Randy Rutledge
Sustaining Member
Someone please answer this question I need to know the answer. Also on a 29T how much if any does raking the mast back help pointing. My mast has about 4" rake and the specs indicate 9"rake????? I have a manageable degree of weather helm in even in high air ( I know more rake would add WH)
HELP
HELP
Okokok
I was with my son at the 2nd Yankees Game-just got back last night.
Here is the deal-Yes-adding some rake WILL help your pointing. You do this by easing the HS and taking up the same amount on BS-then check rake by hanging a weight on the main halyard and see how far aft of the center of the mast it is. If you have 4" now and have no probs with WH, then add maybe 3" to start, and see how it goes. Another good way to tell if the rake is in the ballpark is to go sailing in say 5-8 knots of breeze. Trim for upwind sailing (rig reasonably tuned, sails correctly trimmed, and crew and gear weight in reasonable places-NOT excessive bow or stern weight-close to the middle as is reasonable for you).
When the boat is "in the groove", and NOBODY moving around while you do this, let go of the steering thingy. If a tiller, great, if a wheel, make SURE the locks are completely free and there is no tension or friction (or as little as possible). The boat should SLOWLY begin to head up into the wind. If it is blowing about 10, it should head up quicker. If, in anything under about 10, it snaps up right into irons, you have TOO much rake. If it behaves as described, you have it pretty close. If it goes dead straight or bears away, you need to add some rake..Got the idea?
For general rig tuning, set the rake with the headstay length as described, making sure all of the lowers are loose and there is nothing pulling the mast aft-like the topping lift, boom, etc. (best to set the boom on deck), and also that none of the fwd halyards are tight-which would restrict the mast from going back. Set the HS length and snug the BS (if you have an adjuster, set it up so there is about 6-8" of play as you swing it around with zero load on the adjuster. This will allow you to sail in light air wioth lots of sag in the HS, yet remove it as the breeze comes up, and also let you ease the backstay all the way going downwind-reducing helm, and getting the rig forward
.
Shrouds-I doubt the 29 has ever really been tuned to this level-so the method is to start with the uppers loose, and to begin with, set the fwd and aft lowers to the mast is dead straight fore and aft where they intesect the mast (no prebend. Make sure you have ZERO reverse bend at this location-if you err on one side, use a small amount of prebend). Tighten the shrouds evenly to keep the mast straight side to side, until there is maybe 1/2-3/4" of play in the uppers, and again sight up the sail track and see that the rig is straight side to side at all shroud intersects, and that the rig either has no prebend or a very small amount (1"), but NO reverse bend.
Go sailing-ideally in about 10-12 knots. All on the water tuning must be done when sailing UPWIND and properly trimmed. When you are in the groove, have the driver bear off about 5 degrees (without easing the genoa or main sheets). This will make the telltales indicate that you either must ease the genoa or head up to get them streaming. Do neither. The point here is to load the boat up as much as possible, and to guarantee the driver won't start pinching (inadvertently, of course ), which will unload the boat, and make rig settings harder to see. The rig should be in column (straight side to side with NO fall off at the top or in the middle of the rig. If you see the middle falling off to leeward, tack, and then while they are not loaded up, you can tighten both lowers equally. Tack back and see if this was enough, etc. If you see the top falling off, tack, and tighten that loose upper while it is not loaded, tack back, retrim and check it out. Once you have the rig straight on both sides, check out the lee shrouds. In 10-12 knots, they should be loose, but not swinging around-about 1" of play is OK. In 15+, you will see maybe up to 2". Any more than that and you should take up on them the same amount on both sides (This was in reference to the uppers and forward lowers-most of the time the aft lowers will be noticelable looser than the others, and that is normal). In under about 6 knots, the lee shrouds should not be moving (but obvioulsy not bone tight). BTW-in 15+ knots and going upwind, even after all this work,you may see a small amount of fall off at the tip of the mast. Don't worry about this as long as you only see it upwind in big air..If you see the middle falling off at any time, you should correct this
Now-back to prebend. You have done all of this tuning-
Sail upwind at the proper angle (but no pinching, and make SURE the genoa lead is in the right spot-this is very important), trim properly and look at the front portion (lower 1/3 primarily)of the main. If you are in 10 knots or less, you should see a fair amount ("normal" amount-whatever that is) of shape in the sail, but not backwinding. If the sail is BOARD flat, ease the fwd lowers a turn and take up the aft lowers the same amount. This will reduce prebend, and add shape to the mainsail in the lower half of the sail. The more likely observation may be that the sail looks too full, is maybe backwinding, etc,. In this case, ADD some prebend, by easing the aft lowers (when not under load, remember? just tack over the make the changes) and taking up on the fwd lowers-until the sail looks better.
