Why Should Pacific Seacraft Support EY.c?

[PSC]

Pacific Seacraft bought EY.c to maintain the sites existence. The seller needed to sell it.

I would appreciate any thoughts about how PSC can make EY.c beneficial to PSC as well as Ericson owners.

Gene

[Sean Engle]

Pacific Seacraft bought EY.c to maintain the sites existence. The seller needed to sell it.

I would appreciate any thoughts about how PSC can make EY.c beneficial to PSC as well as Ericson owners.

Gene


Hi Gene -

I congratulate you for coming to the boards to discuss the issues, and sincerely welcome you. I think I can say for everyone that we're very glad you're here. For those of you unaware, Gene is the President of Pacific Seacraft Corporation (PSC).

My personal opinion is that the Ericson family (existing Ericson owners) can be of direct benefit to PSC simply by virtue of both parties being who they are. Ericson yachts are a known quantity among sailors - representing quality construction, excellent design and solid performance. PSC's boats are also known for being some of the best in the world, with excellence in construction, materials, design and performance.

The issue, as I see it, is that the Ericson family requires a stable environment that they can call home. If you look at which Ericson owners inhabit which Ericson websites, much of what you find is related to who the 'new' owners are (new defined as purchased within the last four years). Many of these new owners have come to EY.c because of the information they were able to find here, as well as the sense of community and assurance that they will not be left alone once they make their purchase.

At the other end of this equation are Ericson owners who are selling their boats to either go on to other activities, or to another yacht purchase. Many of these owners should be considered within PSC's interest, either as a pool of potential buyers (either new or used), or as a reference to other potential buyers.

Boat owners - Ericson, PSC or otherwise, talk to each other frequently - and of course, negative info travels much faster than positive. As one owner emailed me this weekend…"A dispassionate recitation of all the facts of the company's treatment of the Ericson owners cannot be good for their company, and would seem to use up whatever "good will" they have banked up for a rainy day. FWIW, there are 4 PSC owners in my YC, and all are internet savvy, and a couple of them are former flag officers and, to some limited extent in our little community, have an audience when they talk about this sort of stuff."

Conversely, I'm sure that when PSC originally purchased the molds and rights to the Ericson line, some amount of applause could be heard. Like Mercedes purchasing BMW, I'm sure that many people felt that if anyone was going to purchase the line, they were in excellent hands with PSC. PSC is known for the kind of quality and workmanship that Ericson owners take pride in. I myself have chartered the PSC 37 and 40 several times - and have been seen eyeing them yearningly from the deck of my own E35-3 more than once!

So, how can EY.c benefit PSC? Well, as a believer in supportive families, supportive companies and long term associations and friendships - I have to say again, as I did in 2003 - which I believe that the best relationship for a group like EY.c is within the bounds of the owners of the yacht line (PSC). I believed then, as I do now, that the pool of Ericson owners can benefit PSC by providing good reference, solid brand loyalty and feedback (if it's listened to) over time. None of these things will bear fruit for PSC early on - nor should they be expected to. However, given time and the right interaction between the two, the relationship could prove to be mutually beneficial in the long term.

Imagine, for instance - if PSC ever decided to ever build in a bottom/entry line brand with Ericson - to produce boats that would compliment, but not compete with their PSC line, how much benefit there would be to having a good relationship with 2000 existing owners in the US. If you consider the linkage - the Ericson brand could serve as an entry way for new buyers and thus build brand loyalty that will pay out over time towards the higher end of your business (this is a page from Mercedes' playbook - remember all the jokes when the baby Benz was introduced? What do you think would happen today if they went back to only making $70,000 automobiles?).

Everyone is aware that the boatbuilding business is a very, very tough business to be in. That right now, PSC and the other manufacturers are probably not enjoying the best of times - people understand that. But imagine, for just moment, if PSC enjoyed not only the reputation of building boats like tanks - but also had a large reserve of good will and positive feelings among 2000 Ericson owners - even without actually producing the boats themselves. I really think you would be surprised.

