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Outhaul and Vang purchase E 38-200

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
I have the boom off and home while doing a bunch of varnish work and am going to rebuild it. All the plastic sheaves in the ends are tired and I'm upgrading the mainsheet blocks. I took out the outhaul last night and found it to be 4:1 via a couple of fiddle blocks and some wire. I plan on keeping the wire where it exits the boom as it seems to last longer in the sun, but the internal parts I was going to upgrade. The outhaul exits the boom and comes back to a horn cleat on the cabintop now. If there is any sort of load on the sail the 4:1 is useless. I plan on losing the horn cleat and going to a cam cleat but I also need to up the purchase. I was thinking of 8:1 via a cascade but don't know if I should look to do more?

Then theres the vang. Currently have 4:1 there via fiddles running back to the cockpit to a clutch. Maybe I have the line run wrong because the lead is just not very fair this way, but thats another story. How much vang do I really need on this boat with mid boom sheeting and a max (per phrf) roach main. I was thinking 12:1...
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Yo Ted!

Well, for the outhaul, I would probably go with 6:1 with a doubler-making it 12:1-you will LOVE this. If you want to keep it simple and cheap, you could stay with the 4:1 and just add the 2:1 doubler-netting you 8:1-that would be the MINIMUM for any realistic adjustability. All of this will fit inside the boom.

For the vang-I think I have said I like the solid vangs. Are you the one who was reluctant to do this because of the hatch interference? The solution to that is to turn the hatch around, but if for some reason you wanted to stay away from the solid vangs, then I would go with 8:1 on a doubler for 16:1. The absolute MINIMUM (for those who want functional use of the vang under load) would be 6:1 on a doubler=12:1. The doubler on a smaller purchase ratio is easier and simpler than the cascade or higher purchase through lots of blocks-once you get above 8:1 you are talking a LOT of line, blocks, and friction. The doubler solves this very cleanly.

Another idea if you don't want the solid vang is the type with a fiberglass batten (the name escapes me right now) and a purchase. The batten ("sort of") holds the boom up, but mostly provides opposite direction pre loading, so you have 2 way adjustment-like a solid vang, but nothing solid. This batten arches up and away from any interference with the hatch. This is my #2 choice, with the purchase/doubler as #3.

I'm sure one of our denizens will chime in the name of that vang type/system-it is another option-and they are sized appropriately for your boat when you order it-in terms of purchase and hardware strength...

See ya round campus!
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
How would you recommend getting to the 8:1? Doing the doubler is easy enough just adding a single to the line exiting the last block then running the control line through the single to a fixed point. A triple and double with becket will get me 6:1, what are your thoughts on getting to 8:1?

Then on the outhaul 12: would be a triple with a double and becket like above running it to a single with the control line runing through the single to a fixed point. I was thinking 3/16 dyneema or vectran then something easier on the hands for the control line. What do you think the loads would be and could I get away with something like ronstan 30s? Trying to keep it small in the boom to avoid conflict with reefing lines and topping lift.

Thanks as always
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
doubled purchase... (get it?)

I'm just going to get Ted a credit card and go park Sequoia next to his boat--- and have him do 2 of everything (not to worry, Ted... I'd come help!). Way to go Ted to show us how it's done!
Chris
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Nice catch, Ted!

Uh, would you believe I was just testing you??:oops: :eek: You caught me!
Pretty hard to do unless you use the Hobie Cat mainsheet system. Go to the Harken website, do a search for "vangs" and you will see many different and interesting approaches. You can also see under "outhaul systems" many options for your internal purchase arrangement. Why re-invent the wheel-those Harken boys know what they are doing! Of course you can use any brand of blocks you want.
As for loading, it has been a while and I don't currently speak Ronstan, but both the Harken and I think Ronstan have load calculating tools on their sites-either way, it does not need to be very big stuff-whatever you would use for a cunningham on a 40-45 foot race boat (you can use this as a reference as you go through the catalogs) should be cool-again, the site should walk you through sizing the blocks to get it right. You are doing some nice stuff to your boat!:cool:

S
 

stbdtack

Member III
outhaul, etc...

