• Untitled Document

    Join us on March 29rd, 7pm EST

    for the CBEC Virtual Meeting

    All EYO members and followers are welcome to join the fun and get to know the guest speaker!

    See the link below for login credentials and join us!

    March Meeting Info

    (dismiss this notice by hitting 'X', upper right)

Ericson 27 Achilles Heel - Keel.

Jeff Asbury

Principal Partner
Ericson 27 Achilles Heel - Keel.
Here's a topic I have not heard any mention about on this site. I became aware of it from the Bay Area Ericson Fleet One site. http://www.ericson27.com/
There is very little, if any protection from sinking if one was to puncture the stern part of a E-27 keel. Is this strictly a E27 characteristic? Or are other Ericsons vulnerable? See attached images and link.

This vessel broke loose from a mooring and went on the rocks taking on water through a hole in the keel. The keel has a 1 ft by 6 inch piece of glass missing. It is available at Yacht World.com for $2,500.
http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/...&units=Feet&checked_boats=1453242&slim=quick&
 

Attachments

  • Keel1.jpg
    Keel1.jpg
    72.7 KB · Views: 759
  • Keel2.jpg
    Keel2.jpg
    66.7 KB · Views: 1,008

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Keel notes

Love the ad: "engine turns freely".... :)

Cal, Ericson, and Lord knows how many other boats of all sizes have been constructed with a molded-in keel cavity, i.e. to hold "internal ballast."

Either a one-piece lead casting is then glassed in or, in the case of some Newports I have seen, lead shot is poured in. From the looks of that picture the boat really got pounded hard. Note that the justly-famous Cal 34 has its lead ballast in the forward part of the keel cavity and the "sump" under the cabin sole goes down about four feet!

I have owned one boat with a cast internal-ballast lead keel and two since then with external bolted-on fin keels. All have an ultimate "failure point" that will let the sea in. You put enough force on an underwater apendage and there *will* be a failure point. I have personal knowledge of a Wylie 28 that had it's lead fin keel torn clear off when it drove ashore while missing the Columbia River entrance in the dark. The swamped hull was later salvaged off the beach and completely restored. :rolleyes:

As the sargent used to say on TV (Hill Street Blues): "Be careful out there!"
:eek:

As usual, just my take on it,

Loren
Olson 34 Fresh Air
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
The Hinckley 38 I used to sail was built roughly that way, although it's ballast was external, but had a keel sump behind it that extended down to the bottom of the keel. If the keel sump is well constructed, I think it is more of an asset than a liability, as it allows the collection of a fairly major flood, before swamping your engine, batteries, feet, etc, and gives you a good spot to pump from.

It IS a vulnerable spot though, as those photos show.

On the other hand, if you're hitting the rocks that hard, with the back of your boat, somethings going to give regardless of construction. Under that abuse, a bolt-on external keel probably would have gone through the hull.
 

Jeff Asbury

Principal Partner
Here is the original Alert from the Fleet One Web Site.

Here is the original Alert from the Fleet One Web Site.
Alert: #004
Structure Affected: Keel
Model: Ericson 27
Date: 9/25/01
Severity: Watch Closely

Submitted by: dockmasterted@aol.com

Description:
While it is never any sailors intention to run aground, it is especially important to be aware of your depth when reversing an Ericson 27. The back part of the keel is the sump, and the fiberglass is thin there. If you strike the bottom in this area you WILL OPEN the sump to the sea. And it will fill fast.

Solution:
Know the depth you are backing into.:eek:
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
If the glass there is known to be thin, I think I'd add to that solution, reinforce the glass in that vulnerable area.
 

Jarod

Member III
I was thinking of filling the bottom of the sump on my 27 with epoxy at least the first 6 inches or so.... i think that deep of a sump is overkill anyway...if i lay on the cabin floor and reach i cannot touch the bottom of it...cheap epoxy and hardener and just dump it in...although i have some doubts if it would cure properly or if the heat generated could be an issue as i am not too familiar with the nature of epoxy....i thought that might strengthen it a bit...my boat is out of the water now and that glass is quite thin at the bottom of the keel makes me a bit nervous thinking about it .
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
You could start a fire that way. That much epoxy creates an exothermic chain reaction that will smoke, and can even ignite any flammables nearby. I think you'd have to pour it in about 1/2" at a time.
 

Jarod

Member III
thanks for the heads up Nate I had a feeling that might be the case....take awhile doing it 1/2 inch at a time...
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I'm not sure if polyester resin is different in that respect. I seem to recall that you can't lay that up more than a half-dozen layers at a time though, so it's probably a similar problem. That would be cheaper than epoxy though.

You might have bonding problems though. You'd need to degrease, dewax, and abrade the bottom of the sump before you tried to epoxy it, or else I think the epoxy plug would leak around it's edges if the hull were holed.

