Laminate Sails for E 38-200

I'm getting quotes for a new main for the E 38-200. While I do not plan on actively campaigning the boat I do hope to do some racing next summer. I have pretty much decided that I want something a little more performance oriented than a cross cut dacron sail. The trouble is there are so many laminates out there that it is hard to choose. Every sailmaker claims there's is the best. I dont want to go all the way to a full on racing modulus laminate like 3DL but I do want something that will be fast and last... Any thouhgts? Right now I'm talking to North, UK Halsey, Quantum, Doyle, and Halsey Litgardd. Looking to do the main this year and hopefully the genoa next spring.
Genoa is a whole other can of worms as I need to decide how big I want to go, 150 I think, but should it be 155 if I want to do any racing? Then again I seem to get over powered quickly with the 150 I have now, but maybe thats because the main and jib are so stretched. And again there is the cloth/sailmaker decision. Obviously service is important with this type of purchase so going the mailorder route is probably not an option for me.

Then theres the bottom job to do next spring.... Oh yeah and the feathering prop, oh and the hydraulic backstay , oh and I almost forgot the set of running backs I was thinking about. The trick is keeping as much of this as possible below the wife's radar, while getting her to help as much as possible on the $$$....

BTW thoughts on the best (cheapest) place to purchase the hydraulic adjuster and 2 blade max prop?

When I bought my boat it came with a UK 150% mylar deck sweeper attached to a TuffLuff foil. The boat was very fast, but the sail was a real pain for shorthanded sailing so I switched Harken roller furling and a Doyle 150 genoa (I think they call it a Quicksilver). The boat just didn't perform nearly as well, so after about three years I bought a UK TapeDrive 135%. It's a great sail and the boat's performance has been greatly improved.

Thanks. I definately plan to keep the harken furler on. No fing way I'm doing headsail changes on a 38.... Maybe if I race I will consider not taking the furler credit and invest in a #3 and/or a #2 but that will certainly be down the road a bit.

I believe the drum can be removed from the Harken furler, so I could probably use the deck sweeper. However, there is nothing as much fun as trying to stay upright on a pitching foredeck trying to gather in (solo) a slippery mylar sail that is attached to the boat by only the sheets.

I went from the factory Navtec integral backstay adjuster to a Sailtec model. Both are good, but I much prefer the personalized service from Sailtec.
As to props, I note that you call it a "max prop." If you mean you are sourcing a feathering prop, you actually have other less-spendy choices. I went with an Autostream prop, sold in the US by Martec, for a (roughly) 25% savings. My two-blade featherer has external pitch adjustment, as well. I have a photo posted on this site - a relevant search will find it.
FWIW, I have not heard any gripes about either brand in actual use.

Loren in PDX
Olson 34 #8

I have approx. 10,000 miles on my UK tape drives. They are going on four years old. Single handed racing. They are still winning races. They are not the full on racing type. I have had no issues with them. I have a main with three reefs, a 105%, 125% and 155% also have a year old UK spinnaker that I am also very happy with. In San Francisco the service is great.

Thanks Phil. Funny I was just looking at a pic of your boat on uk's site. Looks great!

Headsail size

Ted,

We never raced Rag Doll, so when I needed new sails I went with boring Pentex construction from UK in preference to laminants, partly because I was so confused by the lamainate choices that I didn't know what to do. I can say that lots of my friends have UK tape drive sails like Phil and think highly of them.

The one thing I would change is the genny size. I went with 130 as a compromise, but I still feel I was over powered more often than under powered. So if I had that to do over I would get a 110. But again, I never raced, where the 110 could be a big disadvantage.

Here I am

Ted,

There are many choices for this application. I am a big fan of a product line from Contender Sailcloth called MAXX.

Here is a link direct to Contender's MAXX section:
http://www.contendersailcloth.com/maxx.asp

For you, the Voyager line is your best bet-unless you get more serious about racing-then you can step up to a higher level.

This fabric is built in a unique way so that it achieves the same or better yarn alignment than a tri-radial sail-even a D4 or 3DL almost, but keeps the price advantage of cross cut construction. I have had great success with it, and almost any sailmaker will be familiar with it and can work with you on it.
If you have a favorite (although UK may not, and frankly I like this approach or the D4/3DL over Tape Drive) go talk to them after you check it out on the Contender site. The above was NOT to slam UK-they make some great sails, and in some areas have great service-I am just offering my personal preferences.

The MAXX stuff is great for mains and any genoas heavier than a Light #1.

So, go chat with your sailmaker, and if you don't have one you like, I can still offer the E-gang the same discounts I had when I was in the "biz". Please contact me off the E-site via email if you would like poricing from me-I don't like to use this site for commercial purposes.

Hope this helps. See you on the Hyd. thread!
Cheers,
S

Seth's on vacation...

Just as an FYI- we were told by our North rep that anything above 140-ish% gets rated as a 155% in PHRF. Don't know how accurate that is, but definitely something to keep in mind. We have a max prop 2 blade folder. It works great but has some SERIOUS prop walk in reverse.
Wow... new sails under the wife's radar--- must be cool, man... must be cool. I'd say 155 after Friday night's race with the 3-4 kt true winds much of the night. Plus, it would be a good thing for non spin stuff when you don't want to have to compete with John White or any of the other local rockstars.
We have the Nav-Tec hydr. backstay and it works great, but it's not a do-it-yourself thing. Rebuild is $300 at Ches Rigging.
Just thoughts,
Chris

PS. Let me know with some lead time if you are looking for crew!

whoops...

Seth posted while I was posting... I thought he said he was vacationing.