If you do this in 12-15 knots-it will be harder to tell and will depend on what adjustments you have available (backstay, etc.), you may see some backwinding even with everything set up right-you will have to evaluate this on how deep or flat the main looks to you. This is why the 8-12 knot range is best for tuning. More than 15 knots, and you can't really tune the thing.
Once you have it dialed in(you should be able to do all this in about an hour to an hour and a half), use tape or some other marking method so you can either duplicate the settings for next year, or use as a reference if you want to get optimal performance in all conditions-you can ease all shrouds in under 6 about 2 turns, and tighten them all(except the aft lowers-leave them the same in heavy air) about 2 turns in over 15 knots. This may not be your style of sailing, but it WILL make a difference in performance!!!
Hope this makes some sense- good luck:nerd: (me)
S
I was with my son at the 2nd Yankees Game-just got back last night.
Here is the deal-Yes-adding some rake WILL help your pointing. You do this by easing the HS and taking up the same amount on BS-then check rake by hanging a weight on the main halyard and see how far aft of the center of the mast it is. If you have 4" now and have no probs with WH, then add maybe 3" to start, and see how it goes. Another good way to tell if the rake is in the ballpark is to go sailing in say 5-8 knots of breeze. Trim for upwind sailing (rig reasonably tuned, sails correctly trimmed, and crew and gear weight in reasonable places-NOT excessive bow or stern weight-close to the middle as is reasonable for you).
When the boat is "in the groove", and NOBODY moving around while you do this, let go of the steering thingy. If a tiller, great, if a wheel, make SURE the locks are completely free and there is no tension or friction (or as little as possible). The boat should SLOWLY begin to head up into the wind. If it is blowing about 10, it should head up quicker. If, in anything under about 10, it snaps up right into irons, you have TOO much rake. If it behaves as described, you have it pretty close. If it goes dead straight or bears away, you need to add some rake..Got the idea?
For general rig tuning, set the rake with the headstay length as described, making sure all of the lowers are loose and there is nothing pulling the mast aft-like the topping lift, boom, etc. (best to set the boom on deck), and also that none of the fwd halyards are tight-which would restrict the mast from going back. Set the HS length and snug the BS (if you have an adjuster, set it up so there is about 6-8" of play as you swing it around with zero load on the adjuster. This will allow you to sail in light air wioth lots of sag in the HS, yet remove it as the breeze comes up, and also let you ease the backstay all the way going downwind-reducing helm, and getting the rig forward
.Shrouds-I doubt the 29 has ever really been tuned to this level-so the method is to start with the uppers loose, and to begin with, set the fwd and aft lowers to the mast is dead straight fore and aft where they intesect the mast (no prebend. Make sure you have ZERO reverse bend at this location-if you err on one side, use a small amount of prebend). Tighten the shrouds evenly to keep the mast straight side to side, until there is maybe 1/2-3/4" of play in the uppers, and again sight up the sail track and see that the rig is straight side to side at all shroud intersects, and that the rig either has no prebend or a very small amount (1"), but NO reverse bend.
Go sailing-ideally in about 10-12 knots. All on the water tuning must be done when sailing UPWIND and properly trimmed. When you are in the groove, have the driver bear off about 5 degrees (without easing the genoa or main sheets). This will make the telltales indicate that you either must ease the genoa or head up to get them streaming. Do neither. The point here is to load the boat up as much as possible, and to guarantee the driver won't start pinching (inadvertently, of course
), which will unload the boat, and make rig settings harder to see. The rig should be in column (straight side to side with NO fall off at the top or in the middle of the rig. If you see the middle falling off to leeward, tack, and then while they are not loaded up, you can tighten both lowers equally. Tack back and see if this was enough, etc. If you see the top falling off, tack, and tighten that loose upper while it is not loaded, tack back, retrim and check it out. Once you have the rig straight on both sides, check out the lee shrouds. In 10-12 knots, they should be loose, but not swinging around-about 1" of play is OK. In 15+, you will see maybe up to 2". Any more than that and you should take up on them the same amount on both sides (This was in reference to the uppers and forward lowers-most of the time the aft lowers will be noticelable looser than the others, and that is normal). In under about 6 knots, the lee shrouds should not be moving (but obvioulsy not bone tight). BTW-in 15+ knots and going upwind, even after all this work,you may see a small amount of fall off at the tip of the mast. Don't worry about this as long as you only see it upwind in big air..If you see the middle falling off at any time, you should correct thisNow-back to prebend. You have done all of this tuning-
Sail upwind at the proper angle (but no pinching, and make SURE the genoa lead is in the right spot-this is very important), trim properly and look at the front portion (lower 1/3 primarily)of the main. If you are in 10 knots or less, you should see a fair amount ("normal" amount-whatever that is) of shape in the sail, but not backwinding. If the sail is BOARD flat, ease the fwd lowers a turn and take up the aft lowers the same amount. This will reduce prebend, and add shape to the mainsail in the lower half of the sail. The more likely observation may be that the sail looks too full, is maybe backwinding, etc,. In this case, ADD some prebend, by easing the aft lowers (when not under load, remember? just tack over the make the changes) and taking up on the fwd lowers-until the sail looks better.
