Graham Cole
The Zoomer
does anyone have any thoughts on a cruising chute/sock for a 30+? There is a masthead sheave. I don't have much knowledge on this one...
thx. G.
thx. G.
30+ assymetrical
- Thread starter Graham Cole
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I am sailing a very different boat from hull design etc., but thought I'd pass on my .02 anyway. The prior owner of Emerald purchased an UK Sails Flasher which also has a sock. I have just started to play with this sail and love it. It is very easy to deploy with the sock on it. Not having to mess around with poles etc. makes it even easier. Best part is that the performance is amazing. Last we were out with it we had about a 6 knot breeze and we were hitting 6 knots. Emerald displaces about 12K, and has a semi-full keel underbody. Not too shaby! Also to my surprise, as I had only sailed classic spinnakers before, the useable range was from a broad reach to almost pointing. Couldn't believe how far up to wind this sail works.
Check here for more information. BTW, I don't have any affiliation with anything to do with sailmakers, distributors etc.
http://www.ukhalsey.com/sails/triflasher.asp
-David
Independence 31
Emerald
Check here for more information. BTW, I don't have any affiliation with anything to do with sailmakers, distributors etc.
http://www.ukhalsey.com/sails/triflasher.asp
-David
Independence 31
Emerald
Last edited:
30+ A-sails
Those who have read my posts already know where I am going-but for a cruiser (and a racer as well) a cruising spinnaker/flasher/APC/Gennaker/thingamajig is a must have-In light air, as long as you don't actually HAVE to sail as close to the breeze as possible, they will drive the boat a knot faster that a full size furling genoa-You should be able to get well into the low 40's apparent wind angle with ease-and you can use it like this until the breeze is high enough that comfort and control issues call for a different sail (your genoa). Of course, you can leave it up in higher winds at deeper angles-
You are correct that a broad reach is about as low as you can go without a pole, but if you are willing to use the pole, you can run quite well with most of them-square back just like a symetrical!
They are by definition more effcient aerodynamically than a symetrical-at any angle, and if you are willing to use the pole for deeper angles, the limitation at these angles is not that they are assymetrical, but that they are often flatter and smaller (to maximize the close and beam reaching portion of their job).
I have advised many folks to order their a-sails with more of an "AP" shape than a reaching shape-this will make them faster at deeper angles with or without a pole, yet sacrifice VERY little at the closer angles-they will sail almost as close, but may not be able to carry it at those close angles into quite as much breeze as the reaching shaped A-sails..a fair trade. It should not affect the purchase price (unless you ask for a slightly bigger than "standard" size). Note that each sailmaker has their own cruising sail product-with a specific size. Most are quite close to each other-but not exactly-The UK Flasher, for example, has historically been a bit smaller than the Doyle or Quantum flavors of this idea. This means you have to be careful when shopping-look at the sail area or dimensions. All are good, just slightly differing design philosophies..You can always request a slightly larger one (and pay the difference). Typically they will have SMW's (Mid-width girths) of 1.6-1.75 X J-which can also be equated to LP size (e.g. A 150% Genoa has an Luff Perpendicular, or "girth" of 1.5 X J). The max size of any standard spinnaker, symetrical or not, is 1.8 X J.
Be careful with the masthead sheave..Are you sure you are not seeing the back of the topping lift sheave? The top of this rig is not supported, and in any case, the intended spinnaker for this boat was to be flown from the spinn halyard at the hounds-not the masthead! If you do have this halyard, and order a sail that big-I would use it VERY carefully, and only in the lightest of winds-but boy will you fly in the light stuff!! But seriously, use the proper sheaves (at the hounds)!
Fair winds,
S
Those who have read my posts already know where I am going-but for a cruiser (and a racer as well) a cruising spinnaker/flasher/APC/Gennaker/thingamajig is a must have-In light air, as long as you don't actually HAVE to sail as close to the breeze as possible, they will drive the boat a knot faster that a full size furling genoa-You should be able to get well into the low 40's apparent wind angle with ease-and you can use it like this until the breeze is high enough that comfort and control issues call for a different sail (your genoa). Of course, you can leave it up in higher winds at deeper angles-
You are correct that a broad reach is about as low as you can go without a pole, but if you are willing to use the pole, you can run quite well with most of them-square back just like a symetrical!