What I would suggest - as an amicable resolution to this issue - is that some kind of an arrangement be struck, wherein an independent Ericson Owners Association is formed, and they maintain and run their own site. That PSC basically open permit or license that group to use the database as seed and the related docs and features to that end.

The association would manage the entire thing itself, including site management and associated costs. PSC would then receive some preferential treatment and recognition as the 'parental figure' in the site - with some pre-agreed to level of site advertising and links, etc - and you go from there. Such an arrangement would cost PSC nothing to implement, nothing to maintain, and would cast the company in a much better light than it is in now. It would tell perspective purchasers of PSC yachts that the corporation takes good care of its step children - and that they can expect as good or better treatment from PSC directly.

You know, given the choice of moving in with family or moving in with strangers, people will choose family 9 times of out 10 - as long as the situation is a healthy one, and everyone grows as a result.

I think I've written enough. I look forward to seeing what other people have to say.

//sse

[Loren Beach]

Interesting to see this post to this fine site, after it has been built independently by Ericson and Olson owners for four long years. This leads to several questions:
Are you, perchance, Gene as in Gene Kohlmann and do you speak for Don Kohlmann as well? What are your positions with PSC?

***As to benefits to the Ericson owners, I admit to some bias, being a moderator from the start. I have received a huge amount of help from the other owners and have tried to be helpful wherever I could, in return. I note that a *lot* of other owners participate in the forums.

Following the recent failure of PSC to pay the monthly billing for this site, the (emotional) reaction from Ericson owners seems to be a desire to either: 1) keep this site up and running "as is", or 2) to move to a new site with an independent owners organization. A lot of owners have not only expressed great admiration for Sean's efforts, but have voted with their wallets to show support and gratitude.

As a person who has using the internet for quite a few years, I could see right at the start that Sean was putting in tremendous time and insightful talent to build this site. It performs far better than most I have used. Indeed, the search function is one of the few anywhere that works properly. :D

***The potential benefits to PSC have been discussed somewhat over at the more "social" Ericson listserv at Sailnet.com. It looks to me like PSC needs us for: 1) repeat customers to buy PSC sailboats or trawlers, and 2) a referral source for future customers. A distant #3 reason would be some commerce $$ in spare parts sales for middle-aged Ericsons, if PSC's cost of capital and inventorying can be kept reasonable, which I realize is an ongoing challenge.

So, please do fill in the blanks about yourself and your Goals at PSC.
:)

My intentions are to continue to participate in the site and help others when I can. I shall keep improving my 1988 Olson and try to post projects when they are general enough to be of interest to the larger Ericson Yacht-owning population.


Most Respectfully,
Loren Beach, Portland, OR
Balding Retiree,
Skipper, Olson 34 #8

:egrin:

[Sean Engle]

...Are you Gene as in Gene Kohlmann of Pacific Seacraft? Do you speak for Don Kohlmann as well? What is your position with the company? (I ask this because I distrust rumors, positive or negative, heard from other boat builders and brokers for the last 15 years.) In one of my past lives, I was an adjudicator for almost two decades, and ask these questions because I need to know who is on the other side of the table and what's at stake.)...

...There is also a Profile for a "PS Administrator" showing no name and no posts ever recorded...

His account appears to be valid - it's pointed at his Pacific Seacraft email address, and he would have to had confirmed it when he created the account, so...

Also, 'PS Administrator' was an administration login I created in July for them to admin the site, but it's never been used.

//sse

[clohman]

I've felt a kinship to Pacific Seacraft at boat shows, talking with sales reps about the "evolutionary" relationship between my Ericson and the newer PS models. I refer people who express an interest in my Ericson to the current manufacturer - PS. The EY.c web site strengthens those relationships with a significant number of Ericson owners, some of whom will eventually buy a new/newer boat. We tend to buy from people we trust - like those who suport us at boat shows - and with the EY.c site.