If you do this in 12-15 knots-it will be harder to tell and will depend on what adjustments you have available (backstay, etc.), you may see some backwinding even with everything set up right-you will have to evaluate this on how deep or flat the main looks to you. This is why the 8-12 knot range is best for tuning. More than 15 knots, and you can't really tune the thing.
Once you have it dialed in(you should be able to do all this in about an hour to an hour and a half), use tape or some other marking method so you can either duplicate the settings for next year, or use as a reference if you want to get optimal performance in all conditions-you can ease all shrouds in under 6 about 2 turns, and tighten them all(except the aft lowers-leave them the same in heavy air) about 2 turns in over 15 knots. This may not be your style of sailing, but it WILL make a difference in performance!!!
Hope this makes some sense- good luck:nerd: (me)
S
Randy Rutledge
Sustaining Member
Seth
Thsnks for the information. I have not had the chance to tune my rig but I did race in the first club race of the spring series Saturday and placed a close second to the club beyond theory sailor. We had light air and CZ sails with no wind I don't know how he does it (he sails an 79 Catilena 25 tall). His time was 98 min and ours was 104 I actually took the lead three or four times during the race. I might have beat him if my rigging had been tuned. The rig is straight and fairly tight but more rake might help in light air and improve pointing.
I had intended to do a bottom Job this spring but it needs more work than I could do in a week of vacation so I am doing that this winter. We pressure washed the bottom that had been in the water for six years without being hauled for cleaning. What a difference that made. (I have owned the boat for two years)
Thanks again.
Thsnks for the information. I have not had the chance to tune my rig but I did race in the first club race of the spring series Saturday and placed a close second to the club beyond theory sailor. We had light air and CZ sails with no wind I don't know how he does it (he sails an 79 Catilena 25 tall). His time was 98 min and ours was 104 I actually took the lead three or four times during the race. I might have beat him if my rigging had been tuned. The rig is straight and fairly tight but more rake might help in light air and improve pointing.
I had intended to do a bottom Job this spring but it needs more work than I could do in a week of vacation so I am doing that this winter. We pressure washed the bottom that had been in the water for six years without being hauled for cleaning. What a difference that made. (I have owned the boat for two years)
Thanks again.
All good stuff
Randy,
Glad you learned just how much difference a clean bottom makes-even if it is not a perfect bottom, keeping it clean makes a HUGE difference!
Based on your report, you had even speed with the other guy-and it was things like sailing in and out of a patch of wind that made the difference. This is why you never want to steer from the lee side if you can help it-you can't see what is coming you way (puffs, lulls, shifts, etc.). Of course this is easier if you have a tiller, but....
Finally, to make sure you are clear on the rake thing:
Yes, more rake would have helped you UPWIND, but NOT reaching or running.
The answer to light air speed improvements are: increase rake for the upwind leg-gaining mostly pointing ability (by easing off the headstay), and(this may have been the bigger issue) LOOSEN the shrouds and backstay for overall speed and wider steering groove.
The bottom line is that based on your report, you had everything set fairly well except the rig (uppers and lowers) may have been too tight for the.
In light air you want lots of rake and headstay sag, and loose side shrouds. As the breeze comes up, tighten the shrouds and headstay, and if the backstay is adjustable, begin to tighten to limit the HS sag that will naturally increase as the wind builds.
It is just as important to have a loose rig in light air as it is to have a tight rig in heavier air.
Enjoy!
S
Randy,
Glad you learned just how much difference a clean bottom makes-even if it is not a perfect bottom, keeping it clean makes a HUGE difference!
Based on your report, you had even speed with the other guy-and it was things like sailing in and out of a patch of wind that made the difference. This is why you never want to steer from the lee side if you can help it-you can't see what is coming you way (puffs, lulls, shifts, etc.). Of course this is easier if you have a tiller, but....
