Gale Sail

Hi, all,

what would be the recommendation for the storm jib if I use a furler? I saw those sails that fit over the furled genoa (GailSail?), but I am deeply unsure if they make any sense - the furled sail will provide at least as much windage as that sail (mine is constructed of a kind of heavy Dacrone and furles in a hefty bundle). Any thoughts to share?

The question kind of popped out from the halyard tension conversation in "Maintenance and Mechanical" (Seth - thanks for a great explanation), but it would be a huge off-topic there.

Thanks,
Stan

The proper Sail for a Gale...

Strictly a semi-uninformed comment...
(By someone with only one gale to his credit, on a trip down to SF a few years ago.)
Looking at the bulk of a furled genny and then seen the ATN Gale Sail put on that bundle....I have often wondered the same thing. I am leaning towards getting 95% jib for offshore use that would replace the everyday 135 on our Harken furler. I am thinking that I would then roll in that smaller jib as needed. I do understand that this would not be a real "storm jib."

I note that offshore sailors nowadays use their furlers for all wind speeds and just keep rollin' more sail as the wind rises. While I will not have all the technology of a boat like "Ocean Planet" it seems like my idea may work out, especially given that I have the same quality furler as those racers.

Mind you, we contemplate a someday trip to Hawaii, by way of San Francisco, sometime in the next few years after the Admiral retires. And this would be in the summer months. I point that out only to reiterate that we are not going 'round the world -- no Roaring 40's in our future! :eek:

I watched another local sailor with a 40 footer set out for Mexico and the South Seas a while back, and he had purchased one of those "Gale Sails" -- and just to prove that unfriendly seas are not the only problem, he was back in a year, having lost his S.O. and had put the boat on the market. I do not know if he ever used the sail.

In wnds of over 30 knots, we would have a third reef, as well.

Interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

Loren in PDX
Olson 34 Fresh Air

Gales Sails

Loren makes good points as usual. The Gale Sail is usually a workable solution, but you still have the issue of fitting it on in bad conditions while the boat is sailing without a headsail. Granted, the smart move is to turn to a very broad reach while you do this-that will level the boat and you will be surfing instead of pounding, but....

Loren is right that an "offshore" headsail, smaller in LP and heavy, would be better and could be rolled right down to storm jib size. Sailing offshore, you could use that jib most of the time, and if it gets light, use the cruising spinnaker (from a close reach to a run-anything but true beating).

On the other hand, a properly built genoa of a larger size can do the same thing-albeit with a slight loss at the bottom end of the wind range.

My decision would depend on how big my boat was, the condition of my primary headsail, and what other sails I had (cruising kite).

Not much help, but maybe some clarity...
Cheers!

Gale sail/storm jib

Stan,
I think that a heavy 90 percent jib for offshore would be good and would roll up smaller and be sufficent for a storm jib. Also for sure have three reefs in the main and be prepared to use em. Moonglow has a true storm jib that is really small and I have only used it once on the bay and it was really blowin. Good luck and lookin forward to talkin to you and your wife soon. Ryan

Hmm... That brings more questions

Hi, all,

as usual, valuable points from everyone. We actually have a 95% jib and we were thinking about getting a UK Sails Flasher and Stasher (A-chute with a sock), so we are moving there, albeit slowly and painfully .

About the third reef... Last year on a SailExpo we talked to 4 or 5 major sail vendors. Most of them looked at us in a strange way when we asked for a quote on main with a third reef. Some of them tried to explain that we actually do not want it and we want a tri-sail. With the first one, I tried to explain that I do not have a second track on the mast so a tri-sail is a royal pain in the behind for us , than we just gave up and walked away whenever the wailing about "you do not really want a thrird reef..." was getting particularly annoying. Like, it's their money we are trying to spend .

Well, it is a fact that in the Bay many people sail their boats on their ears with full main in 30 knots (provides entertainment to the public and job security to boatyards). It also is a fact that 30-35 knots wind is a regular sailing condition in the summer here. So, the question is - do these sales guys really know what they are talking about or it's just a local trait?