They are by definition more effcient aerodynamically than a symetrical-at any angle, and if you are willing to use the pole for deeper angles, the limitation at these angles is not that they are assymetrical, but that they are often flatter and smaller (to maximize the close and beam reaching portion of their job).
I have advised many folks to order their a-sails with more of an "AP" shape than a reaching shape-this will make them faster at deeper angles with or without a pole, yet sacrifice VERY little at the closer angles-they will sail almost as close, but may not be able to carry it at those close angles into quite as much breeze as the reaching shaped A-sails..a fair trade. It should not affect the purchase price (unless you ask for a slightly bigger than "standard" size). Note that each sailmaker has their own cruising sail product-with a specific size. Most are quite close to each other-but not exactly-The UK Flasher, for example, has historically been a bit smaller than the Doyle or Quantum flavors of this idea. This means you have to be careful when shopping-look at the sail area or dimensions. All are good, just slightly differing design philosophies..You can always request a slightly larger one (and pay the difference). Typically they will have SMW's (Mid-width girths) of 1.6-1.75 X J-which can also be equated to LP size (e.g. A 150% Genoa has an Luff Perpendicular, or "girth" of 1.5 X J). The max size of any standard spinnaker, symetrical or not, is 1.8 X J.
Be careful with the masthead sheave..Are you sure you are not seeing the back of the topping lift sheave? The top of this rig is not supported, and in any case, the intended spinnaker for this boat was to be flown from the spinn halyard at the hounds-not the masthead! If you do have this halyard, and order a sail that big-I would use it VERY carefully, and only in the lightest of winds-but boy will you fly in the light stuff!! But seriously, use the proper sheaves (at the hounds)!
Fair winds,
S
Chris Miller
Sustaining Member
I second David's comment...
We have a UK Flasher on our 38 as well with the "Stasher" (such a goofy name...).
I'd agree with David that it's a handy sail to have in the inventory. We had a similar situation of having it come with the boat and never really getting around to using it until this past summer. It's a blast! Seth's comment about them being cut a little small (and with very little to no shoulder) is very true... BUT- if you are sailing short handed or double handed it is very nice to not have a gigantic sail to deal with. But a deep run without shoulder in your sail takes some practice.
No matter what brand, style, or size- having a cruising chute on board will make for fun light air daysails and seriously improve your passagemaking time if you don't mind going where the wind takes you.
Chris
PS. I often comment to my wife about how "un-masculine" our spinnaker color pattern is--- she always says I'm nuts. We went to see Monty Python's Spamalot this weekend on Broadway and the backdrop for the "Sir Lancelot is a fairy" bit was a nylon hanging in a tri-radial design in our exact same colors:eek:
Their douse was fantastic...
We have a UK Flasher on our 38 as well with the "Stasher" (such a goofy name...).
I'd agree with David that it's a handy sail to have in the inventory. We had a similar situation of having it come with the boat and never really getting around to using it until this past summer. It's a blast! Seth's comment about them being cut a little small (and with very little to no shoulder) is very true... BUT- if you are sailing short handed or double handed it is very nice to not have a gigantic sail to deal with. But a deep run without shoulder in your sail takes some practice.
No matter what brand, style, or size- having a cruising chute on board will make for fun light air daysails and seriously improve your passagemaking time if you don't mind going where the wind takes you.
Chris
PS. I often comment to my wife about how "un-masculine" our spinnaker color pattern is--- she always says I'm nuts. We went to see Monty Python's Spamalot this weekend on Broadway and the backdrop for the "Sir Lancelot is a fairy" bit was a nylon hanging in a tri-radial design in our exact same colors:eek:
Their douse was fantastic...