How about using pour-in foam? You might need to clean the hull just as well, but it would be cheaper, faster, and just as watertight. I've read of steel boats that have spray-in foam insulating their hulls, that have been holed on a reef, but didn't flood because the foam acted as a second hull, even though the steel hull had been torn.
 

Jarod

Member III
ya it would definately be easier and cheaper...i guess i just forsee water leaking down beside the foam and being trapped against the inside of the keel along with oil etc...i havent used foam a whole lot would it not just float in the sump like a cork?? or would it adhere to the sides of the sump with proper preparation??
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
It should adhere tightly if the surface is properly prepped.

I'm starting to think it would be simplest to lay on 4 or 5 courses of epoxy-saturated glass cloth on the outside.
 

Randy Rutledge

Sustaining Member
I like both fill ideas. If you fill with resin and hit the keel tip you transfer the load up to the top of the fill and break the hull there, if you fill with foam and cap with epoxy and mat you have a yielding keel tip that is now not par of the critical water barrier and the foam is protected from water and oil from the inside. Some foams melt when they are coated with polyester or epoxy resins. A barrier coating of some type may be needed.
 

Joe Benedict

Member II
Filling the void isn't going to solve the problem completely. I commented on this in another post but it is applicable here. When i bought my e29 it had sat in it's cradle for a couple of years. Unfortunately, the keel sat on a steel member of the cradle. Not visible to either me or the surveyor the fiberglass had split under the lead side of the keel. When it was launched water leaked up along the lead and found a way into the bilge somewhere just aft of the forward bilge inspection panel. Filling the void may strengthen it but if the fiberglass splits across the lead/void interface or there is any kind of a path for the water to follow you will take on water. repair was fun because it took days for the keel to drain.
 

Fencer21

Member II
That's about right...

I had read the same thing off of the Ericson 1 E27 fleet (or whatever it's called) from that Bay Area Ericson club. It had listed the vulnerability in the E27 was the area behind keel. Once that area (also known as the sump) is broken the rate at which water is taken on is pretty fast.

They also listed the compensatory measure for that is to know the depth of water in the area you're in, and to NOT go in reverse if you're on the rocks. That would for sure tear up that area and it will fill up the boat with water...fast.

As a matter of fact, 2 years ago I was stupid enough to put my E27 on the rocks out at Lake Mead, my keel was resting on the bottom and I had to have my partner stand in the water (which was waist deep) and push on the front of the boat so I could motor forward off of the rocks and out into deeper water. That little manuever saved me from really screwing up the bottom. Upon closer inspection later on it was discovered that not much damage was done to her. Little if any.

I don't think I need to say this but message to E27 owners, if you're on the rocks facing the shoreline, DO NOT go in reverse, go forward and make a sharp angled turn if possible.

On a side note I was thinking of sending this little tid-bit in to SAIL magazine for the Editor in one of those "Voice of Experience" columns. Who knows I might anyway.
 

Randy Rutledge

Sustaining Member
I sail on a shallow lake and last fall I grounded her hard at about 4 – 5 knots and we had to pull sideways from the mast head to heel her over and get her off. This would cause me to have trouble sleeping if the job didn’t already fill that slot.

I have been thinking (I know that is dangerous) about building a shallow insert for the deep bilge on my 29, this would house an automatic bilge pump to evacuate the runoff from the ice box and not send it to the bottom of the sump. I had planned to have a hole to allow any water buildup in the deep sump to enter the chamber with the auto pump and as an overflow.
After seeing the 27 which is the same as the 29, I think I will flange and seal a bolt in sump and have a threaded overflow hole that can be plugged if needed to stop water from entering from the deep bilge sump.

Question to the Ericson former employees. Is the lead ballast sealed in the chamber it is in or will I have to seal that area also?
 

soup1438

Member II
Channel also present on E25 w/ full keel

I have noticed that I have the same structure in my E-25 w/ a full keel.

Mind you, with an outboard it is uncommon to be "in reverse" except when braking (my first couple of times it felt like I was the Staten Island ferry before I learned that I've got more than my fair share of inertia when pulling into a slip, even going very slow).

Heck, I warp in/out of my slip whenever possible and the bottom is silt/sand anyway.

But, yeah, I wondered about that damn channel; I suspect the reason it's there is because of positioning of the lead ballast didn't need to be that much further back.

I was *very* tempted to find some way to mount the transducer for my fish finder in that channel; a depth of zero would mean I wuz "aground".
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
soup1438 said:
I was *very* tempted to find some way to mount the transducer for my fish finder in that channel; a depth of zero would mean I wuz "aground".
Most fathometers have a "keel offset" setting, so you can either adjust the displayed depth to be below the waterline, or below the keel. Not sure if fishfinders can do that too, but I imagine they can.

Nate
 
Top