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Boating down in your area?

u079721

Contributing Partner
I sold my Ericson a couple of years ago, but I still get the newsletter from our yacht club (The Bay City Yacht Club on Saginaw Bay in Lake Huron). And in the most recent I was astonished to see that the membership has gone down so much that they now have about about 45 of the 290 slips in the club vacant. Just a few years ago there was a long waiting list for slips. And about 15 of these are the largest, 50 foot slips for the huge gas guzzling power boats.

Wow. Whether it is demographics (a fancy way to say we're all getting old) or the economy (local or national) boating in these parts is sure taking a hit.

How about your area? I see some of you complaining about higher slip prices, which might suggest increased demand. But it could just as well come from decreased supply, as half occupied marinas and yacht clubs close there door.

On the bright side this would seem to suggest that used boats ought to become more affordable for those of us still interested.
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I've heard that motorboat sales and use have been down in the last couple seasons because of the extreme cost of a day's fuel for bigger powerboats. Those things can blow a thousand bucks in a day on a sportfishing trip.

I can't say I've personally noticed any dropoff in sailing though.
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
I know the same thing has happened at Shilshole Marina here in Seattle. A few years ago there were almost 200 people waiting for a 40' slip - at last visit, there were about 50...

//sse
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Well it doesn't seem like slips/moorings are any cheaper but they are getting easier to come by. There used to be a waiting list for almost everywhere but now if you just call around you will find a spot quite easily. The noticeable difference is out on the water. There seems to be much fewer powerboats out on the nice days, at least last season. I know the marinas are full so that means people are just sitting on them at the dock due to fuel costs. Three boats at my club are not going in next year because of fuel costs, all powerboats. The upside of this is there are still plenty of sailboats here. Newport, RI is the self-proclaimed sailing capitol of the East Coast. It seems that way on weekends as you can almost walk from Newport to Jamestown on the sailboats they are so thick. For reasons I've never really understood sailboaters from Newport/Jamestown just seem to stay bottled up in that relatively small area just outside Newport harbor to Jamestown and bottled in by the bridge. Its cool to watch though.

I should add that RI is known as the Ocean State and it shows. In winter it seems every other driveway or yard has a boat stored there, and the marinas lots are stuffed to the gills too. The only really good reason to live here is the boating. RT
 
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Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
similar here, but still busy...

In our area (we're about an hour south of Annapolis), our marina is rumored to have had a waiting list for a long time. We've now noticed vacant slips- although we also see a lot of new boats to the area. I guess it might be down some, but I would bet it will pick back up. I'm also not going to complain- a "crowded" day of sailboats in our area is 5 or 6 out on a 80 degree day with 8-10 knts of breeze, rather than the 50 you'd see up in Naptown.
Chris
 

Gary Freeburg

Member II
Many interesting thoughts here. Perhaps I'm too sheltered, but where are the kids and young adults? I go to the boatyard and it's a bunch of guys my age (over 50) and the marina isn't much better. I have learned to single hand years ago as my wife and especially the kids seem little interested in sailing. The usual enticements ie. boat food (junk food, which they don't get much of at home), bringing friends along, short trips to new places, etc. etc. etc. don't seem to work. They don't mind staying at the marina near the pool..perhaps "virtual reality" will be the wave of the future. And of course the cost of owning, maintaining and insuring the boat is more than many people want to deal with. I have seen a shift from independent baby boom dreamers to the newer generation of pragmatic, practical, two heads are better than one people. I never did ride my bike to school with a helmet on.
Gary Freeburg
SV Katmai
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Where ARE the kids?

What prompted my comment was a conversation at a party of sailors last weekend. And at that party someone made the same observation as Gary - that there were no kids around the club. There might be the occasional grand child, but most everyone at the club is 50 or so. Young couples new to boating are no where to be seen.
 

Lew Decker

Member III
I singlehand as well for exactly the same reasons. My wife enjoys sailing once in a blue moon, or if company shows up, but that's about it. My son likes to sail but not to the point where he follows me down to the marina. My daughter would like to get out more often and talks about cruising down to the Sea of Cortez, but she is still in school and has no plans to stop until she has her Ph. D. Meanwhile, I wander down to the boat alone, sometimes just to sit and watch the boat traffic or the sea life. It makes the boat an extreme luxury that I may have to bail out on.