I have a 6:1 (3:1 on a 2:1) for the outhaul. Works fine in all but "hard sheeted" conditions.
My vang is a 12:1 (6:1 on a 2:1). I can pull the vang by hand as tight as I have needed.

Finally got to go sailing. The 7:1 mainsheet makes a big difference. I can sheet the boom in hard up to about 15knts of wind.
 

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Seth

Sustaining Partner
That's what I'M talkin' 'bout!

Allright Ben!!! Now we are talking!

My only comment is that while is a 10,000 % improvement in the mainsheet both in purchase and friction, I submit it is still not enough to get proper sheet trim in breezy upwind stuff (but then I sheet pretty hard when going uphill)...BUT>>>> There's more....

The super cool and powerful vang you now have will provide enough "relief" or carry enough of the load on the leech that you actually WILL be able to get enough trim (does that sound wierd?)-kind of "vang sheeting" dinghy style. It is by virtue of having both vang and sheet be powerful that you now have this ability-without that vang, I don't think you would have enough-unless you used a winch for "fine tune" on the mainsheet..

Nicely done, my man!

Later,
S
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Very nicely done indeed! Ben can you email me or post to the site a photo of your mast base and how you have the blocks laid out there? I am looking at a rigidvang now thanks to Seth's comments. My friend who works at the rigging shop here in Annapolis says they have one up in teh rafters of the shop that came off another boat and looks to be in great condition that I may be able to pickup seriously cheaply. This would be cheper than buying all the new blocks I would need to get the 16:1 done with. I need to measure and see if it is the right size though. Ben is you vang running straight over to the deck organizer then aft to the clutch or do you have it double ended to both sides? 7:1 on the main looks very smooth for sure. I think this is exactly how I am going to proceed, slowly though, them damn blocks are expensive. I have been buying lewmar high load racing 60s on Ebay at good levels lately but my boss is giving me grief for being on that site at work...

Also Ben on the outhaul, what size blocks and line are you using? I was thinking of something around ronstan 30's using 3/16 or maybe 5/32 vectran or dyneema inside the boom with something with a nice cover on it for the control line and the exit to the sail, probably 5/16.
 
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stbdtack

Member III
purchase...

Seth you are right, its not quite enough to handle all the sheeting conditions by hand. But I have a tendency to over trim the main anyway so it's a way to keep me in check. The friction doesnt seem to be anymore than with the 5:1. Although I swapped the blocks to Harken Carbos and changed to 3/8" polypro line which runs much easier.
Your vang comment is dead on. I have found that I can use the vang lots more to control the leech tension. Now I sheet in by hand with the vang off and trav down, then bring the traveler up and use the vang to close the leech as needed. It's faster than grinding the mainsheet in("wheres that dam handle?") I still use the winch if I need to get the main "board" flat.

For the outhaul I used the harken carbo 40mm (3:1). Since they are all plastic (sorry "engineered" polymer) they dont clank around in the boom. They pull a length of stripped Vectran which runs back to a small harken hi-load then forward again to a deadend in the boom. The hi-load is attached to a jacketed vectran line that runs around a bb sheave in the boom to the clew car. This is plenty powerful but I would like to find a lower friction car without installing a track. I put UHMW tape in the slot but it tends to slide out after a season. The tef-gel seems to work best between the SS and Alum.

When you say doubler are you referring to 2 blocks connected? I think there are some single line reefing setups that have 2 connected blocks in the boom.
I think of my setup as a cascade system like the vang.

On another note, wondering where folks are running the tack line for the assy spin. I cant decide if i should come back over the house or run down the deck to a clutch. (Block is on the Anchor roller)

Now if it will just stop raining so I can play with the new main......:cool:
 

stbdtack

Member III
deck...

Ted, I posted without seeing your note.....
The vang control line runs straight to the organizer then straight back to a clutch. On the port side I have a 4 sheave with a 2 sheave stacked on top. The vang line has a perfect lead to the top sheave then back to the cockpit, the other one is used for the outhaul. I'm using 1/4" line and the little flip up spinlocks for the vang and outhaul. They are mounted on the supplied wedges so it's a one handed operation.
I think i used 5/32 vectran for the 2:1 inside the boom. 1/4" Sta-set X for the control line through the harkens and 1/4"covered vectran out to the clew.

