Holding Tank on E-35 II

[chrism]

Has anyone on the board installed a holding tank onboard? Our Raritan PH-1 crapped the bed last season. Seeing that it's the origninal toilet for the boat, 32 years of service aint bad.

We've made a decision to get an electric Raritan PH-2E. I've been looking at those Lectrasan units, and they look like a good idea. The only thing is, our holding tank is a whopping 2.5 gallons. I believe it's just there to conform with the regulations. The previous owner had the boat set up very interestingly, with the waste going over the side, but it was made to look like it was going into the tank... AND the watertanks are all labeled "WASTE"... interesting system indeed.

Before I ask my question, I DO NOT want to receive anything about how it's illegal to dump over the side. I am aware of this, and the problem WILL be corrected before we splash in May.

Has anyone installed a tank onboard? Does anyone have any experience with the LectraSan unit?

Thanks,

Chris

[gareth harris]

My boat had on original 9 Gallon tank just aft of the main bulkhead, under the seat for the dining room table.
I replaced it with the same size from the same manufacturer, via West Marine special order, a few years ago. I can not now remember the name of the company, but I can look tomorrow.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

[chrism]

9 Gallons doesn't seem like a lot... But it might work. How long does it last?

If you could look up the company, that would be great.

Thanks,

CM

[gareth harris]

The tank was made by Kracor. Dimensions to the nearest inch:
11W X 17L X 10D.

9G has been workable, on my boat men normally go over the side, but longer between pump outs would be a bonus.
A larger tank could be installed in the same space, up to about 21 X 14 X 11 by my measurements, but I never found one. I also never found a custom at a price I was willing to pay, but if a group of us from the site wanted to band together, bigger would be better for me.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

[admirals barge]

gareth

do you still have the kracor system on the boat or did you convert to a more conventional system..i'm in the process of converting the kracor system to conventional system.

74 35II #325

greg

[clayton]

Check out www.ronco-plastics.com, they have a large selection of marine holding tanks. Theirs was original equipment on our '89, approximately 15 gallon capacity, and I've taken it out and cleaned it, let it sit in the sun and fresh air, and no odor issues for a 15 year old tank. You can get them with inspection/cleanout ports in the top of the tank. 15 gallon capacity lasts 2 of us 4-5 days on a cruise. I keep the tank pumped out to prevent solids buildup on the bottom of the tank. As you know, use good, smooth-walled hose rated for sanitary use. Good luck.

Clayton

P.S. - Sean posted great photos and step by step commentary on rehabbing the head on his 35-3 in the Owner's Projects section. Don't know where the holding tank was spec'd for on your 35-2, but might give you some ideas.

[valentor]

Chris;

My E34 had a 9 gallon tank which was inadequate for my crew. I upgraded to a 16 gallon tank which was purchased at BoatUS. It is a standard rectanglular Todd Industries polyproylene tank which I was able to fit under the cockpit floor. It is held in place by two aluminum straps that I made from 1/8" x 1" stock, and rests on a piece of 1/2" plywood I glassed into the hull.

The boat had a rather unpleasant odor from the original hoses which led form the head through the cabin to the tank. I replaced these with 1.5" PVC and designed the flow so that the high point is just adjacent to the head. That allows gravity to help move the waste downhill to the tank. The PVC is attached to the tank and the head by short sections of approved marine waste hose which isolates these fixtures from the rigid tubing.

The system was very inexpensive, has worked great for four years and there is absolutely NO odor in the boat anymore.

Good luck with your project.


Steve

[Burton Mohr]

I just completed the installation of a holding system on my 35-ll (1977), I installed a 13 gal holding tank cross ways in the vee area under the fwd.berth. put a plywood cover across the vee opening to hide the tank, put the hoses in the cabinet beside the head fwd.of the sink if you need pics or more details let me know.