[ccorcoran]

Hi Gene,

you may remember me from the mid to late 80s when I helped you create/produce the then-current manuals, some brochures, etc. (MacIntosh stuff?); or, you and Don may recall me as an owner of an '86 E28, '87 E38 and now an '87 E34. All that said, I've been a dyed-in-the-wool Ericson junkie for a long time; in fact, I bother Don at all the shows just to keep the home fires burning.

Benefit to PSC
I was thrilled when PSC decided to acquire the Ericson brand and continue to build boats and was sorry to see that production end. The benefits to PSC have been stated above, admirably. Ericson owners are fiercly loyal; after the acquisition, we had a new "rich" uncle that we could call. I don't know of a single Ericson owner who doesn't look fondly upon their PSC cousins; that alone is worth its weight in gold. Where else could you find a pre-qualified, predisposed network of potential customers, all by simply staying in touch with them? The website is a priceless marketing tool and should be treated accordingly.

Benfits to Ericson Owners
Sean said it best -- a sense of community -- and that's also worth a king's randsom. This site provides is with a forum in which to contact other owners, disucss upgrades, consider modifications, share insights and discover new options and tricks to solve old problems. Again, using the rich uncle metaphor, it's nice to know that someone - PCS in this case - cares enough about us to keep this brand alive and, practically, speaking, keep in contact with a significant number of potential buyers.

I was instrumetal in the acquisition of Aston Martin by FoMoCo; Ford didn't need the additional 1,300 annual units (hey, Ford loses more cars off the back of trnasporters); Ford needed the cache of Aston Martin and Aston Martin needed the technology and resources Ford had to offer. The similarities should be clear - Ericsons still have an excellent reputation as does Pacific Seacraft. By extending the PSC umbrella you create even stronger brands for both PSC and Ericson. Truth is, we're not going anywhere and if we do, we'll probably go with someone who cares enough take notice of what's important to us.

Come hell or high water, I have a suspicion that we'll continue this website no matter what it takes. IMHO, it would be nicer if PSC stepped up and took care of its extended family; we're talking pennies here and the potential upside in image alone is worth the price of admission. BTW, I strongly suggest that Sean remain closely involved with EY.c his passion has given rise to one of the finest, most uesable sites in sailing and he should be recognized and rewarded for his outstanding work.

If you have any questions or if additional clarification is needed, please contact me; I have personally committed to Sean to do whatever I can to keep this site up and running; I suspect I'm not the only one.

[chrism]

Another car "thing"

If Ford bought Toyota, and stopped building Toyotas, wouldn't they still support the vehicle? Wouldn't it make Ford look bad to prospective buyers, especially former Toyota owners?

Would Pacific Seacraft look good if it stopped caring about us Ericson owners? I could never afford a PS, but I might someday. I've been known for being stubborn, and I might not consider buying a PS because of this whole situation.

But, Gene, you make a damn good looking boat.

Sorry if none of this made sense, but I've got a lot of things going through my mind...

Chris

[sailingdeacon]

To answer your question, I need to know how much it cost to keep the site running- and if cost was your primary consideration in closing it.

[Tom Plummer]

Gene,

As I sat and pondered your question about how PSC can make EY.c beneficial to PSC as well as Ericson owners. It occurred to me that perhaps I should share how it was that I decided to buy my E35-2.

When I retired from the U.S. Navy in 1989 I immediately found employment with the Boeing Co. in Everett, WA. Now that I had a stable address the first thing I wanted was a sailboat. I really liked the design of the Crealock 37 and remember well the adds showing one of them surviving an encounter with a reef. The reputation of PSC was the best but the boat had two drawbacks. The price was to rich for me at that time and the headroom would not fit my 6’8” frame.

