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Spinnaker dimensions....

stbdtack

Member III
dimensions...

Hey thanks Chris.
Congrats on the blog, i'll look fwd to reading!
Where is your boat in Solomons? I'll be down there thursday afternoon. A buddy keeps his boat at Calvert.

Ben
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
38 asym dimensions...

Hi Ben,
Here are those dimensions...
Asymetric Luff (ALU)=52.50'
Asymetric Foot (AF)= 24.00'
Asymetric Max Girth (AGM)=24.5

It's a UK Tri Radial Flasher and is not cut very deep, but it is really nice for broad reaching. I've got a North deep runner on my sail wish list- but the "reacher" style cut will definitely get more use.
I've found the sail works best with the tack adjusted to sit right at the top of the bow pulpit and we do "outside" gybes.
We're at Z's over on E dock- she's the boat in dire need of more buffing (which I'm hiring done this year - I buffed until my arms almost fell off last year!)
Hope this helps,
Chris
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
numbers, numbers

Just to be clear, the "Max girth" Chris refers to is the maximum measured girth on HIS sail-not the max "allowable" under any rule or formula.

In fact, at 24.5 AMG, his sail is very much on the small side for a spinnaker-Girths (the widest dimension-usually at 50% of the luff) are a function of the J dimension, and for racing sails (when they are full sized), the maximum allowable girth is 1.8 X J, or in your case that would be 29.34 feet!

For cruising spinnakers, the typical "AP" sail-designed for good all around performance, will come in anywhere between 1.65 and 1.7 X J. Yet Chris' Flasher comes in with the same girth (comparable to the LP in genoas) as a 150%-which is quite small.

What does this mean? It means that the small size and flat cut he alludes to (correctly) will produce a sail that will sail closer to the wind than a deeper, larger sail, and not be as fast or stable at deeper angles (broad reaching for example). It also makes for a good heavy air sail.

There is nothing wrong at all with the UK Flashers-just a different philosphy (and cost-one of the reasons they are so well priced is that they are smaller).

When comparison shopping, be sure to compare quoted sail areas.

Nitpicking completed. Thanks.
S
 

Roger Ware

Member III
more numbers

Seth and I had a lengthy debate about this very question before I ordered my Asym from him 2 years ago. The luff generally works out to be about the same as the "I" measurement, so 50 ft for a E38. North uses a Pythagorean formula, I think, of .95 X sqrt (I^2 + J^2) (length of your forestay) - but that just gets you about back to "I".

Mine is a lot "girthier" than Chris' I think, but I dont have the number.

Cheers, Roger, Kingston, ON
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Sheesh...:0305_alar
Yep, that's my maximum girth on that particular sail.
Let's not forget that the sail came with the boat. Although, I will say- having some experience with both seriously flat close reachers and gigantic deep runners, that I think it's a fun sail and might have ordered it anyway. I will re-iterate my quote from previous post: I've got a North deep runner on my sail wish list
I think that knowing your sailmaker and telling him/her what you're most likely to use it for are very important. Don't forget that if you really want to run deep, you might want to consider a symetrical with big shoulders and run a pole- you can still use a sock to simplify the launch and douse.
Discussions like this teach us all new things about sailing... and I'll keep wishing for my deep runner for the 2 times per year I'd use it.

Hey Seth--- as long as we're chatting about all this, what are your thoughts on tri-radial vs. straight on cruising kites?
Chris

PS> this all reminds me of another "sailing saying" for the other thread!
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Kite talk, not exactly pillow talk

Chris,

Since you asked, let me say this about that:

I am not a huge fan of the Evil Blue Empire (North)-not because of poor sail design or qualilty, but because they seem to typically have poor service and committment to "our" part of the market. I usually see unhappy N clients because they are more focused on the really big ticket boats, leaving guys like us to fend for ourselves.

Deep Runner? Why? I would prefer an AP shape-these run well and reach quite well also. The little Flasher can be your "upwind" spinnaker and you can use it when the breeze is piping up. The difference between a good AP sail and a runner is small when running, bigger when reaching-so the AP is more versatile.

On the subject of wanting a symetrical for running (I have droned on ad nauseum about this, but here we go again), my question is:WHY? Why would you want a less efficient, harder to handle sail on the boat? Remember, A-sails are NOT reaching sails by definition-only reaching A-sails are. An A-sail designed as a runner or AP will always be faster than a symetrical (because it is a better airfoil-with a real leading edge and a real trailing edge).