Finally, to make sure you are clear on the rake thing:
Yes, more rake would have helped you UPWIND, but NOT reaching or running.
The answer to light air speed improvements are: increase rake for the upwind leg-gaining mostly pointing ability (by easing off the headstay), and(this may have been the bigger issue) LOOSEN the shrouds and backstay for overall speed and wider steering groove.
The bottom line is that based on your report, you had everything set fairly well except the rig (uppers and lowers) may have been too tight for the.
In light air you want lots of rake and headstay sag, and loose side shrouds. As the breeze comes up, tighten the shrouds and headstay, and if the backstay is adjustable, begin to tighten to limit the HS sag that will naturally increase as the wind builds.
It is just as important to have a loose rig in light air as it is to have a tight rig in heavier air.
Enjoy!
S
jamescio
Member II
Appreciate the reply...but still need the numbers
Seth; I really appreciate the time it took you to write the reply, but I am still trying to get the exact numbers. I have done all this previously, I am looking for what the recomended numbers are so I can get into the ball-park before doing the fine-tuning. If anyone has these I would really like them.
Thanks
Jim Ciotti
Ericson 29 (196)
Wild Thing
Seth; I really appreciate the time it took you to write the reply, but I am still trying to get the exact numbers. I have done all this previously, I am looking for what the recomended numbers are so I can get into the ball-park before doing the fine-tuning. If anyone has these I would really like them.
Thanks
Jim Ciotti
Ericson 29 (196)
Wild Thing
Sorry about this, but
Hi Jim,
Well, one reason I took so much time is that you won't find anything printed with half of that info, and as far as exact numbers, they don't exist. The way these numbers are derived (at least numbers that have any validity) are from extensive side by side sailing with IDENTICAL boats. That is why boats like J 24's, Melges 24's, even J 35's and others, who sail in tightly controlled One Design Fleets, have developed tuning numbers that are precise and repeatable.
The E-29 was never intended as a one design, and while they came off the line fairly close, owners took many different approaches to setting these boats up-some were loaded with gear, others not. More importantly, this was built as a cruising boat with enough speed to race in club level events, so no emphasis on maximizing performance was ever present.
There may be a few owners who put in the time to develop tuning numbers for themselves, but who knows what they had for sail inventories-especially compared to what you are using (this makes a difference as I have mentioned in previous posts)...and in any case-these are certainly not "official", much less exact numbers.
I wrote that reply precisely because there are no exact or official tuning settings for this boat, so your best bet is to apply proven methods to establish a baseline, and go from there. I promise you that if you follow the steps I gave you, you will more than just be in the ballpark-you will be better tuned than most boats!
BTW-Dave G's comments about his Loos guage are right-the only info Loos provides is about percentage of breaking strength-
Good sailing!
S
Hi Jim,
Well, one reason I took so much time is that you won't find anything printed with half of that info, and as far as exact numbers, they don't exist. The way these numbers are derived (at least numbers that have any validity) are from extensive side by side sailing with IDENTICAL boats. That is why boats like J 24's, Melges 24's, even J 35's and others, who sail in tightly controlled One Design Fleets, have developed tuning numbers that are precise and repeatable.
The E-29 was never intended as a one design, and while they came off the line fairly close, owners took many different approaches to setting these boats up-some were loaded with gear, others not. More importantly, this was built as a cruising boat with enough speed to race in club level events, so no emphasis on maximizing performance was ever present.
There may be a few owners who put in the time to develop tuning numbers for themselves, but who knows what they had for sail inventories-especially compared to what you are using (this makes a difference as I have mentioned in previous posts)...and in any case-these are certainly not "official", much less exact numbers.
I wrote that reply precisely because there are no exact or official tuning settings for this boat, so your best bet is to apply proven methods to establish a baseline, and go from there. I promise you that if you follow the steps I gave you, you will more than just be in the ballpark-you will be better tuned than most boats!
BTW-Dave G's comments about his Loos guage are right-the only info Loos provides is about percentage of breaking strength-
Good sailing!
S
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Here comes a dead horse......
I know we have addressed this in the other thread, but just so you are clear on your question about how to measure rake-If you measure "to the base of the mast"-you only see BEND (and not rake)between the top and boottom of the mast-which is actually irrelevant. The bend you are concerned with is that which affects mainsail shape-this is the only reason we fool around with bend-and as such you measure bend between the top and the gooseneck area (to correspond to the luff of the mainsail).
