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Jack Lines

Kim Schoedel

Member III
As a new owner of Windfall, 1984 35-3 I realize how spoiled we have been with our 30 Catalina in which did have Jack Lines. Already getting tired of doing the chicken dance on the deck trying to get the Main flaked, tied and all the wrestling involved. Wondering if anyone can guide me in the right direction for an available package with directions for installation. Thanks

Kim
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Jack lines?

Do you mean "lazy jacks"? This is a set up where the mainsail is controlled so it does not fall on either side of the boom and more or less is "self-flaking"...and certainly contained..

If so, far and away the best one (and best engineered) is the Doyle Stack Pack system. This is a sail cover/lazyjack set up that is usually sold with a new mainsail, but if your main is in EXCELLENT shape, it is worth converting.

Another approach is to keep your old sailcover and just use the lazyjacks, in which case Harken makes a nice kit-go to Harken.com, click on "mainsail handling", and you will see them. Finally, if you know a local rigger, he/she can put this together for you as well.

"Jack lines" usually refer either to safety lines running the length of the deck to which your harness is clipped-so you can move around the boat-OR, the other definition refers to a line on the luff of the mainsail(threaded through the slides) which allow the slides to stay in the mast, yet allow the luff to pull away slightly for reefing (for example so your reef tack fitting can reach the reef hooks with out pulling the slides out of the mast).

If that is what you need-any sailmaker can do this for your mainsail at minimal cost-and yes, many Cat 30's have them.

Hope this helps,

Seth
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Flaking the Main

http://www.ezjax.com/

I have sailed quite a bit on an Ericson with this system and it really works well. They retract to each side of the mast once the sail is hoisted. Well designed and engineered, IMO.

Loren in PDX
 

Blue Chip

Member III
Blue Chip came (1990) with a system I have only seen on one or two other boats on the west coast. Picture two metal "sticks" about 3 feet long on each side of the mast. Each is about 2 inches wide. You pop them up when you lower the sail, and it drops right into their waiting arms. When not being used, they swing parrallel (spring Loaded)to the mast and are hardly noticed. I've always heard it was an east coast system, but can not verify. Sorrry I don't know the name of the system, but we sure have people watching when we drop the sail in the Oakland Estuary.
Mark May
on the Bay
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Yo, Blue!

Got any pis of this? Sounds interesting yet based on the description you gave, I am not familiar with it....

Over..
S
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
At the risk of tooting my own horn.

I go in for the traditional.

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/tamers.htm

Will get you to a copy of the article I wrote for Good Old Boat on this some time ago.

Cheap easy, and will keep you married after 50 thousand miles.... (Really that was always the biggest argument we had taming the main during the drop. HEAD INTO THE WIND....I AM INTO THE WIND...NO YOU ARENT......Etc.) It also makes reefing a snap!

Guy
:)
 

Kim Schoedel

Member III
Lazy Jacks

Thanks for all the responses! I will search for the appropriate setup. Yes, the full battens can catch on the lines when raising the main, but I feel this minor problem is by far outweighed by the foul language and wrestling that takes place while doing the chicken dance on the deck during the tedious task of lowering and flaking of the main with a few wind shifts just to make things interesting. The stick setup sounds very interesting and would enjoy any more info on this if possible.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Don't know about the "sticks", but just so you know, Lazy Jacks and full battened mainsails are not married to each other. Lot's of folks have the lazy jacks with conventional battens, or with the 2+2 set up (top 2 full, bottom 2 normal). Either of these GREATLY reduces the batten hang up issue. I don't know where you are with your main-is it currently full battened? If so, try it, and you can always convert it (if the sail is fairly new). If has "normal battens", and you want to keep it-install the lazy jacks first, and sail for a season before converting the sail to full or 2+2.

Finally, if you want to include a new main in the mix, get the stackpack-you get lazy jacks, new mainsail (any batten configuration you want) and a new cover. The lazy jacks are attached to the cover, so that becomes the "cradle" into which the sail falls-pretty slick. This makes sense if both the main and cover are long in the tooth-otherwise it is expensive.
Cheers,
S
 

Mindscape

Member III
Stack Pack

Seth - can you retro fit a Doyle Stack Pak to an existing main? If so is it worth it?

TIA.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Absolutely!

You sure can-and if your sail is in GREAT shape-it is definitely worth it. Also, when you send the sail for conversion/adaptation to the Stackpack, you can specify full or 2+2 battens (or no batten change, but I would go at least 2+).