BTW I think I mentioned it before but the Garhauer bb sheaves fit perfectly in the boom ends. Theyre way cheaper than Harken and make a huge improvement over the plastic ones. They dont rot from UV either.

Yep Harken blocks aint cheap... my port supply account helps but I dont even want to know what I have spent. I did sell my double Lewmar racing block on ebay to defer the cost. You will need a triple/becket for the 7:1.

Here's a pic that shows the layout, if you want any others i'll be on the boat this weekend....if it doesnt rain.
 

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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Thanks Ben this has been veyr helpful. So you are using a 40mm Harken triple, a double with becket and a single high load inside the boom for the outhaul right? I guess there is enough room and the reefing lines don't interfer? Is the bulk of the purchase system at the gooseneck end or closer to the end of the boom? I was looking at loads and it looks like the harkens should be plenty strong. On a personal note I have not been a big harken fan over the years. I used to use them a lot in dinghy programs and found they did not seem to last as long as ronstans and holt allen stuff. Just my opinion there as I know a lot of people are big on harken. For my big boat stuff I have like lewmar blocks a lot as they seem to be pretty rugged.

Looks like you replaced the OEM deck organisers too. Are those spinlock? Did the old bolt holes line up or did you have to make new ones? Finally, you mentioned BB sheaves in the boom. Where did you find them? On the outhaul car I assume you have the little car with 4 plastic wheels? I am making new wheels out of some teflon impregnated delrin. I can probably spin off a second set if you want some?
 

stbdtack

Member III
outhaul, etc...

I have a 40mm carbo single attached to a strap eye just inside the boom cutaway at the gooseneck end. Then a single 40mm with a becket floating in the boom. Thats a 3:1, then the vectran line from the 40mm single/becket back to a Harken hi-load single. I think it was a #304 which has a SWL of 1500lbs. It's the narrow ones made for wire. The Vectran line then comes back forward and deadends at an eyestrap opposite the single block at the forward end, thats the 2:1. The hi-load block is at the aft end and is attached to the covered vectran that goes to the outhaul car.
Most of the 3:1 system is near the fwd end of the boom. The secret for me was using a longer vectran line so I could assemble it in the cutaway then pull it into place and tie off the vectran at the eyestrap. This way I could adjust the total travel in the system. I just coiled the extra vectran and taped it inside the boom. It doesnt seem to interfere with any of the lines in the boom.
So I have a 6:1 system I guess. You could use a single/becket fwd and double aft for a 4:1 x 2:1 for an 8:1. That would be plenty for sure as my 6:1 works great for me.
My outhaul car is just basically a SS slider... no wheels or bearings. I would like to see your set-up. I wonder if I can find something "bearing-like" to fit the std slot on the boom. If not, I'm ok with the function of the current set-up.
The organizers are Harken ESP 40mm. The hole pattern didnt match the old shaefers but I filled them with epoxy and the Harkens covered the old holes.
The Harkens were pretty cheap too. The new spinlocks look really nice, but I'm not sure they are BB .
I agree with you on the Harken blocks. I love the carbo blocks but I wouldnt use them if I was going cruising. I carry spare shaefers. The Lewmar Racing are really bullet proof. I like the Shaefer BB blocks too.
The BB sheaves for the boom are from Garhauer. I used the 30-MH masthead sheaves. 2 3/4"D x 9/16 wide. Theyre a lot cheaper than the Harkens and work great. I put a couple up in the mast head too.
Finally going to a rigid vang was really a plus. Great to get rid of the topping lift. I can pull the boom down low to furl it and let it up to keep the cover off the dodger.
Let me know if you want a pic of any of the parts.
 

Canuck

New Member
The other "fiberglass rod" type boom support is the "boomkicker" - these are 1/2 the price of a solid vang and worked very well on our J/30 for years.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Thanks Canuck!

That was the name I was looking for-thanks!
Ben, yes-when I say doubler I mean take a line from the end of the purchase system that you would normally fasten say, to the vang attach point, run it through a block at that attach point, and back up (in this example) to the tang on the boom-it gives a 2:1 addition(multiplier) to the system-whatever it is you are using-I think cascading is essentially the same thing-but when I think of that I think of multiple cascades-but I think you are right.