Regards,
Stanly

P.S.: BTW, there was one great exception - UK Sails rep, Sylvain. Did a great job. May be because he is French and sailed MUCH more than the average sales person in the Bay Area does.

As to the comment about a third reef...
Interesting that Stanly got useful advise from a UKSails person. Tim Knight of UKsails NW told me to save my money that I was contemplating spending on a third reef when he spec'd out our new main a few years ago.

He advised waiting to put in a third reef just before we do an offshore trip (Hawaii) someday, and then we would have a better idea of the percent reduction we needed. So we went with two reefs, and in the light airs around here have never yet needed the second one.
Tim pointed out that the cost of adding the next reef was not going to change much anyway in the interim.
He pretty much talked me into sticking to a dacron main and saving a bundle of money over a composite alternative. I like someone that values my long term business. Of course I do not put a high number of hours on our boat every year and our winds are moderate.

Different situations call for different solutions...
"YMMV"
Best,
Loren in PDX

A couple of riggers who knew enough to have won my trust told me that a third reef is much less desirable for offshore work than a trisail if I could afford the price difference. A number of reasons, including the weight of the grommets high in the sail making the sail lose shape in light air, and the ease of use in the kind of conditions that they would be used in.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

Trisail

Garreth,

it's all understandable (one can add a line about all the wear and tear on the sail when the third reef is in), but tell me - how do you raise a trisail without removing the main first using a single mast track? And removing the main is... er... a pain to put it mildly.

Regards,
Stanly

I have sailed offshore on two offshore boats and neither used a trisail. Both relied on triple reefed mains. One was a 67 foot Challenge Business boat that had been used for that 1996(?) around-the-world the wrong way with amateur crews race and had encountered hurricane force winds. The other was a Swan 42 which encountered Force 10 winds on the way to Bermuda while I was on it. The triple reefed main on the Swan worked okay (until we broke the boom) in 50 knot winds although it was starting to get overpowered. In that kind of wind, you not going to be going upwind, so I am not sure sail shape is important. However, both mains had sophisticated reefing systems with blocks, not simple cringles, attached to the leech and luff.

Both boats had professional captains. If I were on my Ericson and in a position where I had to think about going to a third reef I think I would be kissing my ass goodbye. I've never even used the second reef on my main. It's better to break someone else's boat.

90 percent jib

I have an E34 1990 and my sailmaker talked me into a 90% headsail. It is very versatile and very easy to tack singlehanded without grinding. I got the sailmaker to put in two black dots on the foot: first one for half reefed and second for full reefed. I have beat into 45 knots of wind fully reefed. I put in a pad-eye on the foredeck (backed underneath with a foot square piece of half inch aluminum) just behind the achor locker and have a storm jib. I would like three reefs in the main.
Duncan.

black dots

This is a shot from my personal peanut gallery, but may be relevant:

I have often been asked by clients ordering Furling Genoas to install hash marks or reinforcing patches at some percentage of partially furled (reefed)-usually because the client has been told that these sails cannot be furled beyond 20-30% (or whatever % they were told).

My answer is that provided the sail is built correctly with a foam luff, etc., doing this defeats the whole purpose of these sails, which is the ability to "dial in" EXACTLY the % LP yoiu need for a given windspeed/sailing angle.

There is no valid reason I can think of to limit yourself to a specific size, and these patches just add weight to the sail.


My advice is always to roll the sail until you have exactly the right combination of balance and power and enjoy the benefits of a furling genoa-Any restriction which makes the owner feel he has to limit himself to 1 or 2 positions is cheating himself..

The peanut gallery speaks!

S

Furling A Jib

Hi Seth, thanks for that. You are saying exactly what my sailmaker said. However, I persisted and he put the marks on the sail. The marks are one inch diameter black fabric dots so weight is not an item, but what I like is that when my head is down yanking in the reef line and the sail is flapping like crazy I have a reference point. I don't have a foam luff, but the jib does work very well reefed in further than the second dot. Also, I find that my reefing is faster and there is less fiddling. When the wind hits 18 knots I reef to the first dot and at 25 I will go to the second. After that I just crank in "some more." I use the dots as reference points rather than absolutes. The 'absolutes' are whether or not my 'go fast/bury the rail' kids are on board, the sea state, or "dad is racing again" because he has seen another sail in the distance.