So, if it were my boat, I would have ONLY A-sails on board-I would have a small flat reacher, and an AP, and maybe a runner if I had the extra bucks. ALL of these are more versatile than the symetrical counterparts, and easier to fly. All spinnakers, symetrical or A-sails, can be reachers or runners, or AP, but the A-sails will always have a wider range, and when compared to a symetrical designed for the same function (and this is the key), are faster.

When sailing downwind with an A-sail (especially one designed for broad reaching or running), they will perform better with a pole-and are trimmed just like the symetrical-although they are gybed differently.

So, with your A-sails you can use the pole or not, and they work better with the snuffer, but yes, symetrical do work with snuffers, too.

Tri radial or crosscut? ALWAYS Tri-radial!!! This is because nylon sailcloth is all warp oriented-meaning the strongest threads are aligned with the warp-or the long direction. When you assemble a spinnaker in a crosscut style, you are asking the weaker threads (along the width) to carry the highest loads (up and down the luff and leech), while those beefy warp threads are now aligned with the girth of the sail, where there is much less load-so crosscut is a poor use of the fabric. A tri radial will last much longer, be stronger(for a given fabric) and hold its' shape much better.

A good example of A-sails going downwind was the Mac race 3 years ago on board the first ben 36.7 in Chicago-I did all the sails for this boat. Although it does not have a bowsprit and was not intended for A-sails, I built a full inventory of A-sails. This is a boat with a normal pole, fractional rig, in a light air downwind race. All bad for this type of boat. We were first in class and I think 6th or 7th overall out of 300 or so boats (the other top 15 spots overall were BIG boats!). The next year, when we had a class of them, we won again using an a-sail-and the second boat had the symetricals. Same boats, good crews, and they said they just could not get as deep or as fast as we were able to. It was close, but we definitely had the edge. They get even better in heavy air since they don't oscillate back and forth like the symetricals do in those conditions.

Not that I have an opinion....

S
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Tell us Seth...

Hey man... Don't hold back-- tell us how you really feel!

I guess we're lucky to have a good working relationship with our Evil Empire loft. Our actual "local" loft is one of the other brands and is terrible- I don't anticipate a shift towards customer service any time soon! It's funny though, we built the North relationship partly through the fact that my wife and I crewed on a 395 with a pretty hefty sail budget. But I digress.

Thanks for the thoughts on Tri-Radial stuff... I've never seen a sailmaker explain this stuff to us dummies.
Two more questions- one serious, one in jest---
1. what fun is DDW without death rolls? :devil:
and--- 2. were the 36.7 sails pole-less? How did they affect the rating? You want to do another one?
oh-- and 3. are you going to the Ben regatta in RI in July?

I love these discussions- I learn a lot on the water from good crewmates, I learn a lot from good books, and I learn a TON from all you guys about all this stuff. I become a more confident cruiser and a better racer all the time!

Chris
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
The rest of the story

Yo' Chris!

I'm glad you are tight with the local Lords of the Evil Empire:devil: -of course they are as good as anyone in terms of design technology (although at times their marketing has led them to push some silly designs and construction methods-but that is another story). What counts is that you get good sails and good service at fair prices. If your local North loft does this, why change? I'm with you on that. In fact, once it was public here that I was "out of the industry" (yeah, right!), it was the local North manager who set me up with some great paid coaching gigs-and now one of my projects is with a T-10 with very tasty North sails. The best part is I am working on the new revision of the sail design for this class with the North guys (well-giving a little input anyway)-so all is not sour between the Empire and myself...:egrin:

DDW without death rolls, huh? After several Transpacs on IOR type boats and doing this for 10-12 days straight, you get tired of it. Then, when you get to sail a 395, or any of the newer IMS/IRC or non rule boats, and see how much flat out faster and controllable they are, you get hooked. It is a lot more fun to sail a 38-39 footer at 15-18 knots in full control on a plane than it is to sail at 9-11 knots while rolling gunwhale to gunwhale.

The A-sails we used on the 36.7 were flown from the pole except on very close reaches in light air. Just like with a "normal" kite, we would square the pole back as the breeze came aft, and when the AP or runner was up, we can sail as deep as anything out there-just as fast or faster. Trimming was about the same, but gybing was different-for obvious reasons. I can get into that discussion when asked some other time.

The first and second year the rating was not affected much-if at all as the A-sails were not oversized-they measured in just like the max symetricals. Last year the 36.7 class voted to bar A-sails (we sailed as a OD fleet/section) and the rule had chaged to penalize even those A-sails which were not oversized. In boats of this rating band, it amounted to about a 20 minute hit for the race. Had we not been sailing One Design, I would have taken the hit without question. We won again BTW-3rd time in a row.

