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E 32-2 in Long Offshore Race

windjunkee

Member III
Good morning to all.

We have just received preliminary approval to race our little 1970 E-32 in the Marina del Rey - Puerto Vallarta race in February, 2007. For those not familiar with the topography of the west coast, this is a race of approximately 1175 NM. This gives us almost 14 months to get the boat ready. There are, of course, big projects in mind to get her ready for the race. She has an A-4 with an 18 gallon tank. Just one of the concerns is fuel capacity (not for the race itself, except in an emergency, but for the return trip) Just as a "for instance" I've read threads in here about changing fuel tanks and I gather there is more to this than just figuring out how much space is below (like getting the new tank below in the first place)

We are making a list of projects to be done over the course of the next year. (upgrade the electronics, add a SSB radio, re-seat the ports and hatches, oversize the cockpit drain hoses, etc., etc.) I'm hoping some of you out there will be able to offer suggestions on some project that will make the trip either safer or faster or both. (Seth? Are you listening?)

By the way, it took some lobbying to get in. The last race had a minimum requirement of 35 ft of deck length and a PHRF of 150 or less. We've got a PHRF rating of 180. The only thing the race chair said is that the awards ceremony will go on, whether we're finished or not.

Anyway, any tips/suggestions would be appreciated.

Jim McCone
"Voice Of Reason" E-32-2 Hull #134
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
You know I'm listening, Jim. 2 words: A-sails and a new rudder. Those 2 things more than anything else will make you more competitive and MUCH SAFER. Remember I just did the cabo race on Gypsy, the Columbia 52 "gold plater" from the 70's. We had a crew full of All-Americans (most of our sailing team from UCI), and while we had done extremely well in the past 2 Ensenada Races (A-sails included, but with stock rudder), we were shocked to find the boat almost uncontrollable in 25-30 knts downwind. The boats have some big similarities in underwater shape and although the guys who had sailed the boat in the old days were amazed at how much easier it was to steer in these conditions with the A-sail(did not oscillate side to side nearly as much), the boat tends to wander faster than any driver can react-and it was exhausting. The owner, another collegiate all-american, was convinced not to do any more heavy downwind races until he gets a new rudder.

Not that I have an opinion, but this is where I would start. I will be here for the duration as race date approaches to help out as needed-contact me anytime.
Cheers,
S
 

Masallah 04

Member II
Jim:
Sounds like fun.....Is an SSB radio a race requirement? I've considered installing one myself in order to take part in certain races and the BaHa Ha ha....2007....the feedback I'm getting recently has been to not install an SSB, and to go only with a satellite phone. Both would be nice, but except for daily position updates, SSB's are apparently being used less and less frequently in races.
One upgrade I'd consider is purchasing an asymetrical spinnaker. Downwind at night with a poled out symetrical is a real challenge. I'm sure you know this... Easier, and possibly faster, with an A sail.,,,IMHO
Need crew?.....have fun.
Alan
E35MKII
 

Lawdog

Member III
long distance

I had an E29 for many years. You should check your standing and running rigging, especially if over 10 years since the last replacement, add an emergency vhf antenna off the stern rail, and check all through-hulls. One thing that I noticed was that the laches securing the deck hatches were not through bolted on either the deck or the hatch, and both have failed after having been caught by jib sheets in strong winds. I have now thru-bolted the laches on both sides to prevent this. I also had some deck hardware, including an entire stern rail, pull out for the same reason, no thru-bolts and backer plates--very important. I was 500 miles off the coast at the time, and got hit by a huge wave that took the entire stern rail and reserve fuel and water tanks tied to them--not fun. You might also want to consider adding some additional keel wings, ala www.marsmetal.com/newpages/keelhome17.html which will add tremendous stability both down wind and sailing upwind later, especially if you are shoal draft like I was. While you're at it, serving the winches is not that hard and most people never do it. I would also add a water separator in the fuel line and service the carb before I went. I had a freshwater cooled A4 so I didnt have to worry about the engine rusting out, but added the electronic ignition which made a huge difference. I dripped some marvel mystery oil in the throttle and transmission cables to smooth them up as well. I had single lifelines, which I replaced but never felt good about, especially offshore, and probably would have installed the second lifeline if I were to go offshore again. Finally, I repainted the foredeck with antislip paint to add traction just in case.
good luck in the race.
Neal
Enterprise E38/29
 