But Seth, my head sail is constructed to be reefed only to a certain point. This is from the UK site:

Reef Points: We provide a set of patches so that when the Passagemaker is reefed, the corner loads at the new head and tack are more evenly distributed. They help eliminate distortion and wear that can occur after repeated reefing. When the Passagemaker is furled to these patches, the area remaining is approximately that of the next smaller jib for your boat.

Reef patches

Most of us industry types now believe this is more of a marketing gimmick than of big value. It is true that if you reef to those points, you DO have some reinforcement at the corners. My feeling is if the sail is built correctly, you should not need it-especially since the most likely situation is that you will reef only to the size needed for a given day, and as a result you will not wear on any one location more than any other.

The point about the next size down is really irrelevant-who is to say what that is? 150, 130, 110, 90 on one boat, 150, 138, 125, 100 on another. The amount or percentage to reduce is not an exact science, and varies from owner to owner and sailmaker to sailmaker and boat to boat. Typically you go between 15%-30% with each reduction, but in that range it is wide open.

The big benefit of the furler is the ability NOT to be locked into a specific size.

So, while the patch idea may be OK for some, I feel it ends up as a limiting factor, with more negatives by far than positives.

It IS true that some sails, but not many, are built structurally with pre-determined reef locations (mainsails for one) by way of cloth alignment and/or load path reinforcing, and in these rare cases you would want to go to these points. Your sail is not (other than those patches) built that way, so you would get better performance and balance by reefing as needed rather than being limited to the patches.
Again, just my opinion, but this is more and more the typical approach!

Cheers,
S

I guess I am not convinced. I admit I don't know the first thing about making sails, but my UK TapeDrive does have its Kevlar (?) tapes running from the tack so I can see that furling it would change the load pattern on the sail and the tapes. The reef point on my sail was not a marketing gimmick but something pointed out to me by the sailmaker when he installed the sail on the boat.

Seth,
I have been following what you have been saying about sails and trim for some time, and you really know what you are saying. Thanks for all your input and patience.
Morgan Stinemetz

gale sails

Yes, thanks Seth.
I will now view my little marks with a different eye. If I was to do it again I would put three on the foot of the sail about a foot and a half apart. Not as absolutes but just as reference points. It would help with that question:how far am I reefed? When the wind gets up I like lots of reference points. It's a personal thing I guess.

What if your furler breaks?

Following this thread with interest, no-one has mentioned the issue that I thought was paramount in relying on a furler for reefing headsails - they break, especially in strong winds. Then you have a BiG problem (a 100% genoa 100% overpowered for starters) on your hands as opposed to a medium problem of trying to reef to the right size.

If you rig a Gale Sail, at least your furled headsail is contained and has little chance of setting itself out of your control. With a reefed 90% headsail, I would be nervous. All spoken without any direct experience, my disclaimer.

Roger, Kingston, ON

Guys,
There was a question posted about "what if" with a roller furler, but the guy who posted it said that he'd never had any experience with a malfunctioning roller furler. I have.
It was a long time ago, but the guy on watch on my boat in 1978--we were well offshore and in squalls--got the roller furler jammed and we could not reef the sail. We had to go downwind for hours before it was safe enough for someone to go forward and clear out the mess. When I got back from that trip I took the roller furling off the boat and started using hanked-on sails. They are not as easy to use, but they don't have anything mechanical to jam. I still use hanked-on sails to this day.
Morgan Stinemetz

Furling Dots On The Jib: E34'90

Because of this thread when we were out for the last two weeks I was very conscious of the little dots I had my sailmaker put on the foot of my jib. Lately it has been frequently blowing twenty to thirty knots so I have been reefing the 90% jib. On the last day, coming down Haro Str., gusts were to 35 and I noticed that after furling to the second dot that the wrap around the forestay extrusion got tighter and my furling line stretched (it's nylon) so that in fact, after sailing for about half an hour, I was only furled to the first dot. I did not notice this until a big gust caught us and flattened us (up to the windows). I still like my dots and furler. Whatever works I guess.
Duncan.