Do it again? Well, I keep saying I need to get back on a bigger boat for the next Mac, but I really like the little Bendytoys (they are not bendy), so who knows? I will be out there on something fast-that is for sure.

I am about 50/50 for the July regatta-depends on what the conflicts are with local events in town (Chicago). I should know this soon, though.

Why? Are you going? Hope I answered your questions!

Good on ya!!!

S:D
 
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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Seth I would like to hear about the gybing technique with A sail on a pole. Perhaps we need a new thread?

I am wrestling with sail decisions myself these days. I love the new main and am thinking I will try for a new headsail this spring. Right now I think I will aim for something around 145% in a laminate similar to the Dimension Polyant cloth I got in my main. Different weight of course. I am going to apply for a PHRF cert for the boat and need to decide on headsails. If I take the furler credit ,the way I understand the rule, I am limited to what ever sail I put on the furler. So if I use the 145 and it gets heavy I have to furl it and reef my main instead of going to a 3. On the other hand if I start with a 3 on the furler and it gets light I cant go to a #1. I plan to primarily cruise the boat and do a couple of races so I cant justify the expense of a full race 155 and a new #3. My 145 will be a compromise between a racing and cruising sail. If I dont take the the furler credit I could try an buy a decent used 155 and a decent used #3, but I would still have the weight, windage, and compromised luff length of the furler.

Then theres the kite question. I currently have an A sail by north but it is more of a cruising kite than anything else. I dont know the exact dimensions but it sounds like Chris' Flasher. A bit small and rather flat. Hard to sail very deep with. The IOR influenced hull shape of the E-38-200 makes me think the boat is better suited to DDW runs than to playing the angles like a sport boat. I agree 100% on the A sail vs symmetric. I am guessing my best bet is going to be to get an AP like you say. It just adds to the cost of the program. I guess I would try to get one and wait on the pole and related gear... If you had to guess what do you think a decent AP kite for this boat would run? I am assuming you would want to be somewhere around 175-180 on the girth? A friend who works at Madden Masts and Rigging and I were discussing building a small pole to fit at the deck that would help get the tack out in front a few feet. This would be easier on the wallet than the 16.25' foot pole and all the associated gear like mast track etc.
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
ahhhhh PHRF

Hey Ted,
I thought I'd chime real quick about some of that stuff-
As far as the RF credit, nobody ever said you had to actually furl anything... right? I think you just have to use the top furling barrel, which would mean your bow cowboy would have to be quick, but for the rarity that one makes headsail changes it might be worth it. And the 6 seconds is nice.
Let me know how that pole thing works, I'd like to use it for cruising to get the tack away from the pulpit if it can handle the loads. I noticed that the new french Opium 39 is using a deck mounted sprit...
Chris

PS. to Seth: The ches bay 36.7 fleet is planning (as in we already have the house rented and a slip reserved) to go up to RI since there are rumors of 40 of us on the starting line :devil: I'll be there with the boat.
"Up up up!!!"
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Yeah I figured on taking the credit. I cant see going to a Tuff Luff on this boat. What are you doing for headsails on your boat Chris?
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Ted, There was a thread on sailboatowners.com that had some information on a removable sprit. I did a search to see if I could find the thread and details but didn't find anything. As I remember the boat was in the low 30's'. I did copy the photos from the post.
Mark
 

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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Yup that basically what we were thinking. I saw a boat at the annapolis boat show this year that had a set up similar from the factory. Looked pretty beefy but simple. Thoughts are that you would maybe need some sort of a bobstay huh?
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
headsails...

Hey Ted,
We have a Dacron 150% RF. Then we also have a 140 that the previous owner had cut down to approx a 120% with a zip on for heavy weather or emergency. It acts like a #2. We furl and reef or just motor if it gets too much past #2 range. Our friends think we're pansies, but we call it "cruising":D . Call me when you go racing, I'd love to go!

Mark, those are great pictures. Putting the fitting behind that anchor locker is smart- there's good access there on the 38 (there's a little locker at the front of the v-berth). I'm assuming he had a serious backing plate on it?
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Before I can go racing I need to get some better sails together. Main is sweet but I need headsails. I just cant see myself showing up on the line with my faded blue UV cover on the 145 flapping around.... I am looking at some used sails online and at Bacons. Seeing a fair amount of kevlar/mylar sails that are reputed to still be in decent shape. Anyone know the proper leech lenght for a 155 on the E 38-200? I know luff is 50, foot is 25.1875, but how about the leech. I don't want the clew to be too high or too low. Same with the numbers for a 100% anyone know the proper leech length? I plan to buy a new genny in the spring but it will likely be an ap cruising laminate sail, that may serve as a heavy #2 for racing, but I am shooting to get a decent used light #1 (155%) and #3 (100%) for racing. The light #1 is more important as I have a dacron #3 that I could get by with. Then there's the whole kite gig..... Need to more cash to feed this jones
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Ted n' Chris

Hi Ted!