As for slips around here, they are precious and expensive if you want to be in the heart of SD Bay. They are cheaper and a little more available if you stay in South Bay or over in Mission Bay where I am. There are probably slips in my marina that are empty but I haven't asked in some months. If someone made me a good offer on my boat, I'd probably sell out. The buyer would inherit one of the best slips in all of San Diego.:esad:
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I expect the real estate boom has something to do with keeping young families out of boating right now. We're 30, with a 3 yo, and another one on the way, and all our professional-type friends are into mortgages they can barely keep up with. And the houses aren't extravagant either. Just small single-family houses in good suburban towns.

It's honestly one of the reasons my wife and I are moving to rural Maine this summer. Too many people around here working too hard just to keep up with the area. We want to work less hard, have more space, and spend more time with our kids. We're shopping for twice the house for half the money, and our kids will grow up on the water to boot! :) No marina slips available, but moorings are about $100/year.
 
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Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Disappearing Young Owners

Gary Freeburg said:
...where are the kids and young adults?

I think it's a combination of the cost, available time, and all the other things that demand attention in our lives...

Here in Seattle it was just announced that the median cost of a single family home just crossed the $400k mark - and a home at that price is nothing that will bowl you over. Where we live - in West Seattle - small homes (like 1800 sq ft) are valued in excess of $350k - which I think is absurd.

The cost of fuel notwithstanding (for powerboats), when you combine the general cost of living with the cost of slip fees, insurance, operational costs, projects and replacements - plus the cost of the boat itself, it becomes problematic for the average person to justify.

Of course, none of this addresses the biggest cost of all: time. With the lack of economic security these days in the job market, combined with other demands, the willingness to layout large tracts of time for such lifestyle has become less attractive for younger (defined as 40 and below) owners. I know that when I was 38, I would frequently get cell calls (during off days) from my boss about this or that - and I was reluctant to mention that I was sitting out in the middle of Puget Sound on my boat (for appearance-sake, I mean)...

I would be interested in seeing some data from the seventies onward to compare ownership to the general economic climate over a historical range. I'll bet that much of the 'feeling' that ownership has declined in recent years is attached to an actual run-up in ownership during the roaring 90s. It would be interesting to see if the current 'decline' is really a decline, or just a 'return to normal' behavior.

//sse
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
There are some really great points made here. Sailing and boating in general may be returning to the "normal" level of the pre-boom late 80's and 90's. My wife and I are one of three couples at our club that are under 40. Most are over 50. Where are the kids? Playing video games and doing other things that fit better into schedules. Problem with sailing and boating in general is that besides the obvious cost it takes a lot of time and commitment. That doesn't fit in really well with the on-time, need it yesterday world. Sailing in particular is open ended simply because the speed of the boats is slow and this combined with adverse weather can easily stretch a short trip to a long one. My concern is that boating will truely become the wealthy persons hobby. Which is a shame considering how many expensive boats I just see sitting at the dock never being used. I have almost sold my soul to get my E38. I knew this going in and I accept it, its what I want. I think there are not many my age willing or able to do this. RT
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Younger people, tough decisions...

Rob makes a really good point- having a boat (nice, but not necessarily extravagant) is tough to do if you have any other outside things going on. We don't have kids- if we did, I can assure you we wouldn't have this boat. Our club has quite a few people under 50, but we are very careful to be an inexpensive sailing association rather than a "yacht club". One of the things my wife and I have been working on is to increase the non-owner membership of our club... to entice younger people to go sailing with us (cruising, racing, whatever...) and not have to dish out the tens of thousands to buy a boat. Anyone have club membership that doesn't own boats?

Just some free thought here in a great conversation... Good topic, Steve!

BTW Steve--- when are you getting your next project? :devil: :D

Chris
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Next "project"?

The next "project" will come some time after the next job.

Not to be a downer here, but I am not finding much luck locating any companies that are willing to hire scientists over 50. Nineteen interview trips so far. Which is why on some days I consider myself more retired than umemployed - just wish I'd planned it. I am getting lots of frequent flyers miles at least.

Some really interesting points here. Someone on this board must be an economist who could comment on real income and disposable income, and whether the downward trend in boating is here to stay.