windjunkee

Member III
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the responses and the tips. I can tell you, first off, that we have done a bunch of work on the boat over the past 10 months we've owned her. I have redone the non-skid completely. We just recently replaced all lifelines AND stanchions, put all spectra halyards in, added a hydraulic backstay adjustor, increased the size and capacity of the alternator, rebuilt the A4, checked and tested all thru-hulls, scraped all the old bottom paint (35 years worth, apparently) and repainted the bottom. All the standing rigging is less than 2 years old and had all of it checked by a pro in the last couple of weeks.
Over the next year, we will add at least one A-sail, new carbon main and at least a #2 and/or a #3 genoa. We will upgrade the instruments, re-seat and re-seal all ports and hatches, maximize the cockpit drains, add an auto-pilot. We already have radar, chartplotter and the other usual instruments.

We are also discussing Seth's recommendation of getting a bigger, deeper rudder, though my partner has some concern about the drag effect of a fairly significant increase in wetted surface.

As for the SSB, I read in the '05 Race Instructions that SSB was required. Perhaps in the '07 race, competitors will be given the option of SSB or satellite telephone. If we're given the option, I would choose option B. I don't want to go through the hassle of wiring up the boat with the antenna if I don't have to. The purpose, of course, is for daily check-in and course management. I suspect that both options would acheive that purpose.

Anyway, lots of work to do. As I have described to friends and sailing buddies who may participate in some aspect of the trip (race, mexico cruising or delivery back home), "the race itself will be gruelling, arduous, physically and mentally exhausting . . . and an experience that you will cherish and remember for the rest of your life."

sail on

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32 Hull #134
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
On the right track

Jim,

You are 100% on the right trrack-as to your partner's concern-it is a 100% NON issue. Not even close. Zip, Nada, Zilch. The .001% you might lose, and ONLY in the lightest of conditions reaching will more than be offset by:
a). Noticably higher pointing-especially in those lighter conditions
b). More precise steering means less overall rudder movement-and we all know how much we tend to move those little rudders around just to keep her going in a straight line, and less movement equals less drag-again offsetting the small extra area
c). In the heavier downwind/reaching stuff, part "b" certainly still applies, and you can now add the fact that you be able to carry the kite into much higher wind than you could with the little rudder-which could be as much as a knot or more faster than going with a poled out genoa-and don't kid yourself, yours truly and the gang of all stars I was with on the Columbia 52 in the last Cabo Race were reduced to taking the kite down by the time we hit 25 knots of wind! I have not had to do that since I can ever remember-meanwhile the modern guys carry thier kites up into the high 30's. If this group could not keep the boat under control, I don't know who could-we needed a bigger, more modern rudder-period (and the owner is getting one). Again, this is much more than a wash against the extra area.
Not that I have an opinion....

I would say (as a fan of this generation of boats for these races) that if I were to do this, I would probably go with the Ericson 35-2 or the Ranger 33. Both were just slightly better downwind boats (both still need bigger rudders for this kind of sailing). If you are already heavily invested on the 32, then full steam ahead!

But seriously, Jim-you are doing all the right things, and will end up with the nicest 32-2 around-probably by a long shot.

Not that I have an opinion..:devil:
 

hodo

Member III
SSB was a great help in the Vic Maui racew, as we were able to download weather faxes onto our laptop. Also consider if your nearest help would have a sat. phone or SSB. Check your race requirements closley, and get inspected earlyin case you need to change something. Have fun, we are prepping for Vic Maui 06. Harold
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Regarding weatherfax, we know a couple that managed to access this during a two year trip to central America using a shortwave receiver and a laptop computer. They say it had it limits, but the price was right (since they were taking a computer with them anyway).

Loren
 

Lawdog

Member III
E32-2 in offshore race

You had concerns about the rudder extension. I extended my E29 rudder, (I have pics I can post) and it made a huge difference going down wind and upwind in anything over 15kts, with no noticeable drag effects. The 32 rudder is similar to the E29 rudder, in that as the rudder gets deeper, it has less surface area, kind of like an upside down shark's fin, so as the boat heels more, you have less control. I was amazed at the improvement in tracking downwind, and my ability to go up wind in stronger breezes, and avoid broaching, as broaching was common before I extended the rudder. After all, why shorten sail if you dont need to? Shortening sail means you have to put the beer bottle down while heeling and do work.

