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Backstay Adjuster Hydraulic or Mechanical

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Looks like mechanical would be cheaper but are they not so great? I am referring to the ones that use a ratchet or winch handle. Seems like they are 200-400 cheaper than the sailtec or navtec which would run me about 1000 for the E 38-200. Thoughts?
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Hydraulics

The great thing about hydraulics is the ability to make BIG "gear shifts" as conditions change. If you get a puff, taking a couple of inches on the BS will make a HUGE difference in terms of flattening the main and reducing excessive HS sag-or in a lull, blow it off a bit and whtch the main power up and HS sag off-and BOOM-you keep moving!. Don't underestimate the value of this tool-it can be dramatic-even on cruising rigs.

Accordingly, the ratchet types just are not fast enough to use effectively. Sure, you can make changes, but you will get MUCH more speed and utility from an adjuster you can "shift gears" with without having to spend 4 minutes at the b ack of the bus.

Cha-ching!
S
 

valentor

Member II
Ted;

I replaced the klunky original-equipment hydraulic backstay adjuster on my E34 with a Navtec two years ago and I couldn't be more pleased with it. It is very simple and fast to adjust, makes very large adjustments quickly, and has a profound effect on performance. It is so easy to adjust that it makes sense to continuously 'test' alternative settings.

In general, if any adjustment is easy to make - you will make it often - which will make you sail faster.


Regards;

Steve
 

windjunkee

Member III
I went from NO backstay adjustor to a Navtec. The difference in performance is amazing. The ease of adjustment is equally amazing. As the E32-2 has a deck-stepped mast and the mast itself is very solid (i.e. not particularly bendable), we installed a secondary compression post in the cabin right underneath the mast-step. The original compression post is wood and is offset to accommodate the doorway to the head and v-berth.

As for ease of use, the helmsman, without looking, can reach behind him for easy access to the pump, such that in rounding a leeward mark, the helmsman can both steer to the new course and adjust the backstay tension simultaneously as the rest of the crew is trimming to the new heading. The ability to throw the rig forward for downwind performance is our favorite feature. We've easily picked up 1/2 knot in downwind performance, without sacraficing upwind performance by being able to cinch up the tension on the forestay to keep a clean leading edge.

By the way, I DID find a used Navtec and bought it. With a complete service and rebuild, together with the toggle and fitting to our backstay, the entire package was $700.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
HS sag

Jim,

Great job with your old 32! Remember that in light air upwind, you want AS MUCH SAG as possible without the HS bouncing around as you hit waves-this makes for a rounder entry, which yields more lift at slow speeds. Use the halyard carefully as well-make sure the draft is between about 35-45% of the way back from the luff. More like the the mid 30's in big breeze, and mid 40's in lighter air. In light air, if you get wrinkles in the luff as a result of properly locating the draft, don't worry. Wrinkles are a secondary concern at best, and the function of luff tension (halyard) is to locate the draft position-not eliminate wrinkles.
Another trick when sailing downwind is after you ease the BS all the way off, take the Genoa halyard (or any unused forward halyard) and shackle it to the stem fitting (jib tack fitting) and grind it down tight, or until the backstay is snug. This gets the mast as far fwd as possible AND steadies the rig in waves. The HS will be swinging in the breeze, but no matter-that only proves you got the rig forward as intended!

Make us proud out there!

S
 

windjunkee

Member III
Seth,

You know where we sail. Its Redondo Beach! We always have heavy chop and light air. We don't tension all the way, we tighten just enough to take the bounce out. Actually, as we round into a windward tack, I watch the headstay in the waves. I can actually have one hand on the wheel, one hand on the handle and eye up to see both the telltales and the headstay. We keep the halyard tension off -- first because we're supposed to in lighter air and second because the tuffluff won't twist properly with too much halyard tension. Since we're just starting to get used to the Navtec, tuffluff, new 155 genoa and new halyards that don't stretch (what a concept THAT is), we're still experimenting with the combination that will make us go fast.

As for throwing the mast forward, I loosened the aft shrouds about 5 full turns, and then brought them back about 2 full turns, searching for the optimal tension. Still playing with that.

By the way, we finished Santa Barbara/King Harbor race 5th in class. Three of the four boats finishing before us did so right before our eyes as we drifted aimlessly a mile from the finish line.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Atta boy!

Good job Jim!

You are on the right track with everything (and yes-I DO know where you sail).

A couple of things to keep in mind:

1). Rig-good to keep those aft lowers loose in general. but when you are tweaking the fore and aft lowers, you want to be sure and keep the fwd. lowers just a bit tighter to prevent reverse bend (inverted rig syndrome). A mast can take aft bend, but becomes very unstable when inverted.