Lew - can you really transfer "custody" of your slip to the new owner of your Ericson? Unless it is a condo dock that sort of thing doesn't happen in the Great Lakes, where the marina controlls the slip access. And don't talk about having to give up your boat, that's just too sad.

And as for the boats not getting used much - isn't it amazing how many beautiful boats (both sail and power) are sitting in their slips on a sunny Saturday afternoon in most marinas? I bet that no more than 10% of the boats are ever out of their slips at any one time at our yacht club. And I'm told by my friends that the big power boats almost never leave the slips anymore.


Speaking of projects - I did just have another article published that some of you may have seen. This time it was in the Ocean Voyager issue (#153) of Ocean Navigator magazine. It's an article of techniques I developed for precision anchoring (putting the hook where you want to, and knowing when you drag), and of course it includes a beautiful picture of my Ericson at anchor. If I could just come up with an idea for a new article every week or so I wouldn't have to go back to "real" work! I'd love to post it here for everyone to read but I don't think the editors at Ocean Navigator would take to kindly to that idea.
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Steve,
Ever think of reinventing yourself? I have my MBA and used to work for a Fortune 100 high-tech manufacturing firm in TX. I loved my job and used to put in 80+hr weeks. They rewarded this with a "reduction in force" in 02. I made it to the 3rd cut, then I was gone too. When I relocated home to RI there aren't any jobs here unless I want to commute at least an hour. I gave up the corporate life and all the BS to go back to my roots in construction and remodeling. I have a business partner and we make a decent living. Not what I used to make but enough and 40hr weeks with the option of short days in the sailing season. My biz partner sails too and we knock off early to sail at least once a week. Its not about the money, I make do with what I have. My time is mine, and I am my boss. If you can pull this off I highly recommend it. RT
 

Lew Decker

Member III
Steve - It is odd to find so many of us in similar circumstances. My own financial embarrassment is completely of my own doing, though. I "retired" from a teaching career 2 1/2 years ago to pursue a lifelong dream of becoming a writer. As of last month, I have completed two books (one novel, one non-fiction - both sailing related) but as so often happens, I can't get anyone to read them. Agents are worthless and publishing companies don't want to be bothered. As a result, my fortunes have dwindled to nothing. I have to find some kind of work, but at age 61, the prospects of finding anything for more than $10 an hour is bleak. The mistake I made was not having Plan B in place in case I was a failure as a writer. So...My boat is probably on the block even though it will be a bitter pill to swallow if a good offer shows up. As for the slip, I keep my boat in a very old-fashioned marina where the management is loose. A new owner would have no problem taking over the $460/mo. fees.

I have written for "Cruising World", "Latitudes & Attitudes", and "CQ", the rag for ham radio enthusiasts, but as you have noted, it would be a little marginal depending on these pubs to make a living. The last story I did for CW (Nov., 2002) paid $500. I would need to do that once a week to supplement my meager retirement income and then I would only be in survival mode. I hope you have better luck. Anyone want to read a bad novel?:cool:
P1010011.jpg
 
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Gary Freeburg

Member II
Floating condos,
As I've wandered the marinas on the Chesapeake and elsewhere I've gained some interesting insights into boat ownership. On many occasions I've come across couples in their sail and powerboats sitting in their covered cockpits, drinks in hand. Being new to an area, my first questions are usually "where have you sailed and what are your favorite destinations"? The answers are so often, "we only use the boat as an escape", its "a weekend hideaway/retreat from the job"! I was dumbfounded that so many don't sail, and even hire someone to bring the boat around to the yard for the bi-annual hull cleaning and painting! "Where else can you live on/next to the water so cheaply", they add? I guess they are right. I'm getting a better understanding as to why a few manufacturers of boats may cut the corner on seaworthiness to make interior comfort the priority.
I was in Elfin Cove, Alaska about eight years ago waiting on a favorable weather window to cross the Gulf of AK to Homer, AK on my E30+ (after 21 days in the Inside Passage). I was grumping to an elderly native lady about the expense and hassel of boat ownership. She looked at me and asked "what else would you rather be doing with your time and money?". I have to admit, that trip and many others I've taken prove, at least to me, that putting up sail, feeling the boat move, smelling the air and occassionally scaring the hell out of myself is much more interesting than sitting at the dock. As Captain Ron says, "If it's going to happen, it's going to happen out there..." That's life.
Gary Freeburg
SV Katmai
 
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Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Gary Freeburg said:
...She looked at me and asked "what else would you rather be doing with your time and money?". I have to admit, that trip and many others I've taken prove, at least to me, that putting up sail, feeling the boat move, smelling the air and occassionally scaring the hell out of myself is much more interesting than sitting at the dock...