Neal
Enterprise
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
SSB Install

:offtopic:
Does not have to be as hard as everyone makes it.

I have installed about 30+ of them on smaller boats for folks and we have kept it pretty low key and easy on the install and on the wiring.

SSB or ham rig, (used from a reputable ham dealer), Tuner (again used from a reputable ham dealer), couple of wires from the batteries to the radio, a little coax, some GTO wire from the tuner to the backstay, a wire clamp, a little bit of copper foil that we can run here and there in your boat for a half way decent ground plane (Nothing insane mind you, mostly under the cockpit to the engine area), your laptop, a cable from the laptop to the radio headphone port, and a piece or two of free software and you are there. You have a communications method and a way to get GOOD weatherfaxes.

If you use some industrial velcro for mounting the radio to a shelf here and there, we can be done with the whole thing in about 3 hours...

Note there are a lot of things that are not listed here, they were left off on purpose, rigging mods ect included...... WAY WAY cheaper than a sat phone..... Also a lot more reliable in my experience, and more fun to use....

Guy
:)
 

windjunkee

Member III
Ok Seth,

I'm now looking into some of your suggestions. The two big ones are, of course, the new rudder and the A-sail. As for the rudder, I've heard three possible suggestions about this 1) get a new one fabricated. As far as I can tell, this requires a NA to design one that will fit the angle and size of the rudder shaft, then have it fabricated and installed. I have a call into Alan Andrews to get some ideas about this. Any suggestions on materials? I know if we decide to take this route, I don't want the same sort of stubby, fat design thats on there.
2) The second suggestion is to pirate one from something like a Catalina 36 and modify it to fit. this was the suggestion from Dave (don't remember his last name) but is a co-owner of "Pendragon" and now runs Sea Tek in Wilmington. He says this is wayyyy cheaper.
3) modify the one we have. This is the least attractive option to me.

The other issue is the A-Sail. I'm just starting to think about this one and, apparently, Sam Heck is out of town so I can't consult with him. Do we need any modifications to the boat to fly this sail?

By the way, my partner and I are signed up for the 5 day J-World racing class at the end of February. I'll bet we will learn quite a bit. I'm looking forward to it.

Jim McCone
"Voice of Reason" E-32 Hull #134
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
mods

Hey there!!

Well, you are talking to the right folks...

For rudders, Alan has done the best work, and is the best person to suggest materials for a new rudder. He IS pricey though, but this will get you the most performance. If you take another rudder and modify it (for example, there is a Cal 40 rudder mod being adapted for the 35-2), it WILL be an improvement-and likley a good one, but not as much as one designed b y a pro for your boat.
I think I know this Dave guy at Seatek (I have known Alan Blunt for years).

Your 3 choices are right, and the results decline in the expected order (no worries-a new design will look NOTHING like the original). New one designed by a NA, modified from another design, and modifying your existing-this is really the last option.

You will have to consult yout pocket book-also check with Steve Brown at Finco fabricators in Santa Ana-he has a lot of the E rudder molds, and can make you something that will be a good compromise-let him know you are talking to me about this-I have discussed this with him beforei.

A-sails: You really don't need much-except the ability to run a tackline back to the cockpit. Mount a block as far fwd as you can, and make provisions to run it parallel to the forguy back to the 'pit-exactly how this pans out depends on your deck layout now-if you can post a pic, I can give you some better advice. The sheets and guys will go to the same places as before.

BTW-Steve Heck is a good friend of mine-and one of the best offshore sailors around-send my regards when he gets back!

Cheers,
S
 

wurzner

Member III
I Replaced My E32-2 Rudder- An Abosolute Must Do!

I had the old Foss person in So Cal build me a new rudder based on the Cal 40Design and it made a HUGE Difference. My motivation was more based on the potential of it being saturdated and ultimately breaking off. I was out in what ended up being 45 knot winds with an opposing tide for the ride back to everett, wa. I can say without doubt that while driving was chore, it would have been impossible with the old rudder. I had great experiances with the quality and fit of the new rudder and the price was reasonable. Since their is a cutaway where the rudder forward about 10 inches down from the top, it helped having the previous builder do the new rudder. If this wasn't the case, I think it would be helpful to have someone local do it or ship the rudder to the fabricator. Shipping would be around 100$ down the west cost if I'm not mistaken.