GREAT exchanges just now between you guys, BTW-that is all excellent info being shared!
S
 

wurzner

Member III
Watch the Deck Organizer Angles Though

Ben,

Great setup and very clean deck. One thing I did notice that I will post for others considering the same configuration. It would have been beneficial to move the 4 line blocks further aft to the side of the hatch if possible. During our Rendez Vous in Port Townsend, Brion Toss made specific mention of this and I believe he said 45 degrees max is desirable. He pointed this out on multiple boats including mine. In my case, they were already mouunted on the boat and I wasn't going to move them. It is worth noting for anyone else considering adding blocks to limit the deflection as much as allowable. I hope this makes sense.

Shaun
 

stbdtack

Member III
loads...

hi Shaun,
Sure what he said makes good common sense, however like you, I already had organizers mounted there and i wanted to cover the existing holes.
The 4 sheave setup I'm using has a Safe working load of 4000lbs, so i'm not even close to overloading it. I "decored" the mounting holes and filled with cabosil/epoxy for added strength. More importantly the headliner has perfect access to the backing plates at this point, futher back would not be as easy. (checking for leaks is a simple zipper tug)

From an engineering standpoint the max angle isnt critical if the blocks and installation are designed for the load. More important for hi-load is that the organizer bisects the angle of the line so the shear loads are in line with the fasteners.
But you are right, in general less load from less less deflection will translate into less friction.:egrin:
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Getting off topic here but Ben has your nonskid been redone? If so do you know how and are you happy with it?

I have been sick with a bad flu the past few days, but was working over the weekend to finish my head replumbing. Must have caught something there, :eek I got hoses back in along with the tank and eliminated the y valve to direct discharge loop. I have also added a line from the sink drain to the head intake with a valve so I can flush the system with fresh water but dont have to plug the sink drain to get sea water intake. My old boats' head intake was plumbed through the sink drain and we needed a plug in the drain or the head would suck air. In cleaning up the cockpit locker I found about 15lbs and maybe 60' of wire that was not doing anything. Looks like some stuff was redone and they left the old wire. I am now re routing all the wiring and hoses through there to clean it all up. I want to insulate the exhaust hose and the coolant expansion tank as they put off a lot of heat in there, but have not figured out how yet.

Okay now about the boom. Got it home and am going to start compounding and waxing maybe today, flu symptoms willing. Regarding the Garhauer sheaves: when I looked on their site it showed a 1/2" diameter pin size. My pins are 3/8, were yours larger or did you do something different here to use those sheaves on the boom. My masthead sheaves are 1/2". Also at $50 a pop does it really add much to the outhaul and reefing lines? I was thinking of just replacing the sheaves with new plastic ones from Rig rite.
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Ben on the mainsheet. What were the specs on the blocks you used? I was thinking of Lewmar Racing HL 60s but now I am having second thoughts. For starters Lewmar doesn't appear to make a Racing HL 60 triple with a becket. They make the triple but no becket. Then looking at harkens site they recommend 57mm HL Airblocks which have a SWL of 2500 vs Lewmar Racing HL 60's 1763. One thing for sure is that I am sold on your 7:1 system. I just need to decide on what blocks to get me there. You mentioned using some Garhauers too. Which ones and what was the specs if you recall. Thanks a lot this has been very helpful.

As a side not I wonder if we should try to pull this thread and the E 38 mainsheet thread together and strip out the off topic stuff (mostly submitted by me of course)? I guess the search engine will take care of it for those who look later.
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
magic boxes...

Hey Ted, Seth, everyone
I've been reading through all this stuff and admittedly get a little bogged down in all the physics (my eyes cross after I see too many purchase figures). I was thinking of using a magic box on the outhaul... I've seen it done, heard of it done here, and was thinking it might get same result (a bunch more purchase) without too much modification. Only issue is some poor monkey, me generally, would have to go adjust it... but that's no different than now. I figure one of the small ones (5" or so) would do it.
Thoughts?
Chris
 
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