We looked for two years for the perfect boat for us. Then one day the 82 year old broker who had promised not to call until he had a boat that met all of our concerns called, we had not heard from him in a year. He said he had the near perfect boat for us. When we looked over the boat we were impressed with all that we saw but knew nothing about the reputation of the maker. Then we found out that PSC had bought the molds for Erickson’s and was making them. The fact that PSC thought that they we a good enough boat to associate their name with them was the deal clincher.

Prior to the creation of the Ericson site I had contacted PSC requesting information and parts and was given the impression that PSC didn’t really care about Ericson owners and it had soured my good feelings about the company. When you decided to host EY.c a fact that was widely advertised on both sailnet and on EY.c your stock went up with me again because to me it showed loyalty to your customers

The Ericson name enjoys a solid reputation as a quality production boat and a tremendous loyalty among its owners. I see myself as the owner of a PSC product and the brand loyalty for Ericson is also brand loyalty for PSC.

We still have our Ericson and love her but as of late we have been thinking that a boat like PSC 38T Coastal Voyager would be a lot easer on my wife who is disabled. Then something happens which gives me cause to wonder if PSC in financial trouble and they are not then is what has happened to the Ericson site an indication of how they will treat other PSC product owners in the future.

How do you benefit? When I think about a new boat I think first about PSC products and your being associated with EY.c enhances and reinforces that thought process.

How do I as an Ericson owner benefit? It gives me a place to communicate with others about Erickson’s because as things age the need TLC.

[bigtyme805]

Gene

I was devastated that you did not continue to build the Ericson line. You bought the molds and put them in the grave. Why? To limit your competition? Ericson was never a threat to your competition. Now this! I would never buy a PSC based on your past experience with business. As a doctor you can bet I will spread the word about your business practices. Now you feel we should give you a reason why you should contribute to the Ericson site? Not in this lifetime.

Don Anderson
E27 Owner
Channel Islands, CA

[Joe Benedict]

Gene:

Just two-cents from another greyhair. When I was looking for a boat, Ericson was not even on the list of potentials. (Lake Michigan is populated by the more common list of suspects.) I was inspecting some boats with the broker and he got a call and told me to go ahead to this boat that was just on the market. I went ahead, climbed up the ladder, and knew this was my boat. Since then I have learned that Ericson owners are a very loyal group who take great pride in, and care of, their possession. Companies are always trying to find ways of reaching a target market not only for sale to them but for opinions and suggestions. To obtain the later information, you would need to contact people who actually sail and maintain their boats. From the postings on the EYc website, it is obvious this is the type who visit the site. PSC would simply benefit by having a target market in the current EYc users.

Since PSC already maintains a website, perhaps you should look at the EYc as an add-on and not a separate expense. Based on some experience I have had with web services, you may want to sit down with your service provider and discuss the services they are providing.

Finally, I see PSC is not listed as an exhibitor at Strictly Sail Chicago. If it isn't too late to sign up, you may want to come and talk to the freshwater group. (There's at least one other Ericson owner attending.) Lake Michigan is a big place.

[Mindscape]

Gene - I'm in agreement with most of the points already made. Ericson owners are loyal and want/need a place to 'congregate'. This site has created that feeling of community. The loyalty to the sites founder and the value perceived by the members of this community can be seen in the posts to Sean concerning the future of the site.

The value to PSC is in building that loyalty at some level so that the members here feel as if PSC is part of this community. The good will and positive feelings that come from that can only be good for PSC out in the boating community. At least some of this community may someday buy a PSC product. Interestingly enough the previous owner of my E32-3 is out looking at trawlers. Additionally I know I certainly wouldn't object to more PSC presence in the form of advertising, links and participation in this board. It's cheap advertising. Are there actual sales leads buried in this board for PSC?, I don't know and doubt that there are short term sales to be had by supporting the site. It's all about PSC's reputation and the perception of the user community here of PSC. We can write books about what great folks we are to have on your side, but in the end it's something that PSC must decide. In the end I think everyone here would just like to clearly understand where you stand with us and this board, and it's future. If you decide you can't justify supporting it, let us know and give us a chance to preserve it somewhere else, it's too valuable resource to the sailors of Ericson yachts to be lost over a marketing decision. If you decide that it's worth keeping, thanks! and come on over and spend some time with us, we'd love to here your thoughts (or some of the people that work with you) because you guys know boats and must have a wealth of good info you can lend us.

