130 was very difficult to sail with. Rolled up a bit and the sail shape was terrible. Soooo we decided to bite the bullet and have a 90 made. Heavy cloth and built for our roller, we are very hopeful. The winds are blowing to 45 on the Bay now. We will be testing our sail tomorrow with similar winds forcast. I hope that with a single reef and the new blade deployed, we have the perfect sails for our typical SF Bay winds. I will keep you posted, but at this moment I am very optimistic. :egrin:
 

stbdtack

Member III
Just had my new "full roach" main out. I carried it and a 100% jib upwind in 20 gusting to 28 knots apparent. Rail was in the water often but not totally out of control. Pretty happy with the main.

The 100% jib is great on SF bay. My 130% just seems to overpower the boat on most occasions. I'm easing it to keep the boat upright but with the 100% I can sheet it in to a nice shape. Definitely faster sailing.

The fun part is i can short tack up the estuary with the small jib and never need the winch handle. It can be pulled over by hand to close reach trim during the tack by a quick crew.

Rob, you will be really happy with a nice small jib on the bay. Less white knuckled sailing in the slot:egrin:
 

boatboy

Inactive Member
We sail our 39-B mostly in the SF Bay. Our one and only jib that we keep on the roller furler is a 130. This is definitely too much sail when trying to beat upwind on the days it is gusting into the 30's (and generally a few days a year we will see some 40's). You can only roll it up so much before the shape is no longer pretty for the wind - and it also seems like it's abusing the sail.

I just finished a project of adding a removeable inner forestay, and had a new staysail made just for this purpose. This new sail ended up being a 70.

This weekend we did a trip up to Napa and had perfect weather for testing it. On Friday afternoon San Francisco and San Pablo Bays were gusting well into the 30's. The wind was somewhat out of the North, so it was a beat all the way to the Brothers. With this new sail and a single reef in the main, we could not have been more comfortable. It made it very easy to sail in that kind of wind. We could also point way higher than ever before. Vallejo channel was gusting to 38, and we were very much in control. You do definitely need to be well into the 20's before this will be a useable sail however.

Once conditions have calmed down, all we have to do is unhank the staysail and tie the innerstay off to the side to get back to roller furling jib action. It is difficult to tack the genoa with the inner stay in place, so you would not want to do a lot of that.

I think this is a better solution than putting a small jib on the furler, because even in the summer there will still be a lot of times that you want the extra sail area.
 
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bigtyme805

Member III
They make a storm jib that goes over your roller furling and is a great invention. You will be pleased with how this works, I have one for myself. I use it if the winds pick up to 30k.
 

Masallah 04

Member II
go with your genoa alone....

on my 35MKII....I found sailing with the genoa alone allows for much more comfort, and surprising good pointing ability. Tried 15 some odd different sail configurations, and found that in winds 28 knots steady, gusts to 35, using a full genoa (130) alone was the best all round. Also, much easier to deal with one sail when your sailing short handed......honestly, I was surprised by how well the boat does with one sail.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
I have heard that sailing with only one sail in higher winds can lead to problems with the mast cracking/breaking as the rig is unbalanced--ie. all the force on the headsail/forward if sailing with genoa alone. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of this, or is it simply someone hypothesizing or worrying too much.
I have sailed with either the main or the headsail alone in fairly strong winds, and have never had problems, but haven't been out when it's really "howling".
Frank.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Not a problem

These are stout rigs-and will not be threatened by sailing with just a main or headsail-this is often a good solution.
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
I have heard that the concern about sailing with just a jib is that the mast will start "pumping", i.e. oscillating fore and aft. However, I don't think that is a concern with fore and aft lower shrouds like those on the Ericsons (but which you don't seem to see that much on newer boats).
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
I think what you are both saying confirms that Ericsons really are well-built, and have earned their reputation as solid, seaworthy boats. Thanks for your responses.
Frank.
 

windjunkee

Member III
I know I already posted on the So. Calif. thread, but we raced this past weekend from San Pedro to Dana Point, around Catalina Island. We were clocking AWS of 20-30 on the beat across the channel. We had a single reef in the main and our 155 med. #1 up. We could control the 155 though we were on the edge.
On the backside of Catalina Island we were broad reaching in 25-40 knots with 8-10 ft following seas. We elected not to fly the spinnaker in those conditions, even our 1.2 oz. sail, but the 155 did a wonderful job. We had 7.8 knots sustained speeds and surfed over 13 knots on some of the swells.
I have been toying with the idea of ordering a kevlar #3 but haven't pulled the trigger. We definitely could have used it. Our small sail is an old dacron working jib and our headsail tracks don't even go far enough forward to trim it properly.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 hull #134
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Yes, a higher clew on hvy air jibs is nice for visibility, but does NOT perform as well upwind as a lower clewed jib-so these make for better reaching headsails than upwind sloggers. The fact that the track ends just aft of the chainplates umeans that to get a proper lead to a (roughly)105% down to whatever size you desire you will have to raise the clew enough so that the sheet coming from the car on the front of the track bisects the clew and if you extend this line in your imagination it would hit the luff about 60% of the way up the luff from the tack.

got it?

S[/QUOTE]

Actually Seth,
I don't get it! What exactly are you saying. Does this mean since the track ends aft of the chainplates that a high clew is necessary or not? Please explain? Thanks, RT
 

bigtyme805

Member III
Over the course of my years of sailing I reflect on what circumnavigators do with heavy winds. And quite frankly I have never read nor seen them fly one sail. Larry and Lin Parday(think that is the right spelling), preach on balancing the rig. There is no question that the rig is stout, but why put undo stress on it when the sails can be changed?
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Could be but

The Pardey's certainly have it figured out for the little Lyle Hess full keeled cruiser they have-on a boat like that it may well be they need to have sail at both ends of the boat for "balance"-but this has little or nothing to do with stressing the rig. Keep in mind they use a wind vane autopilot, whose performance is directly tied to helm pressure. I think a boat like that with just a storm jib up will have so much lee helm that the 'pilot won't function properly-although I would bet that given enough breeze, even they would drop the trysail or deep reefed main also.

For them, the term "balance" has to do with steering-but they have a very different boat than what we sail!!

This brings up the fact that one must be careful about adopting a procedure just because someone else has done it successfully or often. Before doing something like this, take the time to find out WHY that person may or may not have done something.

Carrying just a storm jib does not put any undo strain on a typical mast, certainly on a cruising boat. If the boat in question has demonstrated it will sail well with a neutral helm (or close to it-no lee helm) with just one sail up, and it is established the rig is not questionable, then this is a fine (and very common) approach. Many of the boats in the disatrous Sydney-Hobart did just that-in fact, once they had breeze in the 70's and higher, the addition of the trysail made some of the boats unmanageable-too much sail.

So, while it is always good to read up on how successful offshore voyagers coped with conditions, before doing the same thing on your boat, think about why they might have done these things and whether it applies to you and your boat.

Safe travels!

S
 
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I've sailed with just a working jib in 20+ knots and found that it made the boat managable and fast with little weather helm. I'll do it again any time I face similar circumstances.
Morgan Stinemetz
 
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