However, if your sail is over 5 years old, or a bit tired, it is not worth it. They may try and talk you out of converting, but if your sail is well built, has good shape (i.e. you like it), and has plenty of life left, then for sure you should do the conversion. I don't recall the percentage off for using your old sail, but they will quote it both ways-the whole enchilada or converting your main.

Cheers!
S
 

Blue Chip

Member III
"Sticks"

Going down to the boat Thursday to see if all that rain in the bay area managed to get into the boat. I will look at the book we keep on board and see if iIcan find a brand name or something to send to you. I have two great pictures in my "picture file" in this contraption, but Ihave absolutely NO idea how to attach pics to these messages.
Mark May
on the Bay:
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Off Topic--- File attachment

I hate to get off topic, but file attachment is not difficult in this forum set-up... just a little different than we're used to:
re-size the file so it's not gigantic (800x600 pixels or less)
click "manage attachments" in the options section below the regular reply area.
"browse" to look for your new resized file on your computer, then "upload" to attach it to your message.

You can also click the web address for a picture if it's out on the web, but that is bandwidth hijacking and frowned upon :unsure: unless you are paying for said bandwidth.

Hope that helps, I'd love to see those pictures too!

Chris
 

Mindscape

Member III
Sail Caddy

I thought I remembered those 'sticks' to hold the sail. Try the following link: http://www.sailcaddy.com/. There is a picture in the images section of these installed on an 'Erickson 29'. Bluechip - is this your boat???
 

Mindscape

Member III
Converting to the stackpak

Seth - I think the sail is in good shape, and the guy that sold it to me a couple of years ago assured me it was a great sail and the perfect shape for my boat. He worked for Doyle and said something about how he used to work for Ericson... The guy did a bunch of sailing, on race boats and stuff, in fact he was located right here in Chicago and I 'met' him on this board. If only I could remember his name......:egrin:

PS - couldn't be happier with the sail.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
Stack pack versus Lazy Jacks...

Ok I can't be quiet anymore. :devil:

The new boat has a stack pac on it, genuine doyle product. It doesn't work well even at the dock so far. I will experiment with it more once the boat is sailing, which should be the end of the month. It seems like a half designed beta product. At the dock it made a mess, and with the permantly afixed upper connection wiht virtualy no room for adjustment, It is going to interfere with the mainsail a lot. When I spoke wiht the local doyle guys they just said, "Yeah it does interfere with the set of the main, so what?"

Initial dock tests seem to indicate it functions nothing close to as well as a good set of lazy jacks, and at something like $6K for my boat, I can't see what the advantage was??? This seems to be the issue with most of them that I have seen. Two other owners of them I have known have used my directions to remove them and to install lazy jacks. I never sailed on their boats, just got the e-mail as the author of the article that said "You (me) were right on, and it worked a lot better". Having not sailed with a stack pack yet, I admit there may be something I am missing.

I can't see how it is that your lazy jack could get in the way of raising the sail, they are against the mast at that point. Or if you have the other style, well they are just plain wrong... They need to be controled so they can be raised and lowered. Why whould you want them there all the time, interferes with the sail, chafes the like...How in the heck would you get your sail cover on??? Lazy jacks should be deployed after the sail is up, when the sail is ready to come down or reef, not before. Otherwise they are in the way all the time......

Just my $.02 worh.

Guy
:)
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
How embarrassing

Frank, D'oooohhh! Yes, your main can and should be converted-sorry about that-your screen name does not click when I think of Frank Bunker- sorry..

Guy,-That stinks that you had this experience with your local Doyle guy..Where are you? In any case-a couple of things: it is true that SOME lazy jack systems are held forward, but not all or not even most in my experience (but I like it better your way). The Doyle system, like most others, does not go forward, and it can't, since the lazy jacks also support the sail cover/cradle. The trick with these things is a proper installation and set up. Once it is properly set up, they work really, really well-and when I say I think it is the best, I say that in the context of the other SIMILAR systems which also incorporate the cover/cradle into the lazy jack system. It is not meant to compete with straight lazy jacks-which may or may nt go forward.

The experience you had is really annoying to me-I could intervene if you want on your behalf so they can get it set up correctly, or if you like, I will work with you via direct email or phone to give you some insight into the specifics of setting it up and adjusting it-I think I still have a manual for one.