At this point I know I'm down on PSC for jeopardizing such a valuable resource as this site, it's as if they don't appreciate the value to the sailor. Is PSC in financial trouble, do they just not value the Ericson owners? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I sure would want to know the answers before I invest in a PSC product. This is an opinion that I would share with my boating friends down at the marina or yacht club, not because I want to strike back at PSC but because I have to question a top end boat company that doesn't seem to appreciate the value in a resource like this site.

So Gene, that's my story, thanks for coming out to listen. Please let us know where you and PSC stand on this thing.

[Jeff Asbury]

I have basically already responded to your question Gene by sending a e-mail to Don Kohlmann through the Pacific Seacraft web site last week. Don was listed in the contact section. Essentially what I said was that I was disappointed that PSC had let the site go without any notice. I also stated that I had spent a substantial amount of money with PSC on the Ericson parts they distributed. Rub rails and extrusions to be exact. I would not have known that PSC was a distributor of Ericson parts if it were not for the EYC web site. I assume that PSC still is a distributor of Ericson parts. I also agree with Chris Matthews scenario that stated: "If Ford bought Toyota, and stopped building Toyotas, wouldn't they still support the vehicle?" I also am a big fan of the PSC line of yachts, and may consider acquiring one some day but in making the decision to purchase a PSC yacht or any yacht, I would have to consider the customer support as just as important as the quality of the yacht.

All and all I guess my answer to your question of, "How PSC can make EY.c beneficial to PSC as well as Ericson owners." would have to be, PSC would benefit by maintaining its integrity of supporting it's former product line as well as profit by continuing sales of Ericson parts.

I have already sent a nominal contribution to Sean to help keep the EYC site up. I will continue to support the EYC site as long as it is available with or with out Pacific Seacraft's support. It just seems to me that a company that sells high end expensive yachts could afford a the minimal expense of the EYC web site to support their former product line.

Jefferson W. Asbury
Owner of a 1973 E-27, hull #355
San Pedro, CA

[Mike Thomas]

Gene
Thanks for making yourself available to the group.

From my point of view being part of a group of Ericson owners ready, willing and able to help each other is very valuable. I have already stated that value in sending some funds over to Sean to rescue the site and would be willing to help further. In as far as PSC owning the site I don’t think that it matters all that much. Like any other member of the group you get out of it what you put in. I think that this group could be valuable to PSC but that value is something that you will have to establish by participating.

It seems that we (the group) are an untapped resource for PSC. We should not be looked at as a profit center. We communicate with each other because we want to and value each others input. As other have stated we will find a way to communicate with or without PSC’s support. I think it’s nice to have PSC involved.

My guess is that as successful businessman you are asking your question to make a cost justification of the expenses and time required to keep the site running in it’s current form? If so, then the shear volume of responses and dollars sent to rescue the site should speak for itself.

If you are trying to assign a value to the site/name in order to profit from it’s sale then I would hope that you would look at things from another point of view.

How much time, money and manpower does PSC spend on marketing (good press) per year?
How much time, money and manpower does PSC spend doing charity work (good will) per year?
How much time, money and manpower does PSC spend trying to get feedback from their target market?
What’s your brand name worth?

How much does having a relationship with the group really cost PSC?
What efforts have PSC made to use this resorce?

Thanks for all of the support that PSC has given to the group in the past. I hope that you find the value that you are looking for by engaging the group (as you have done today) in the future. If not, then please make it easy for us to leave the dock and sail on our own.