[chrism]

Burton, I'd love pics. I think I have a water tank up there though?? Boat is covered, and the shrink wrap guys didnt put a freaking door on...

chris

[gareth harris]

Greg - the new tank was the same as the old one except there was one less hose fitting. The original had a 5/8"(I think) with a hose to a deck fitting half way up on one end, I always assumed for washing out, which was not on the new one, otherwise it was identical. Same thickness (which I am told is crucial for odour elimination), same size vent and hose connections.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

[admirals barge]

gareth

your correct the fitting in the middle of the tank is for flushing. the hose goes to a deck fitting between the pump out and water fill fittings. have you converted to a conventional system or are you still using the retention system

greg

74 35II #325

[gareth harris]

I am not quite sure what you mean by 'conventional' system. I have kept the same head, but added a new pump, kept the holding tank in the same place, added a macerator that works, vented loops to both the flush intake and macerator through hulls, and changed all the hosing.
It has all worked nicely, my only regret is not being able to find a bigger tank that would fit the space better.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

[admirals barge]

gareth

the system i have on the boat recycles the liquid that's in the holding tank and its used to flush the toilet. its a kracor retention system. for obvious reasons i'm in the process of reconfiguring the system to use either fresh water or sea water to flush the toilet. the only problem is that i don't have a thru hull to draw sea water from. i was thinking of teeing off the sink drain but after reading threads that this configuration would draw air thru the sink unless you either fill the sink , use a stopper in the sink drain or put a shut off in the drain line. the other alternative im leaning to is flushing with fresh water.

greg
74 35II #325

[u079721]

Greg,

You might be able to use a T off the sink drain as a water source for your head, IF the drain is below the water line. I'm not sure how it is on your boat, but on mine the waterline was at least 6" above the seacock at the sink drain in the head. so you wouldn't have to close the seacock or fill the sink to get water to the head. I'm not sure whether the drain was still below the waterline when the boat was heeled though. Anyway, something to consider.

[Howard Keiper]

I installed a Lectra-San many years ago. It was one of the best things I've done for Sea Quest ever. The Lectra-San treats waste in 2 gal (approx) increments. Almost always the waste is liquid. Each time I use the head, I pump a few times, more to gather fresh saltwater on which the electro- chemical reaction depends, than to purge the tank. I actually turn on the treatment when I start the engine on the way in. There is no odor whatsoever after a treatment or two.
Solid waste, if it's absolutely necessary, gets treated right away, though.
The installation is really neat...there is no evidence that it's there. It goes behind the bulkhead under the port bow-berth and uses already installed plumbing. I've got pix if anyone is interested

Howard Keiper
Sea Quest #174
Berkeley

[chrism]

I'd like a picture!

I think that this might be a plan, or THE plan (who knows)

-New PHEII Electric head by Raritan
-Used LectraSan System via eBay
-A Raritan Holding Tank that fits around the PHEII

Any problems with that setup?

Chris

[Howard Keiper]

Hi Chris...

Got a few for you. How to send?? They're not big files, send me your e-mail or I'll try to send them here.

hk

[gareth harris]

Greg - my system is not like that at all. Flushing with recycled sewage seems a bit odd, I guess it is chemically treated to eliminate odour?
I would look into putting a T valve on the sink drain, which on my boat at least is below the water line unless you are really heeled, failing that, adding a through hull would be justified.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

[chrism]

Howard-

email me at cmwebdesign@comcast.net


thanks /)
chris

[Sean Engle]

gareth

...I was thinking of teeing off the sink drain but after reading threads that this configuration would draw air thru the sink unless you either fill the sink , use a stopper in the sink drain or put a shut off in the drain line. the other alternative im leaning to is flushing with fresh water...

greg
74 35II #325

I had the tee configuration off the sink drain - worked very well. The only issue was the 'sucking sound' that would sometimes come out of the drain - but only if if someone was really 'enthusiastic' about their pumping - an issue easily solved by leaving the rubber stopper in the sink

The benefit of blowing out the entire system with fresh water with that configuration - from one end to the other - with a single (or two) sink full of water was worth the sound issues, I felt.

//sse

[jmoses]

Be preparred to spend close to $1,500 - $2,000 now-a-days for a Lectra San install (actual unit, heavy battery cables, breaker, Y-valve if not already installed, etc.)

In addition, a Lectra San will not meet "No discharge" zone regs. I believe Rariton is proposing that the unit meets the no discharge regs, but as of yet, I don't think it meets that test per CA regs. Nor will a Lectra San work in fresh or brackish water. You will need to add salt to make it work correctly.

Also, they are power hungry and if at anchor for a while, it will drain the E-35 MKII's two batteries unless you run the 'ol A-4 after taking a.....well, you get the idea.

As for mixing the sink and the head, I'd stay away from that. I have visions of siphoning into the toilet when hard heeled to port, let alone the chance that oders and possibly the sewage may pump up through the sink if the seals are bad or the discharge valve is closed off (depending on the head make).

A tank install is probably the cheapest and easiest to do and meet regs.

John M.