Rake is measured between the top of the rig and the deck-as you are looking to see how far ahead of or behind vertical the top of the mast is...Drop a line from the top of the rig to the deck and you will see how far aft (or fwd) the top of the rig is relative to the base......
Die horsey, Die!
I know we have addressed this in the other thread, but just so you are clear on your question about how to measure rake-If you measure "to the base of the mast"-you only see BEND (and not rake)between the top and boottom of the mast-which is actually irrelevant. The bend you are concerned with is that which affects mainsail shape-this is the only reason we fool around with bend-and as such you measure bend between the top and the gooseneck area (to correspond to the luff of the mainsail).
Rake is measured between the top of the rig and the deck-as you are looking to see how far ahead of or behind vertical the top of the mast is...Drop a line from the top of the rig to the deck and you will see how far aft (or fwd) the top of the rig is relative to the base......
Die horsey, Die!
Randy Rutledge
Sustaining Member
Improvements
The weekend of Oct 11 I had planned to adjust the rake on my E29 as she wasn’t pointing as well as I feel she had before I dropped the mast and installed the mast hinge plate (tabernacle). The wind was at about 12 knots so it was impossible to use the weight and get a measure. I just eyeballed the rake and basically ended up using all the adjustment on the back stay. I know this is not very scientific but I did it as there was no way to measure and I was not satisfied with the performance I was getting.
This Saturday we had races and from 9 to 12 knots of wind. I passed out ran and out pointed boats I had only watched from behind. I finished third for the day for the three races finishing ahead of boats that I had only chased in the past. I know this is not going to work for everyone but adding rake helped on all points of sail. I did have weather helm in gust of 16 knots and above but easing the main takes care of that and wore me out over the three races as I have a helmsman and I run the sails along with my girlfriend.
I hated having a race prepared Catalina 22 take first on adjusted time; I finished ahead of him all three races. His .98 against my .90 Portsmouth rating.
All that said I had a great day racing and the boat surprised me as much as it did the competition as I sailed past boats I previously couldn't touch.
Does anyone know who has the E29 that is driving down the Portsmouth ratings?
The weekend of Oct 11 I had planned to adjust the rake on my E29 as she wasn’t pointing as well as I feel she had before I dropped the mast and installed the mast hinge plate (tabernacle). The wind was at about 12 knots so it was impossible to use the weight and get a measure. I just eyeballed the rake and basically ended up using all the adjustment on the back stay. I know this is not very scientific but I did it as there was no way to measure and I was not satisfied with the performance I was getting.
This Saturday we had races and from 9 to 12 knots of wind. I passed out ran and out pointed boats I had only watched from behind. I finished third for the day for the three races finishing ahead of boats that I had only chased in the past. I know this is not going to work for everyone but adding rake helped on all points of sail. I did have weather helm in gust of 16 knots and above but easing the main takes care of that and wore me out over the three races as I have a helmsman and I run the sails along with my girlfriend.
I hated having a race prepared Catalina 22 take first on adjusted time; I finished ahead of him all three races. His .98 against my .90 Portsmouth rating.
All that said I had a great day racing and the boat surprised me as much as it did the competition as I sailed past boats I previously couldn't touch.
Does anyone know who has the E29 that is driving down the Portsmouth ratings?
Great news!
Randy,
I am glad things worked out with the re-tune! While it certainly may be true you saw a performance gain-some of it may be in your head-at least the reaching and running part.
While more aft rake helps you upwind, it hurts you downwind (although the upwind gain could be greater than the offwind loss)-boats often set up for Mexico and other downwind races by raking as far forward as they can-this will reduce any weather helm (does nothing for you off the wind) and "encourage" the boat to sail deeper...
What matters is that you are going better-and I bet the move really helped you upwind. Something that MIGHT be at play on the reaches is that with the aft rake your genoa may set better (in terms of clew height above deck)-which could be faster than with the old rake setting-but I would need to see this to be sure...
Congrats!~
S
Randy,
I am glad things worked out with the re-tune! While it certainly may be true you saw a performance gain-some of it may be in your head-at least the reaching and running part.
While more aft rake helps you upwind, it hurts you downwind (although the upwind gain could be greater than the offwind loss)-boats often set up for Mexico and other downwind races by raking as far forward as they can-this will reduce any weather helm (does nothing for you off the wind) and "encourage" the boat to sail deeper...
What matters is that you are going better-and I bet the move really helped you upwind. Something that MIGHT be at play on the reaches is that with the aft rake your genoa may set better (in terms of clew height above deck)-which could be faster than with the old rake setting-but I would need to see this to be sure...
Congrats!~
S