A-sail
Hi Grahm, I used an asymetric on my 30+, but did not run it to the masthead. Rusalka was a 7/8 fractional, and had 2 sheaves at that point. It worked very well, had it made by Doug at Lidgard sails in Seattle. You will find you sail more with a asymetrical, and it is faster over a wider range. I also had an ATN snuffer. Great package, will do the same for the 38. Harold
Hi Grahm, I used an asymetric on my 30+, but did not run it to the masthead. Rusalka was a 7/8 fractional, and had 2 sheaves at that point. It worked very well, had it made by Doug at Lidgard sails in Seattle. You will find you sail more with a asymetrical, and it is faster over a wider range. I also had an ATN snuffer. Great package, will do the same for the 38. Harold
Graham Cole
The Zoomer
Thanks for the help all! Am going with an a sail at the hounds. Some of my hot rod buddies were all over me to do a masthead hoist. There is a sheave there on my boat, however. thx. Graham
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
I am resonably certain you could go with a masthead kite on this boat if you set it up properly. Probably would not be worth the trouble for the marginal gain. You would likely also get penalized for it under PHRF but I am no expert there. You have a masthead backstay which is a plus for doing this. You would probably need to add jumpers to get the lateral support. That would add some weight aloft but would stiffen the upper section enough to support a MH kite. This is how the Mount Gay 30 I race on is set up. For a better answer on this I would ask Brion Toss. He has a great website for rigging questions. All that being said if you are not planning on racing the boat I would keep it simple a stay with the frac height hoist and an A sail.
Graham
My 30+ really liked a spinnaker off the wind. With the frac rig your headsail area is somewhat smaller & this is where a kite comes in handy. I agree completely with Seth as far as a masthead kite goes. Don't do it! You'll get more use out of a spinnaker pole to get the tack out into clean air when running deep than all the fussing around trying to beef up the rig. I saw 8+ kn in 18-20 kn true wind running dead down with my 30+. Being hull speed is around 6kn that ain't all bad! Go with the "A" sail & sock and you should be very happy.
Have fun & sail fast
Bud E34 "Escapade"
My 30+ really liked a spinnaker off the wind. With the frac rig your headsail area is somewhat smaller & this is where a kite comes in handy. I agree completely with Seth as far as a masthead kite goes. Don't do it! You'll get more use out of a spinnaker pole to get the tack out into clean air when running deep than all the fussing around trying to beef up the rig. I saw 8+ kn in 18-20 kn true wind running dead down with my 30+. Being hull speed is around 6kn that ain't all bad! Go with the "A" sail & sock and you should be very happy.
Have fun & sail fast
Bud E34 "Escapade"
Graham Cole
The Zoomer
Thanks again, I am gettin kinda chuffed here! Hoping to do less motoring in our light air and Desolation Sound trips. Graham
spinnaker comment
Graham,
As the owner of a 25+, I would say stick with a frac asymetrical sail as it sounds like you have limited spinnaker sailing experiance. Just so you know, flying a spinnaker from the masthead works well on the plus series, but I would not suggest it someone with little or no spinnaker experiance for several reasons. A masthead kite is usually bigger and requires more skill to fly and if the halyard on our boats is not rigged right at the mast head, you will have chafe problems. I have a custom sheeve in the front of the halyard box at the masthead for my masthead spinnaker halyard. Good luck and adding a kite will make your boat go faster and be more fun. Ryan
Graham,
As the owner of a 25+, I would say stick with a frac asymetrical sail as it sounds like you have limited spinnaker sailing experiance. Just so you know, flying a spinnaker from the masthead works well on the plus series, but I would not suggest it someone with little or no spinnaker experiance for several reasons. A masthead kite is usually bigger and requires more skill to fly and if the halyard on our boats is not rigged right at the mast head, you will have chafe problems. I have a custom sheeve in the front of the halyard box at the masthead for my masthead spinnaker halyard. Good luck and adding a kite will make your boat go faster and be more fun. Ryan
Be careful
Ryan is one of our more experienced sailors-but even I would be leery of using a masthead kite on any of the + series boats-even with the custom halyard, because the rig was not intended to take this load (OKAY-in very light air I could be talked into it). You might be OK ddw, but the rig is totally unsupported athwartships above the hounds, and a MH kite will be pulling the top of the rig off to one side, and these sections were not meant for this.
I don't advise this for anyone, but if you do it, do it with ALOT of care and forethought for the rig...
Cheers,
Ryan is one of our more experienced sailors-but even I would be leery of using a masthead kite on any of the + series boats-even with the custom halyard, because the rig was not intended to take this load (OKAY-in very light air I could be talked into it). You might be OK ddw, but the rig is totally unsupported athwartships above the hounds, and a MH kite will be pulling the top of the rig off to one side, and these sections were not meant for this.
I don't advise this for anyone, but if you do it, do it with ALOT of care and forethought for the rig...
Cheers,