Chute dilemna

I'm in the process of trying to decide what type of spinnaker to buy for my E32-2. I'm leaning heavily towards an A-sail for ease of handling etc, but have recently spoken with people that say I'll be disappointed with it for racing. I sure like the idea of not dealing with a pole especially as I'm usually racing shorthanded![Why don't my friends think it's fun to go out and get cold and wet in the winter!!?] Any thoughts or preferences?
Steve

a couple thoughts...

Hi Steve, and welcome!
I'm going to post a couple of my thoughts- I'm sure several others will chime in!
I'd base that decision on where and how it is most likely to be used most often. I think a nice all purpose asym would be fine. The guys who claim you won't like racing with an asymetric spinnaker are not getting out enough :woot: The sail is fun to cruise with, fine for club racing (trim is a discussion we've touched on some on this board, but is always fun to chat about some more!), and all around easy and fun to work with.
Then it just comes down to how serious the racing is as to how it's cut and stuff. You can also still use a pole with it for running...
And don't forget to get the dousing sock, it's a brilliant invention!
Just my opinions, take em for what they are worth...
Chris

What he said! Down here in the Tampa Bay area we get a PHRF rating w/o the spinnaker--in the class I race in--and then for distance races we can declare for a cute and lose about, in my case, 25 seconds a mile. Most of the time it's just not owrth it. I think an asymmetrical is a great sail; it allows you the option gaining some extra speed off the wind in a cruising situation. I have a sock and set it out of that. It's a real plus when bringing the sail down. The only thing I had to learn with this new chute is that it is so much bigger than my orginal one, which was retired after 20 years, that I have to set the turning block in the most aft place on the genoa track. About the pole...the sail is probably faster when sailing reaches than it is straight down wind. You make up the extra distance with far better boat speed.
Morgan Stinemetz

We race our E-34 with both types.

For distance races, there is clear advantage to the A-sail. It's easy to handle, easier to trim, and is faster because of its flow properties.

For very deep sailing (as is often the best course in buoy races) Symetricals have several clear advantages. More of the sail os projected to windward when the pole is squared back. A better flow is established for this point of sail. Also the symetrical is driving the boat all the way through a gybe, so you don't give up those extra few second (or sometimes minutes) of driving force while you complete gybes.

The best clue I've seen on which to choose is to watch America's Cup competitors. They also carry both types and choose based on the particulars in each race.

Sail fast!

-Steve

Steve and Morgan bring up excellent points. In our club, most of our races are limited to 3.5 hours and based on wind conditions, means a few trips around the same course so they can shorten if needed. That means the longest legs in about 2.5 miles and the short ones are sometimes less that 1 mile. Unless you have a really good crew who can really get the chute up and down quickly, it may not make sense unless the wind conditionsn are perfect for favoring a chute. Low winds don't buy you too much since there is a lot of shifts and you have a hard time filling the sail, plus the extra weight up front on the hoist and take down slow you down. Higher winds and the guys without the chute are at hull speed anyway, but you would be over hull speed. There is a NFS Hunter 37.5 that races in our club who does really well against a Beneteau, Jeanneau, and CC99 as well as a bunch of J30, all flying kites. With the 25 seconds on the short course, he wins a lot of races. On the longer Mid distance races which are5 hours, things even out more.

In short, when I'm racing, I'm not too concerned about who beats me when they are using a completely different configuration. There is a guy who has a Catalina 30 who is also our PHRF rep. He purposely deturned his rig to get a higher handicap by shortening his sail on the boom. The time he gained versus the performance he lost fabvored doing it. I personally don't agree with that, but for each there own. Also, my rating of 197 on the 32 versus a Tbird with 224 or 204 depending is not a good reference point. They beat me in almost all wind conditons unless it is really blowing. In light wind, there is no comparision since our water line is almost the same and there is a difference of about 6k pounds.

regard
shaun

Points made

The guys have said it all very well-I might just add:

1). There are A-sails, and then there are A-sails. A cruising A-sail, unless ordered with specific criteria, is slightly smaller than a full size spinnaker (A-sail or sym), and is usually cut (designed) more for reaching-slightly flatter than an AP or running shape. Yes, you can use them on a pole and square it back if you want, and it will make the sail MUCH faster at those angles(aft of about 120 degrees app) compared to not using a pole.

2). In my opinion, A-sails, assuming they are full sized, "racing" A-sails sailing against "racing sym" sails, are ALWAYS faster than sym kites-all things being equal (A-sail runner vs. Sym sail runner, etc) . If designed to sail deep, and if there is a pole, they will sail just as deep and just as fast or faster (this is the first time I have disagreed with my pal Valentor!). I cannot agree that there is ever an aerodynamic advantage with a sym sail. In my opinion, as Valentor notes, the ONLY advantage is that in buoy racing when nearing the mark, and everyone is digging super deep and gybing back and forth, the Sym kite will stay full during the gybe (right, Mr. Bowperson???? ), while the A-sail must collapse to gybe. This can eek out a 1/4-1/2 length at times, and could make the difference to win. This is not insignificant, but is not a function of the Sym sail being faster or deeper through the water. Despite what my pal says, my opinion is that a running A-sail projects just as well as the Sym-and whatever percieved loss there is from the narrower back half of the sail is more than offset by having a "real" leech-instead of a mirror image of the luff for the air to exit from..

The common misconception that A-sails reach better than they run comes from the fact that in the beginning, only sprit boats used them. Since you cannot square the sprit back, you cannot sail as deep, and as a result these sails had more of a reaching shape-hence the confusion. The result is often the misconception that you should not square the pole back as far with the A-sail....but as long as it is designed for this, you can square and project just as much. Once we started using them on boats with conventional poles, we started designing them to have true running shapes, and on most boats demonstrated the ability to match Sym kites for angle, and usually have a bit more speed.

There is some debate about this, and this is my opinion, but as a fairly experienced offshore and buoy racer and pilot, I have yet to hear a sound aerodynamic justification for any Sym kite over the A-sail. And, you can always opt not to use the pole if convenience dictates!!

Not that I have an opinion!