[Brisdon]

I installed a bladder holding tank on my 35-2. It's 15 gallons. It is under the v birth, port side. I couldn't fit a rigid tank in there, although one could if the drawer were pulled out and a hatch cut under the matress. I have a Lavac toilet which stretches the tank capacity a lot more than most heads. The bladder tank has been in about four years and it's been trouble free, but I do inspect it regularly with a flash light to make sure it isn't on the verge of a nasty explosion of crap. The nice thing about having the tank in this position is that it is directly behind the toilet on the otherside of the bulk head. I think it's clumbsy to pump sewage all the way around to the salon. We can get through a long weekend with the 15 gallon tank, but we have to watch how many times we pump that Lavac handle. THe tank was made by Vetus and it's basically Hypalon. Don't get one made out of vinyl, they're no good.

[Howard Keiper]

John's remarks re the Lectra San are more-or-less correct...with some exceptions. There is no Y valve. EVERYTHING that goes into the head goes into and (eventually) through the unit. The battery / cabling are non issues in a practical sense. It's about a 10' run from my batteries to the unit and 10 ga. marine grade wire is fairly cheap and very easy to work with.
But his remarks about running the unit are well worth considering. Through the years we've had the unit we've refined a regimen that works everytime. While at anchor or anytime, anyone who cares to take a casual whizz may do so and the head gets pumped a few times to clear it. We like to avoid running the treatment until there is some electrical aid from the engine...usually we cycle fresh seawater through it on the way home, start the engine and push the START button. Assuming that only urine needs to be delt with the unit's macerator doesn't macerate anything and the electro-chemical thing only lasts about two minutes. But that two minutes will draw about 20A or so and I don't like to consume that much without being able to replentish it, hence running the engine...but at that time I'm running the engine anyway, so it's just a matter of convenience.
Let's say someone actually had to take a dump (kids seem to do this a lot) or got sick and couldn't make it to the rail for some reason. The difference is that we simply don't wait until we're underway to initiate the treatment. The battery energy is more than sufficient to go through three or four cycles. It's good to remember that NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING goes into the head that hasn't been eaten. By the time something is actually discharged it has been through at least two treatment cycles and is, supposedly, "biolgically "clean". In any case, there is no odor whatsoever... ever.
I should add that I have a switchable manual regulator with which I can pretty much control the rate at which I recharge my batteries...anytime. This has been a very nice project from start to finish. I particularly like the idea that nothing had to be compromised in the layout or build of the fwd berth or head.
hk

[chrism]

What is a sanitary thing to do with TP?

When on a charter last year in the Bahamas, the owner of the vessel simply said "toss it out the port"

One bad landing on the deck, and that practice was over :rolleyes:

[jmoses]

I'm not so sure I'd invest in a used Lectra San unless it was tested ala Raritan. I have seen many a busted Lectra San and there is no way to know if it's working unless tested by a factory rep or repair center (yeah it makes noise, no lights come on the control panel but is it REALLY doing it's thing?). Plus, you are buying someone else's used sh*t box? Gross.......

John M.

[Loren Beach]

This thread is heading off in a stinky direction!
I have *never* heard of someone throwing "used" TP out of an open port. On second thought, maybe after enough rum, when all forms of aberrent behevior begin to appear... maybe... :eek:

On our boat and all the others I have sailed on for several decades the paper goes in the head, along with the other "natural stuff" that goes into the head. Depending on the quality of the head pump and general condition, you sometimes have to pump it "every six sheets," as we explain to guests.
:)

Thanks for an eye-rolling chuckle!

Loren in PDX

[rssailor]

Check out the Wilcox Crittenden Quiet flush head. This head is an electric head that uses fresh water to flush with. Very easy install and fresh water for flushing is the only way to go. Yeah and definetly check out Ronco for a holding tank. I have had only good experiance with them. Ryan

[Howard Keiper]

The literature that describes the care and feeding of your Lectra San says it's OK for TP to be flushed along with more traditional forms of human waste. Actually, we keep a number of those plastic bags you get at supermarkets on Sea Quest for any number of "throw-away" uses...oily rags, TP, and anything else that needs to be stored temporarily for disposal ashore. A note regarding oily rags... I have definately swung my thinking from rags to the blue paper Shop-Towels you can get at Costco...much more cost effective and the rolls stow more conveniently.
We took the Alaska Eagle voyage from Hawaii to Tahiti two years ago, and were way more than impressed with the way garbage was disposed of at sea....we'd never done that before so were easily impressed. But the gist was, that there were some things like uncoated paper products, cloth, table scraps, etc., that were routinely thrown overboard. Plastic in any form was collected, cleaned and stowed for later disposal

[u079721]

Well, to follow Loren's lead...