I am going to post a document I created while at Quantum for gybing A-sails while sailng with "conventional" poles. That is a good method to begin with. I will then add a more advanced version we used often on board the 36.7 Raptor and Karma later in program.

To get back to your PHRF stuff-each area is different, but my understanding was that if you take the RF credit, you are limited to the size you declare for your Max LP, but I am not aware that you are not allowed to use smaller sails-just that you can't go bigger-I see no reason why you can't have a # 3-the only thing I think you are stuck with is the slightly shorter luff length of the furling system-I THINK you can change sails during a race-they just have to stay on the furler. For the 38-I think the 145% as your max is a good idea, since once you have even 7-8 knots TWS, this is enough for upwind sailing, so why take the rating hit for a 155 if you almost never use/need it. The kite size is totally different, so you can stay with a max size kite if you like, OR, you can list something smaller than 1.8 X J and get some credit. Not sure if that helps much-it would be great to see someone post the actual rule for the Chesapeake PHRFfleet... BTW-I no longer have those sail plans with me, but in terms of your request for a leech length for a 155 and #3, I can get that easily for you-just clarify if this is with or without the sail tacked to a furling drum, and whether or not you are assuming the head is on the upper drum or going all the way up.. Once you tell me that I will give you a good leech, luff and foot for those sails-keep in mind though that these numbers will assume NO mast rake-so if you are raked aft, the clew will be a bit lower than what I indicate (I will tell you where it would sit in relation to the lifelines). I will also get a ballpark quote on an A-sail for racing, but it will be very close to the symterical's price-the bigger variation will be from fabric choices.

For your type of racing and I would do the same-yes-I would stay wiith all A-sails-I would have 1 full sized AP and one smaller flatter one-that will give you much more coverage than even 3 symetricals-with more than adequate performance. The idea of those aftermarket sprits is GREAT-even better if you make it articluate some so it can "square" back a little when running.... This would be much easier and more fun than messing with the full pole set up. Note that oftentimes when I set the A-sail (unless we are already sailing really deep), I set it off the bow without the pole to get the boat closer to top speed fast, then take my time rigging the pole (if it was not already set up) and changing the tack over to the pole end-this is another nice advantage of using the A-sails. BTW- if you are building a racing AP, and have the little kite already, you might as well go max allowable (1.8 X J on the girth-The AP A-sail on Rogue (Steve Valentors Turbo E-34 (BK)) is full sized, and in light air flown from the tack, will sail WELL up into the low 40's app wind angle-41-42 degrees app. is not problem. Rig the pole, square back, and we have ourselves a nice deep runner! Very versatile, indeed.

As to your DDW point, I would say "mostly". It is true that being heavy and somewhat pinched in the back, your VMG is not much faster, if at all, by reaching up EXCEPT in under 6-8 knots of TWS. In lighter air, even the 38 will net out by doing some reaching-if anyone has polars this should be clear.

On the other hand, in any reasonable breeze, you will probably net better by sailing the shortest course-so, even on this boat, there ARE times when sailing the angles makes the most sense.

What else? Oh yes-I agree with you on the fabric-stay with a good composite for sure at the minimum-if you find a good Kevlar or Carbon sail, get it.

If you find a used genny that you think will work, take it to your trusty sailmaker and ask them for an opinion on the condition-how much life appears to be left, etc... If he says it looks like no more than 2 seasons, it may be worth it. If it has more than 4-it is worth NO MORE than 15-20% TOPS of a new sail.
I'm sure I forgot something-but you will let me know. I will now post the gybing doc. I also have it in PDF if anyone wants it that way.

Safe sailing all!

S
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
Chris, Which 36.7 are you with? 2 years ago I did a few regattas on Wild Onion-that one has been up and down-I think I did one spring series regatta and one was the last big weekend of the Fall Series-We won one of them and were second in the other (IIRC- it was a while ago)-I remember talking with the guys on that boat with the Latin name "Foxtrot Corpum" or something like that-good guys-at that time they were still putting it together-the first event they had great moments-the second one they were top 3!

We'll see how the summer unfolds for mne, but the RI event looks like a blast!
Cheers
 
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