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Bilge water and keel bolts

Andy Rogers

Member II
I know this topic has been raised dozens of times on various different discussion boards and mail lists, but I never felt satisfied with the conflicting information I received. I now have a maintenance question about my '84 E-38 so I'm hoping to get some answers from 80's vintage Ericson owners.

In the one season I've owned Nirvana there has always been a couple inches of saltwater in bilge. I'm not certain how long it takes to fill as our bilge pump doesn't get it dry, but I do know that when spending a weekend aboard we don't hear the bilge pump running frequently (or at all) so I don't think we have a particular fast ingress of water, but it does require some pumping on a weekly basis.

I've looked at the stuffing box and various through hulls and all seem to be dry which leads me to believe that the water is rising up through the keel bolts. Also, there is a rust colored spout of 'goo' that collects on some of the bolts which disperses quickly with a touch. Rubbing any dirt off the bolts exposes a shiny bolt head underneath.

So my questions are:

1. Should I be overly concerned about having persistent standing water in the bilge?

2. Will tightening the keel bolts help? Also, what are the procedures and tools required for tightening the bolt correctly? Should the nuts be replaced? Does anyone have the correct torque figures?

3. What is the best method to seal the hull/keel joint? The PO seems to have sealed the joint with some rubbery-like caulking compound. Should I replace this? Glass it over?

Thanks,

Andy
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
keel rebedding comments

I looked in the archives at Sailnet and found my part of a good thread on this subject. And with the miracle of cut-and-paste, here it is...
____________________________________
To: yacht-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, ericson-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
* Subject: Keel Off - Keel On!
* From: Loren_Beach@xxxxxxxx (Loren Beach)
* Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:04:44 -0800
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... recently asked for experiences in keel re-bedding. Thanks for your
comments, Geoff J.
Well, yesterday the yard lifted the boat off the keel. It needed just a
tap on one of the bolts and then came free with no problem. The rust that
had seeped out was surface only, on the bolt threads, and there were no
structural issues at all. Evidently Ericson had not put a very strong
sealer (or not very much) in the mating joint. That explains the constant seepage around some of the bolts. The mating surfaces were cleaned up and the keel was bedded with 5200, and larger ss washers replaced the rusted ones.
Minimal crane time and minimal labor, at least compared to what it could
have been.
I am just glad to have caught it now before the bolts were compromised --
stainless steel doesn't like being kept wet with no air around it.
Hopefully, the boat can go another 12 or 15 years before needing an
inspection like this again!

Next Monday or Tuesday, they will drop the rudder and see if the diagnosis
is confirmed that the always-stiff steering is due to the shaft being
jammed with fossilized grease and salt crystals. This happened to a friend
of mine, and a clean up resulted in fingertip steering on his boat.
Loren
Olson 34 Far Side, Portland, OR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a final note, the rudder and SS shaft were in fine shape, and the shaft was 'true'. With new grease, it still has more friction at the wheel than it really should but I need to overhaul the cables and wheel bearings anyway.
If you have a haulout planned for bottom maintenance, I would really vote for rebedding the keel. Since that was done, our bilge is normally dusty dry.
Loren

:D
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
My boat is a 1985 which I have owned since 1996. Ever since I bought it, the keel bolts have been submerged (no way to get the bilge pump lower than the bolts). Because of brown stains seeping from the keel joint, I had my keel dropped the first year and rebedded with epoxy. The yard reported that the bolts were in good shape. In short, the nuts have been submerged for probably 16 years and the bolts have been surrounded by water for several without any apparent damage. (Incidentally, when the nuts were screwed down, the yard first put 5200 under the washer to keep the bilge water from getting to the bolts.) Since rebedding the keel, the hull/keel joint has not reopened.
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
My experience is almost identical with Geoff's above. I too had a constant several inches of water in the bilge, but it was my first season with a "real" boat and I was too green to appreciate the import of the water. When the boat was hauled I noticed water seeming OUT of the hull to keel joint. Well, if water can get out, it sure as hell can get in, so I figured I had to have the joint rebedded.

My yard dropped the keel and used epoxy, but 5200 would be a good choice too. Don't bother trying to tighten the bolts unless the boat is on the hard - it won't do anything. And even on the hard it won't stop water from getting in.

When the yard dropped my keel I was VERY disappointed to see that no one at Ericson had even removed the mold release before mounting the keel! I even found the original paper routing slip that the factory used to keep track of the hull stuck to the underside of the keel stub. Must have been hard to keep good help back in 1989...
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Ummmmmm....

Ok - so I am still a new owner (1.5 years) - and I have water in my bilge - although I know now (since I've repacked it) that it's not coming from the shaft....and I know that much water comes in from the rain via the mast so....

Is this something I should be extremely concerned about when I haul out next next month? When I did it last year, I checked and did not noticed any water seeping out at the hull-keel joint - so I guess the only real way for me to tell (right now) is to dry out the bilge (hope it won't rain) and see if it stays dry?

//sse
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
I've had interesting discussions at the yard over this very point. Old time wooden boat sailors were used to their hulls leaking, so a few inches of water was nothing to them. But with a plastic boat that is SUPPOSED to be water tight, the thought of "unknown" water coming in would just bug me too much not to find the source.