Mike Thomas
E-29
Babylon, NY

[Mike.Gritten]

Gene,

I am a relative newcomer to the Ericson community, having owned and sailed our E35 MkII since June of 2003. We live aboard our boat and have aspirations of extended cruising a few years down the road. When we were looking for our boat, the primary resource we used once we saw a couple of Ericsons, was the EY.c site. The more we read, the more we liked the Ericson line of boats. It was VERY comforting to see that a builder of PSC's reputation had taken over the Ericson line after the company's demise, and were offering at least some support.
With so many companies having left the market in the last 20 years or so, we were concerned about buying a boat from one of these makers. EY.c has proven time and again that our choice was a good one. Ericsons are well built boats that sail well, but, as with all boats, require a significant amount of care and repair. I am confident that we wouldn't have purchased Papillon if EY.c had not existed.
I was pleasantly surprised by PSC's move last year to purchase the site from Sean. He has done a stellar job with EY.c and should be rewarded for his efforts. After seeing the rebirth of C&C and Columbia, I was optimistic that we might see a new "Ericson" offering from PSC. Perhaps, as someone suggested, an entry level vessel that might be seen as a stepping stone to the PSC 37 or 40. Needless to say, I was devastated when I read that PSC had decided not to continue paying for the website.
I don't think anyone using this site expects you (PSC) to continue to support this site if there's no up-side for you. As suggested, an Ericson Owner's Association might be the way to go. As a group, they could offset, if not completely pay for, costs associated with running this site. I see PSC's role more one of support where needed.
Gene, you should have seen the response at the 2004 Ericson NW Rendezvous when Stuart announced that Pacific Seacraft had donated some Ericson helmet logo decals for draw prizes! You can't buy that kind of goodwill. It made it seem like we had "factory backing" for the event. Now, granted these people are owners of boats produced by a long-gone company. But, they ARE sailors. And sailors aspire to sail bigger and better boats...you guys can do the math.
Anyway, I've kind of rambled on....what else is new?! My point is, we look to PSC as the parent company. When we look to move up, we've already got the warm fuzzies for you guys. Stay in the picture. It's a small thing that could pay you some big dividends down the road.

[Steve Swann]

A lot of passionate and very well stated positions are posted here. Just from the prose it is apparent that the Ericson Crowd is educated, articulate, and very much the type of sailor/buyer/owner that most companies would want to have viewing their products in a favorable light. A lot of us are boating consumers in every sense of the word and will likely own more boats in our lifetimes (Along with my Ericson 25, I also own a Nor'Sea 27 at the moment).

It is my judgement that PSC is teetering on the brink of the proverbial “pooping in their nest.” At the very least, "appearances" and "good will" are at stake here and PSC is directly in our crosshairs. Many a good company does not see the irreparable damage caused by this freight train of turning sentiment until it is too late. I know something about this since I own a marketing research company and for 15 years have advised many companies, both large and small, about this very subject. Brand image is important, Gene, and frightfully fragile.

It is my professional opinion PSC should follow through with what, at least implied in my mind, PSC was going to do earlier this year when it was announced that they had purchased the EYc web site. I see stronger reasons for PSC to pay Sean his due and follow through with building a solid bridge into the Ericson owners than not. This is probably the best recourse left for PSC to preserve any remaining faith and loyalty amongst the Ericson Community and will be seen as damage control.

At the end of the day, the Ericson Crowd will stick together with or without PSC. After all, we own the boats, they don't... :egrin:

Steve Swann
E25 Seahorse

[JORGE]

Gene,
You have said that you bought the site to maintain it, and I believe this was done well enough. And you did provide an existence for those E.Y. owners, dating all the way back to the earliest models. I used to peruse the Sailnet site , but thought that there was a larger, more concerned crew. There was, The crew at E.Y. com. I needed the issues involved with my project( the main focus in my life) to be understood by those in the same family.
I am serious about this boat(32') and would like to size-up when the time comes, to buy another "serious" sailboat. Why not give E. Y. com a chance to keep the water flowing. Cost of E.Y. com / ROI(investment) = Yield of new interest.