2). Backstay-Given how small your boat is back there, I understand why you are happy making the backstay adjustments yourself, but be careful.. Since you are clearly stepping up your racing game, you OWE it to the guys who crew for you to steer at your highest ability. Believe me when I tell you are are not fast when you are driving and playing the backstay (or the mainsheet/traveller, for that matter) at the same time.

If you are in changable conditions, better to have a crewperson or the main trimmer do this to keep you steering well. The occasional "dump"' is fine, but pumping it up while driving is not wise.

Sometimes it is unavoidable, but when it is not, avoid it and have someone else do it.

I see this kind of thing all the time with owners used to having to do many things themselves. But once you get some good guys on board, they expect you to be GOOD and you just can't be as fast multitasking while driiving.

This may or not be 100% true for your situation, but is a good thing for all race boat drivers to keep in mind!

Keep it up, though-we like to see the old E-boats "shredding"!

BTW-on the coastal races, reaching double head rig style was always fast on the 32-2 and 35-2 (Jib Top/Reacher with Genoa Staysail set underneath).

Cheers,
S
 

Geoff Nelson

Member II
adjustments and fraccolation

My Navtec is also great and being combined with the hydraulic vang in one panel sharing the same adjuster lever is awesome- just flip the selector forward to in/out vang and then put it back to in/out BS. It is forward enough (directly to stbd of the helm) that I can adjust without looking down/away and I can pump and feel the effect on the helm at the same time.

As for headstay sag downwind, if you are not on a short course, to steady the rig, after you get the kite up, you can take one of the jib sheets on the furled jib back to a winch and snug it (not too tight). That pulls the HS aft keeping constant pressure on the BS and stopping all that flopping around of the headstay (and you don't have to use a spare halyard as a frac). You don't want to jibe with a pole in that configuration, but for a race like Santa Barbara- King Harbor (or better yet, Bishop Rock- THIS WEEK!) this works very well. If you are using an assymetric spinnaker, you can jibe in this configuration as well.

Cheers,

G-
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Jib Sheets as Fraculator

Geoff,

Of course, most of the guys who race hard enough to want to pull the rig forward are not using furling headsails (although I'm sure some do)..

I'm not too crazy about this approach mainly because the headstay was not designed to take loading in that direction, and certainly you cannot come close to adding enough load to really pull the rig forward (like you would with a halyard ground down). When we frac with the halyard, we are putting enough load on to snug up a fully eased backstay and then some-that is exponentially more than would dare pull on a jib sheet from a furled headsail.

The other issue I have is that you are not pulling the top of the rig forward-at least directly-you have a load going from between mid point on the headstay, back to a winch, which indirecetly puts some load-again on the headstay (and NOT the top of the rig)-to add some forward tension.

If you use a halyard, you are pulling the top of the rig DIRECTLY forward, and the loose forestay is simply a harmless by-product..

I don't see any real problem with your approach-don't take me wrong-but it is not as efficient and applies loads on parts and in directions that were never intended. You end up with less effect and some unnatural loads-at least that is my opinion...

But-KEEP racing that boat-I love to see this going on out there!

Fair winds,
S
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Okay so sounds like I am going to go with a hydraulic model. Looks to me like there are 2 to choose from Sailtec and Navtec. Both priced about $1,000. Anyone aware of any other manufactures that I should look for?

Also thinking of going to a rigid vang but I will need to reverse the opening direction of my main cabin hatch. I am a little concerned about the ventilation effects of reversing this hatch. Right now it really works well and I wonder how well it will work if reversed.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Hydraulics

For even money, I would go Navtec-better known name-better service and resale-although I think both work well.

You will LOVE the solid vang-whether it is hyd. or not-you will have to reverse the hatch-and lose a bit of ventilation...BUT..one solution is to turn the boat around in the dock-put the stern to the prevailing wind, and double your ventilation by having the companionway hatch AND the main cabin hatch facing the wind...You may also recall my thread about anchoring stern-to-another advantage if the water is flat..

Go for it!
S
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
I agree on the Navtec point.

I think I will hold off on the solid vang for now and just devise a better way to get the topping lift out of the way when sailing. Dont need to chew up a new main when I do get one. On my old boat (columbia 28) I put a snap shackle on the end of the topping lift and unhooked it when sailing and hooked it up on the mast out of the way. I will probably just do the same.