We found that the "paperwork" could tend to clog the Joker valve on our Ranitan PHII, and allow the bowl to fill back up. Which stopped as soon as we quite putting any paper down the bowl. But what do to with it - without tossing it overboard?

Well, after after a few years what we settled on for a cruising routine was to keep a quart sized zip loc baggie in the head under the galley sink, and all the TP for that day goes into the baggie. Every night when I put out out the trash I retrieve the TP baggie and put out a fresh one. Odor during the day does not seem to be a problem.

Putting out the trash involves transferring the day's waste from the galley bag into a heavy air and water tight PVC DRY bag, the type used for rafting. These are small enough to fit in the aft lazarette, and keep all the odors in till we reach port every week or so.

I doubt whether I would ask a casual day guest to follow this routine, but for the two of us it worked quite well.

[Martin King]

I'm with Steve. Having seen first hand what sanitary napkins and
TP can do to a joker valve, the rule on our boat and many others
I sailed on is nothing goes in the head that hasn't been eaten first!
Anything else is bagged up for disposal ashore. Have you ever
attempted a rebuild on a marine head while underway? I have and
let me tell you kneeling over it in the cramped confines of the compartment
while the effluent runs down your arm and the stench fills the interior
is not a pretty picture!

[gareth harris]

I have provided biodegradable toilet paper, which is much thinner than standard, to guests to use with my PHII pump, and have had no problems yet, although it has not been used all that much; generally my crew are too ugly to use paper for number onesies, and mostly number twosies get done at the dockhouse.

Using a plastic bag for paper is something you get used to in much of the third world, where there is not enough water pressure to flush it away; but I have been hoping to avoid it on my boat.

I guess that throwing paper overboard is no worse than pumping the tank once you are sufficiently far from shore, but as a man who loves to swim from his boat, I hate the thought of it in bays. The sight of the ocean in all of the heavy shipping areas I have been to is disgusting for many reasons.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

[footrope]

In my 38, which I suspect has the original head and pump (well, rebuilt a few times I guess), the PO told me that single-ply TP is the only acceptable paper. He complained of joker clogs with 2-ply. We've had no problems that way in the 18 months we've had the boat. We buy our TP from West Marine.

I'm thinking of installing a single handle sink fixture so you can start the water with your elbow when your finger has gone through the paper, tho. :(

Our 25 gallon (per PO claim) L-shaped holding tank is under the port dinette seat, just aft of the head. When the Coast Guard boarded us in May I was reminded we don't have a "Y" valve. Everything goes into the tank and there's a manual Whaler pump for offshore pumpouts. The PO did 3 coastal trips between Washington and San Diego.

[Brisdon]

I have a friend that insists on putting the dirty TP in a bag and not flushing it down the head. I'm rather disgusted by that bit of tradition. Why not just wipe your ass on the table cloth at the Russian Tea Room. So what if the toilet completely exploded every couple of years, that's still better than dealing with crap rags every day of the week. We've been flushing paper down the Lavac for five years and no problem yet. My friend who puts the TP in the little bag has one of those expensive electric vacu flush toilets. Why spend all that money if it dosn't work. I have a confession, when I'm on his boat, I put the dirty paper down the head and then I garble up a few fresh sheets and toss them in his special souveneer bag. If he actually inspects the contents of this bag he's not going to admit it, so I feel pretty safe about this. :devil:

[Davis Modlin]

I don't know man, Going onto someone else's boat and not respecting thier wish's.

Davis
E-29
#226
Holy Guacamole :nonono:

[u079721]

As I mentioned above, I would probably not request a guest to bag their TP, especially if they were not hard core cruisers.

But Brisdon, I would suggest that your attitude towards these matters would be a bit different if YOU ever had to work on the head. It's not a question of just having to rebuild the head every couple of years, but rather what happens if it clogs, or leaks back into the bowl and overflows when you are hard on the wind (don't ask....).

[chrism]

I think I'll call Raritan and see what they will do regarding a used lectra san. Although the idea of buying someone elses fecal matter is a little exciting, I'm buying the thing because its about half the cost used... and if Raritan will inspect it at a low cost, all the better.

cm