Sail-a-holic, I guess
my bad,
Chris

Looked at the Contender site and teh Pentex Maxx looks like decent cloth. I dont really think I need a spectra, vectran, or carbon scrim. I have been looking at other cloths that are very similar in construction but use a polyester scrim that keeps costs down. Quantum site has some very good info on this.

Rated Genoa sizes

Chris,

You are correct-that SOME PHRF regions assume you have a 155%, and give no credit for smaller headsails.

Recently, some areas (regions) have elected to issue ratings based on the largest headsail the owner reports he will use-which makes a lot of sense.

The "no credit for smaller" theory was derived from the IOR rule,which allowed a max. LP of 150%, and no credit for smaller "#1" genoas.

Once IMS came into being as the "new' rule (and this formula rated a boat on exactly what sized sails were carried), some of the local PHRF boards "saw the light", and began to either give credit for smaller LP's, or simply rate the boat based on the largest LP genoa (same thing).

History lesson for today...
S

Guessing I am going to opt for a 155%. Still trying to decide on cloth and sailmaker. Guess once all the quotes are in I will be better able to make the choice.

Seth: regarding the Maxx material would you then use it in a cross cut application to keep the cost down?

Maxx

Got your note offline-you can email me at :Sethtec@aol.com (as can anyone).

There are many mylar/Polyester composites with and without Pentex yarns.
What is special about the MAXX is that the yarns are applied in an assymetric fashion, so that when the sail is assembled properly (it MUST be done crosscut) these yarns end up following the natural load path in the sail.

Go back and read the Contender site again and you will see this-the big advantage is exactly the fact that this stuff is designed to be used with a crosscut construction, yet yields a sail with completely different characteristrics than a crosscut sail (because of the unique yarn alignment).

It would be good for a main and a furling 140 or smaller. Maybe OK for an AP #1 (150 or 155) although a bit heavy for the lighter end of the spectrum-on the otherhand it will be bullet proof.

When I get home next week we can look into this more closely and get you your info.

Seeya round campus!

S

Ended up going with Quantum sails for the main. Settled on a laminate sail made from Dimension CX7T for 60% of the sail with Dimension CX6T for 40%. They are making it with the maximum allowable roach per PHRF guidelines, loose foot, 2 reefs, 1 full batten and 3 mid length. Price was very competitive as they are offering 20% off right now. I got quotes from Doyle, UK, North, Scott, and a few online lofts as well. There is a lot of stuff out there and this was not an easy choice but I ended up deciding on a laminate for the low stretch characteristics. It was a tough decision as there are some very high quality dacrons available today at great prices. I was seriously considering a material Doyle uses called Contender MAXX and decided against it finally based on cost and the fact that the material has only been around for a few years and although the long term outlook for its durability look solid I could not convince myself (read wife) to go that route. I will hopefully be getting a new headsail next spring at which point this decision process will begin all over again. Another reason for choosing Quantum was a conversation I had with a local sailor/friend who has bought a lot of racing sails over the past 6-8 years from every loft in Annapolis and so far has been the most satisfied with Quantum in terms of quality and service. North was a close runner up as they are offering a deal right now that gives you 25% off if you trade in an old sail. Anyhow measurements were taken today and I should have the new main in about 4 weeks. Yippee!

We are having the local Quantum guy come over and measure Papillon tomorrow afternoon. He was real gung-ho on the Contender MAXX as he uses it on his O 30 genoa. We are going to take a serious look at that fabric on a new cross-cut main and maybe a smaller genoa (say 120%). We've decided to take a look at adding a cruising chute to our inventory in place of the larger (155%), blown-out genoa we have now. The Admiral hates grinding in that big sail when we're going upwind hard, so we're hoping that the 120 will help keep her happy, with the 'chute keeping a smile on the skipper's face when we're reaching.

Moving to a more-appropriate thread

There is already a feathering prop thread, dated 11-7-02. Thread Title is Prop Options. Just put your reply next on that thread and it will jump to the top of the list, presuming that you are sorting by date.
Pictures can be attached, of course.
Feathering props and their advantages are of consistant interest around here!

Added note: I tried moving the prop-related comments to that thread, and ended up creating another prop option thread here. It appears that I can drive a boat off wind better than I can manage a database... Yikes!

Loren
Olson 34 Fresh Air

I purchased a Pentex main for my E32 from Ullman and could not be happier. The price was great, the sail is FANTASTIC, and after 2 1/2 years, still in great shape( I do baby it, but race a lot year around as well). The most noticable inprovement was significant reduction in weather helm and ability to flatten the sail in higher winds so I can carry more sail with less weather helm. The penex does not blow out like dacron so it retains its shape much better. This was the single best upgrade to my boat from a handling perspective.

shaun

more on laminate sails

I just put a new Pentex main & #1 (155%) on my E34. WOW!!!!! Initially the biggest problem is getting everything set correctly. Huge difference between blown out dacron main & laminate. Using the Harken furler. The loft that I went with (Doyle/Detroit) felt that you really don't give that much up using a furler if the sail is cut correctly in the first place. Now all the sail controls do what they say they should in the books. Really makes a difference.
Decide on a reputible sail-maker in your area and go with their advice. They know more about this stuff than most of us and their reputation is on the line if your unhappy! If they've been in business very long they realize it takes 20 happy customers to off-set one unhappy customer. The Doyle (formerly UK) loft here offers good service and a history of backing up their product which is how I decided on them.
Now if I can just get by that J-29 in our fleet.....
Have fun & sail fast
Bud '88 E34 "Escapade"