I've had my E32-2 out in up to 60 knots on puget sound in a race and while it took a lot of knocks, it stabalized nicely. A 2nd reefed main and a storm jib and the boats can really take it. Increasing cockpit drainage is an issue though. I would encourage you to either add 2 more drains in the main cockpit or open up a method to have the main cockpit drain into the drivers cockpit and ultimately out the back of the boat. Having filled mine a few times, the drainage time is not good.

Good luck on your race.

Shaun
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Too cool

Shaun,

So you used the CAL 40 based rudder on your 32-2?? Ultra cool-I was only aware of 35-2 guys doing this-pretty big rudder, but as they say, it is hard to have too big of a rudder-notice any loss in the light stuff? I doubt it.

This is a real option-the advantage of a custom design is that you will be the best possible fit at the top-where it matters most, and have the lightest rudder-which is also important, and have a current, modern foil shape. But as you can see-even going the mod route will get you a much better handling boat-you will have to decide how much the incremental gain from a lighter, more form fitted rudder (with current foil shape, too) is worth.

Carry on!
 

windjunkee

Member III
Just a quick update,

Seth, I spoke with Alan Andrews and explained what I was looking for and why. He suggested two alternatives -- to design and construct a CF blade AND a CF rudder shaft (which in ballpark figures, might be $4000 for construction and 3000 for architecture).

He then said depending on the quality of the shaft itself, he should be able to design and build a CF blade only to go on the existing shaft. He asked me to give him some feedback on the size of the shaft and whether it is reinforced at all at the point the shaft passes through the hull. I was able to measure the stainless steel at the tiller post, but the shaft was filled with foam, so I couldn't see if there was any reinforcing sleeve on the inside.

He said he would have to do the math to see if the S/S shaft could handle the additional load of a deeper, high-aspect-ratio blade. He thought the build of just the blade might keep the cost down to $4500 or so.

Then I spoke with Sam, who suggested I talk to Dennis Choate at Dencho Marine. Sam said they were doing a rudder mod on a 35 right now. Sam believes that no architecture is necessary based on the way the keel and rudder are set up now and thought that Dennis would be able to do it for alot cheaper than Alan. Sam said Alan is one of the best in the country, but he's also priced accordingly. I went down to Dencho but Dennis wasn't there. I'm planning to go back this week.

By the way, Sam has "Medicine Man" in the Dencho shop right now, doing a reconfig on the aft 20 feet. They're doing the San Diego/Puerto Vallarta race next month.

I'm meeting with Sam tomorrow to have Ullman make a kevlar main for us.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
That is what I would probaqbly do

Funny-I was out at Choate's place last week to see the "Man" undergo it's latest metamorphosis-started life as an IOR-ish 56' mini sled, then they jacked the deck up and drove a new 61' hull underneath it and put in a turbo rig from one of the 70's-the spin pole for the A-sails is now 28' long IIRC. This time, they have widened and extended the back end-bringing it out to near 65', and the cockpit is now so wide the very cool tiller (a trademark of the boat) has been replaced with twin wheels-looks like a mini VOR 70!

In any case, you have done ALL the right things-the ultimate solution is the Alan route (although he would likely have Choate make it anyway), and while I did not see the 35 Sam mentioned when I was there, they might be doing that job at the boatyard.

I have no doubt that Choate could do exactly as Sam suggests, and for a lot less....maybe not engineered with the same detail, but reasonably light strong and safe (and fast). I endorse this 100%. As for "Choater the boater", don't be put off by his seeming indifference or gruffness-this is just how he is (sometimes)-just put your project out there and see what he says. Normally (at least back in the day), the best thing is that once you have agreed to the job-stand back and let it fly-he does his best work without an owner lurking over his shoulder-and you will get a NICE product!

He may have mellowed in recent years-so run this idea by Sam, who has stayed close to him as to the best way to work with him-you can share with Sam what I am saying-as long as it is presented in a good light (this is how I mean it-I have been sailing Choate built boats for 30 years).