So my advice (which is worth about what you are paying for it) is to tighten up on the stuffing box to stop the drips, mop up the bilge, and hope for a few days of no rain. When you come back to the boat the bilge should be DRY. (If it hasn't rained my bilge is dusty dry.) If not, I would sure want to know why. Not so much because a couple of inches of water is necessarily that detrimental (though some folks think it can be for keel bolt corrosion) but because I would worry about the possibility of a more serious root cause for the leak. I wouldn't haul the boat just to find it, but I would work on it the next chance I got.

But that's just me, and I am nothing if not anal about such things. When I'm on a cruise, and I find something not working, my wife has to force me to leave it till later so I don't obsess over the damn thing.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Originally posted by u079721

<snip> (If it hasn't rained my bilge is dusty dry.) If not, I would sure want to know why. Not so much because a couple of inches of water is necessarily that detrimental (though some folks think it can be for keel bolt corrosion) but because I would worry about the possibility of a more serious root cause for the leak. I wouldn't haul the boat just to find it, but I would work on it the next chance I got.
But that's just me, and I am nothing if not anal about such things. When I'm on a cruise, and I find something not working, my wife has to force me to leave it till later so I don't obsess over the damn thing.

Obviously I believe that Steve is generally on the right track... :)
After all, the last thing you would want is for the SS keel bolts on a boat to be slowly corroding away, out of sight, right where they enter the hull laminate.
As a mechanic friend of puts it: "that's why they call it *preventative* maintenance!"
We try to be sure that our summer vacations are not interrupted by breakdowns that were easily preventable. (There are enough unforseen visits by crewman Murphy, without inviting him over more often...)

Best,
Loren
Olson 34 #8
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
Just to add to what I said, I know for a certainty that the water in my bilge comes only from the mast (the keel joint and dripless packing in the stuffing box are watertight). Nevertheless, unless I am missing something, there is no way to get the bilge pump lower that the bottom of the bilge and since it will not pump out lower than 1/2" above the surface it is sitting on, there is no way to keep the keel bolts out of the water. Since there is nothing to be done, I am not going to worry about it.:D
 

Doug Willrich

New Member
keel bolts

regarding the aftmost keel bolt, the area around bolt is deformed ( bolt overtightened at one time??) My ??? is what is the surrounding area built up like. Is it solid within that part of the grid or hollow inside?
Thanks for the responce

Doug
 

FrankZ

Member I
Keel Bolt tightening and 5200

Hello all,

I, too, have standing bilge water and would like not to. First, what type of tool does one need to tighten the keel bolts? Second, can I use 5200 to seal the keel line at the hull without bedding first? I presume bedding the keel means removing the keel, which I'd like not to have to do. The boat's on hard, so I'm hoping just to re-seal the keel to hull line. Should I not attempt to clean out the existing seal and just 5200 right on top of it?

Thanks.

Frank Z.
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Gooping 5200 on the surface won't likely form a lasting seal. I'd dig out all old sealant, and if there's no channel between the edge of the keel and the keel stub, I'd use a grinder to create a 1/4" x 1/4" groove around the whole keel stub, dewax that, and then fill it with 5200.
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
The attached photo was sent to me several years ago by Andy Rogers who started this thread and who owns a 38-3 (1984). (He had to have all of his bolts replaced because the surveyor missed this). It shows what standing water can do to your keel bolts. If water under the nuts can do that, imagine what water that has infiltrated into the keel joint can do. I think rebedding the keel is the way to go. Routing out a groove (once suggested to me) will reduce the mating area of the keel and probably reduce lateral support for the keel.
 

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Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
My answer to the standing water problem was to cover the keel bolts as shown in these photos. The solution worked well except that the bond failed because I used 4200 which is not compatible with PVC. Last winter, when the mast was out and I could get a bone dry bilge, I cleaned the washers down to shiny metal and reinstalled the covers using 4000, which is supposed to work with plastic. The screw on covers are sealed with plumbers thread sealant to make them waterproof but removable for inspection. Before doing this, however, you have to be sure no water is coming up through the bolts from a leaking keel joint.
 

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mkollerjr

Member III
Blogs Author
A trick my surveyor recommended to prevent corrosion of the keel bolts/nuts/washers was to get a small zinc, place it in the bottom of your bilge and attach it to one of the keel bolts with a length of wire. That way, any corrosion that happens will hopefully be contained to the zinc. Since all the bolts are within the same lead keel, they are all bonded electrically together, so only one bolt needs a zinc. I tested this with a multi-meter. There was zero Ohms between any of the keel bolts.

Mark
 

Navman

Member III
Andy,
I think you first have to determine if the water is salt or fresh. If its salt then you have intrusion. If it is fresh it is either the rain coming through the mast or its a plumbing issue ( you can also breath a sigh of relief). On our 38 we found that with the water pressure and hot water heater turned on , if we were not frequently using it there was a leak in one of the fittings. Apparently the build up of pressure enabled the water to seep through the poorly sealed fitting Once discovered it was easily rectified. the pump also turns on less. If it is salt water you have a keel sump seal issue or bolt issue.
Good luck
Don Moran AKA Navman
 
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