Yeah - I would second that feeling. I spent a good deal of money on my E35-3, and if you did all the math, it would be a financial loss overall. I've never seen money move out of my accounts so quickly. I used to stand in line at West Marine, joking with the counter people, that some time ago...

"...I needed to purchase a vacuum cleaner - so I spent several weeks researching models and learning all about motors and filters, and what was what, etc. In the end, I spent $325 on a nice new model - which seemed like a lot of money at the time.

Now that I have this boat, $325 seems like nothing - I mean, $325 won't even get everything I need when I haulout, etc..."

It was at this point, that I made a major mistake, and said..."I sure look forward to $325 being a lot of money to be again some day!..."

Big mistake - now, as a student again, $325 is a ton of money to me... Oh well...

I don't know - I can look at Quicken and see all the expenses, etc - but I still smile when I think about all the good times and (like you said) frightening times we had on 'the boat'. Sometimes I wish I had some of that money back - but most of the time, I'm really greatful for having had the experiences - and for having gotten to reach that rung of the ladder - if only for a short time...

//sse

ps: Talk about careers - as I write this, I'm a 44 year old who's back to grad school - trying to go into Architecture/Planning (180 degree turn from where I was - trying to 'strap on a new keel' so to speak). There's a fellow in some of my classes I've made friends with - he's 62 - retired - and trying to start a second career himself... At times it's scary - but most of the time I'm quite happy with the decision to make the turn, etc...
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Floating condos and new careers

I haven't quite given up on being a chemist - not yet anyway. I figure I'll give it the rest of this year to see if I can get back into it.

In my case I don't have a university in town to take classes at, so going back to school would be a really big deal to sell my house and relocate. If there were a good school in town I would probably follow Sean back to the halls of academia - where I was a prisoner of higher education till the age of 30. (Which is part of why I am not in much of a hurry to return.)

Floating condos indeed. My wife and I once joked that the big power boats never really moved from the dock – so why do they even need engines? We wondered whether there might not be a business opportunity in making big power cruisers without the bother and expense of engines. Just think of all the extra room they would have! Part of the service when you bought one would be a tow to and from your slip each spring and fall.

Being at the point where I almost wonder whether it is worth getting back in the work force I have frequent occasion to dwell on all the money that Rag Doll cost us over the years. But like Sean I don’t regret a minute of it. (Well, not many at least.) Yes it was a lot of money, but boating opened up a whole new world of experiences that we would never have obtained otherwise. Memories that I will keep long after the price has been forgotten.
 

Gary Freeburg

Member II
This thread is the heart and soul of sailing and trying to keep the passion flowing through assets (the job) and liability (the boat). I left my job four years ago thinking that another would be close at hand no matter where I ended up. 25 years of university teaching and ascending through the ranks, coupled with my age of 58, has placed me outside of the envelope, at least with the local colleges and universities in my new area. Universities like most other businesses prefer to keep a lid on expenses and hire those with less experience for much less money. Although I miss teaching very much, I'm not interested in adjunct work that requires me to be on campus throughout the semester for such little return. And, I guess that feeling extends into working anywhere for lessor or greater money in hopes of buying the "Big One". Hence, I have downsized my sailboat to a cheap, but capable, E27. I want to sail the remaining life out of this boat and will do it with the upmost happiness. Having battled cancer five years ago and being lucky enough to survive, I have taken the time to reflect on my priorities. Family, of course, is at the top of the list. Being out on the bay or the ocean with sails up and having to go nowhere (no direction is the ultimate freedom) is a very close second. Perhaps the book that I've just finished, a photographic documentary of: "Alaska's Rim of Fire, Valley of Ten Thousand Smokes", will do well and I'll get that big E38. Chances are, I'll be seeing you guys on the water in my banged up E27 for years to come..don't let my smile and big white Tilley hat blind you..
Cheers,
Gary Freeburg
SV Katmai
 
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