Give Sammy a "shout out" for me!!

Later,
Seth
 

wurzner

Member III
The way the rudder post is fabricated is the shaft continues through the blade toward the end of othe rudder. On the for and aft edeges, the welded thick stainless plates with large holes 4~5 inches wide so the foam can bond to itself on both side of the rudder. While the prospects of lossing a rudder are significant, I think the design is pretty beefy. As I mentioned, I put a larger rudder on my boat and have been out is some really ugly stuff. When I say ugly, once it was 45 knots and the 2nd time we saw gusts up to 60. It was a race so we all had a set course and beating to windward,we saw some really step waves. Here in the NW, we often see 2+ knots of current and when you through in high winds, it gets really nasty. Also, it last years Swiftsure race from Victoria BC out the staigths of Juan de Fuca, I believe only 153 boats finished out of ~240 that started due to 40 knots of wind and opposing currents. Out of all the damaged boats, none lost their rudder and that was in 12 foot plus waves. There was a lot of rigging, pulpit, and sail damage, as well as a few keel issues. The point I'm trying to make is I don't think the rudder is that big a liability to put 4 to 7k into. Perhaps you could fill the post with an expoxy/graphite mixture to strengthen it, but a new design is a great investment but I don't think the reliability is the driving factor.

I'd be curious to see how they calculate the required load for a rudder? Also, has anyone on a 32 or 35 lost their rudder? There is a pretty big statistical population out there so if it is a risk, lets here from other folks who have experianced it or have heard of it happening.

One area I would look at though is making sure the pulleys for the where are strengthened up. I can tell you mine are ok, buy I read elseware that they are succeptable to detaching. You may be using the rudder in which case it is not an issue.

Seth, do you know of any historical warranty issues related to rudders fracturing?

Good Luck
shaun
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Rudder losses

Shaun,

The good news is that this was never an issue during my time there-either with the older, out of produciton models or the current boats. In fact, I can't recall a single case-although there must be one or 2. The rudder engineering seems to have been very sound.

S
 

windjunkee

Member III
ok, this is fun.

Seth, I took your suggestions to the experts I know around here, all of whom know you, oddly enough.

As for the rudder, my experience with Dennis Choate was exactly how you described it. I told him we wanted a deeper, high-aspect-ratio rudder for our E-32. He asked if I wanted to keep the same rudder shaft. I said yes. He said "$2500. Get a diver to help take it off, get it down here, it'll be ready in 30 days."
"errrrr .... do you want to meet and discuss? I have photos of the bottom and the current rudder".
"Nope, don't need to. Know what an E 32 looks like. $2500, bring me the rudder, 30 days".
"errrrrr, ok."

As for the assym, Sam said "Why?" He said, the trip to PV is a reach to turtle bay, a run to cabo, a reach across the gulf turning to a run to banderas bay, mostly in light air. He said we would benefit much more to have a 1/2 oz and a 3/4 oz in the quiver because we'll use them much more often. He said in the area we're likely to see winds piping up over 25-30 is where the heading is most likely a reach, and we can fly the genny for that.
He suggested we dump the radar to reduce the weight aloft to improve performance.

I'm looking to upgrade the instruments too, since our wind instrument sucks. Its an old Standard Horizon which they don't even make any more.
Any suggestions on a package or manufacturer? I'm looking probably to upgrade wind, depth and speed, with the ability to run another multi-display that will give digital true wind direction as well having the display for wind speed and wind point.

Oh, we're doing the J-World race class at the end of February.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E 32-2 Hull #134
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
windjunkee said:
I'm looking to upgrade the instruments too, since our wind instrument sucks. Its an old Standard Horizon which they don't even make any more.
Any suggestions on a package or manufacturer? I'm looking probably to upgrade wind, depth and speed, with the ability to run another multi-display that will give digital true wind direction as well having the display for wind speed and wind point.

I had the opportunity to help deliver a Baltic 38 this summer, which had extensive B&G instrumentation. Wow! I absolutely loved that setup. Every display head is fully customizable to show a variety of data on any display. There were 2 heads at the nav station, two in front of the helm, and three over the companionway. I've never felt so informed! You could put the information right where you wanted it for the particular conditions you were in, or priorities you had at the time.
 
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