It was having coworkers like these guys who made it easy for me to retire from that business. My feeling is that that is not how they usually treat their clients-certainly they shouldn't..

Let me know how I can help you-I'll be happy to.

Best,
S
 
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Ray Rhode

Member III
Kim,

You might want to consider a Mack Pack,

http://macksails.com/mackpack.htm

It is simpler than the Doyle system and requires no modification to the main. I have one on my E-35 and a friend has one on his E-32 and we both like them very much. Quality is very good.

Ray Rhode
S/Y Journey
E35-III, #189
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Mack's OK

The Mackpack is a local sailmaker's answer to the Stackpack, and while it is not quite as well developed, it will work fairly well. If you have a great relationship with someone at Mack, that is what drives the decision more than anything.

Lest I be accused of making a vague and unsupported comment, I will explain the primary differences and why I say these things.

There are 2 key areas of difference-both of which in my opinion make a SLIGHTLY lesser product-and certainly much less expensive to build, and hence purchase:

1). In the Mackpack, the lazy jacks are passed through grommets on the sail cover, and then fastened (tied) to eyelets on the bottom of the boom, whereas the Stackpack lazy jacks are led to the TOP of the cover-with one end of each 2:1 purchase led to a small cleat sewn near the tack of the mainsail. The negatives in this (on the Mackpack) are that you have between 3-5 eyelets on the bottom of the boom-which are sources for chafe of Genoa and spinnaker/gennaker sheets, and potential headknockers, while the Stackpack has nothing screwed or riveted onto the bottom of the boom which could cause trouble, and even better, the lazy jacks can now EASILY be adjusted in tension right at the tack of the mainsail-where you are relatively safe. To adjust the tension on the MackPak you must untie and re-tie each end of the lazyjacks at each eyelet-while working upside down on the boom-sometimes near the end of the boom (to get a proper adjustment it is best to do this while sailing)- potentially not very safe. For the Stackpack you just go to the tack of the main and uncleat the line (one on each side), "season to taste", and re-cleat.

The other issue, and this is the one with the biggest cost impact (although you can see the Stackpack system is already more sophisticated, and those features cost more to build than going right to the bottom of the boom): The sailcover/cradle on the Stackpack is actually SEWN onto the mainsail! This is actually a pretty big deal, because without this feature, the cover can and will flap in the breeze-which can be noisy. The covers on the Stackpack lay flat (ish) against the sail and do not flutter in the breeze. Less windage, noise, and wear and tear=longer life and better performance. The method of attachment of the lazyjacks to the cover means that when adjusted correctly, the cover stands proud at anchor, since it is supported directly by the lazyjacks and the full length battens (which the Mackpack ALSO does not have) provide a great looking, non-baggy appearance. Take a look at the photo on the Mack website and you see a cover with that looks baggy and has the lazyjack lines laying against the cover, while if you look at the Stackpack website you see a more attractive, upright cover. Finally the Mackpack requires undoing one side of the cover to get the sail all the way down and put to bed, but because the stackpack stands up stiffly, and has access near the mast for this, once you have it adjusted right, the ONLY thing you have to do is unzip the cover and hoist, and to drop it, just let 'er down..if the slides are a bit sticky and you need to give them a hand, you do not have to loosen or "undo" anything-there is access already in the front of the cover.

There is nothing wrong with the Mackpacks-they work fine, and cost less because there is less to them. The Stackpack (again, when correctly set up, Guy!) looks better, lasts longer, does not flap in the breeze, and is functionally slightly superior. I think for their respective price points they are both great-but they ARE different. I NEVER want to type ANYTHING ending in "pack" again!

Puff pant,
S
 

JORGE

Member III
stackpak uppers question

I have the stackpack also and have one set of eyestraps on the mast for the lower lines to mount, which are 3-4' above the boom. But the upper lines were only tied to the spreaders about 15' above the boom (E32-1)

According to the original directions I found aboard, the stackpack uppers should be tied just below the "masthead".
The Doyle company responded to me recently with some newer instructions for current(?) stackpack.... stating that the upper lazyjack lines should be at 55% up for the size of the mast.
Which do you feel is right?
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
55%!!

Yes, the upper lazy jacks should attach about 55% up, certainly NOT near the masthead (this must be a misprint). A little above midway between the spreader sets is an other rough location.
Cheers,
S
 
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