I will be redesigning the vang after I get a new main though. I think its 3:1 right now. I would like at least 8:1. Hell on my Jet 14 dinghy I race I use 12:1 but then again thats the primary depowering tool for that rig. With a mid-boom traveler on the 38 I doubt I need too big of a vang but 3:1 is probably a bit weak.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
hydraulics

2 things. If you find a self contained BS cylinder at a great price, I agree. If you found a panel mount system with ability to add the hyd vang in the future, then I would go hydraulic vang at some time..

I REALLY like the solid vangs(hydraulic or not) for the support of the boom and elimination of the T.L.

However...if you decide to stay with a purchase system vang, here are some thoughts:
1). One good way to deal with the TL is to have a snap shackle on the end as you say. Rig a bungee cord from say, the mast collar with a loop on the end-adjusted so that you can bring the TL forward once the main is up and clip it to the bungee. This will hold it in place, out of the way so it won't beat up your new main sail leech, and still be easy to get at-
2). A variation on this is to have a bungee on the backstay toggle, and clip the TL there-this will hold the TL in tension, just parallel the BS, and also out of the way. You can still keep some extra line on the TL-with it cleated in the normal boom height for non-sailing time, yet have the ability to raise or lower the boom for those times you may want to:cockpit parties, furling the main with short people, etc.

As for purchase, 3:1 is in no way enough to do anything, and actually the lack of leverage in the mid boom sheeting is precisely why a powerful vang will help immensely. By using a strong vang properly, you will find the loads on the mainsheet are less and it will be much easier to work-let the vang take a chunk of the load-but to do this you need a good one. An easy way is to start with a 4:1 or better, 6:1. Then add a doubler-instead of attaching the vang to the tang on the boom, attach that end of the vang to a piece of wire or high load line, and run it through a block mounted on the boom tang, then down to wherever you have the vang anchored at that end-this will double the purchase you have in the block and tackle system, and at 8:1, or hopefully12:1, you now have a workable system. This can be arranged in several ways to achieve the same result, but hopefully you get the idea.

Whaddayathink?
S
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
I like the TL ideas a lot. Forgot about the backstay option.

Your thoughts on the vang are same as mine. I would use some form of a cascade with probably vectran, or Dyneema for strength and go to 8 or 12:1, make it double ended to get to both sides of the boat. On the Mount Gay 30 we have it in a place that guys on the rail can reach it by leaning in some. This way we can have one of them pour some on when needed going uphill and they can blow when we are about to broach going downhill :D
 

gareth harris

Sustaining Member
I found reversing the hatch somewhat painful but doable, once I had played with mixing resin a few times. I generally anchor off the stern when the winds are light, and I think the ventilation works better that way. Another alternative I have not tried is what Nigel Calder recommends, which is reverse flow ventilation at anchor off the bow, where there is a wind scoop over the companionway forcing the wind into the cabin forward to the hatches.
I hope you will give us some feedback on the adjuster you use, my original is impossible to find parts for so I may have to replace it in the near future.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Interesting idea on reverse flow but wouldn't it be a bit awkward having a windscoop in your companionway? Not to mention having to lower the dodger if you have one. As for anchoring off the stern I have heard this suggested but never did it as I keep my anchor and rhode in the bow locker and think it would be a PITA to relocate that stuff not to mention adding more weight to the stern that already has enough. I find the ventilation on the 38 to be excellent and use a windscoop in the fwd hatch. I may buy one of the little free standing versions for the small hatch fwd of the mast and one for the main hatch under the vang. They seem pretty cool as you can turn them if you are at a dock and not head to wind, alos they can be used if it is raining provided it is not blowing a gale.

I Have decided against turning the hatch and will pursue methods for securing the topping lift when not in use. As for the backstay adjuster I think I am going to go with the Navtec as they have a good history and will hopefully be in business for a few years if there are service issues.
 

escapade

Inactive Member
backstay stuff

Ted
I have used a SailTec Hydralic backstay for 2 years now. It's great! NavTec's are good also but decided on the SailTec cause they had a good boat show discount & are made in the good ole US of A (Wisconsin). Have fun decideing!
Bud E34 "Escapade"
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
When I replaced the vent hatch (Lewmar size 20) with a new one, I epoxied in the old screw holes and reversed the hatch. The old one just barely cleared the factory rod vang, and really needed some more clearance. Now it ventilates just as good, IMHO.
When anchored in any breeze, we open the huge forehatch for intake, and open the vent hatch and main hatch for exhaust.
Note that with the vent hatch reversed, you can leave it cracked open and not inhale spray and rain while sailing, as well. :rolleyes:
With the old one faced forward, we always had to dog *both* hatches while sailing...
As to vangs, we replaced a shot gas-strut vang with a spring version and love it.

Loren in PDX
Olson 34 Fresh Air
 
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