I think that PSC can be beneficial to E.Y.com,as a parent in charge of a flock.
Just look at what "Catalina" and "Sabre" (there I said it!) do with their owner sites. They created Magnetism, something that just doesn't grow on trees(or in the water), and a place for owner to seek a reliable answer, (to their prayers!).

Hopefully, E. Y. com will continue with the backing of PSC. However, I also realize that E.Y.com is ready to run it alone, since it is in hands of many capable enthusiasts.

[gjersvik]

Gene:

Here are some other points to consider:
- The number of Ericson Yachts is finite and each hear that number shrinks, especially with hurricane damage this year.
- Having experienced Ericson quality and seaworthyness, we tend to be very particular about what we want in our next boat. A cheap plastic fantastic/ mass produced boat will not suffice.
- Numerous marketing studies have clearly demonstrated the value of brand loyalty, have you? Have you given thought and direction to merging the Ericson identity into the PSC identity, or did you just assume that because you bought the molds this would happen on its own?
- Have you taken action on this site (your site) to promote your new boats? If not, why are you wasting this marketing opportunity?
- When you purchased the Ericson name did the contract include a price for the molds and another for intangibles such as "good will"? This is the good will portion, as you know it does not mean doing good deeds, but refers to the good name and reputation associatied with the Ericson name.

This is not meant as an opportunity to beat up on you or PSC, but to give you the opportunity to think about the intangables associated with the Ericson/ PSC names.

[Mitch]

I apologize if this has already been said. There are lots of impassioned posts that I confess I have not read in their entirety.

My answer to the question of why PSC should keep the site up is this: You bought it. If you didn't want to maintain the site you shouldn't have purchased it. By purchasing it you have shouldered the burden of keeping it alive. If you now close it down it will make PSC look very bad and perhaps be the deciding factor when current Ericson owners decide not to buy PSCs when they upgrade next or not to purchase Ericson parts from PSC when they become needed.

There are real humans who feel very strongly about this site. Purchasing it was more like adopting a child than buying a toy that you can throw away when it becomes a burden.

[Saunders]

I would think that the decision on whether PS supports this group and site depends on whether short term vision or long term vision is at stake. If the short term view is taken, it is unlikely that PS profits for the next few years will be affected one way or the other. The cost to support would be minimal but the return would probably not affect the near term bottom line. There may be a few hundred angry Ericson owners but it is not likely that PS will lose a sale this year or next even if it returns Ey.com to the Ericson owners.
If, on the other hand, long term vision is considered, PS will be applying a principal which it (and Ericson before it) have considered important. Quality is worth paying for and will give long lasting returns. Happy members of a family who will continue to sing praises of quality sailboats. Even if PS had not bought the molds and name, seems to me that promoting the principal of quality would be very much in its long term interest.
Can PS reject Ericson quality and loyalty and still build a long lasting legacy?- maybe, shucks, probably- but it would not cost much and I cannot see a downside to PS.
In all probability, we will survive in one form or another. Would be nice to think that some companies still believe in the principal of quality for its own sake. What an inexpensive way to exress that point.

Saunders of Music

[Jeff Asbury]

Well said Mitch,

I think that is the best answer to Gene's question I've read so far. :egrin:

[Arkiebar]

Marketing. If you want to sell new boats, take care of the owners of your present boats, including your predessor in interest.

The present owners are the best sales force for the company, or its worst nightmare.

Jim Holmberg

[Geoff Johnson]

A few years ago I paid PSC about $500, as I recall, for new aluminum rubrails. This site is filled with inquiries about finding replacement parts. It seems to me that there are a number of parts unique to Ericsons where PSC could make some money, at least enough to offset the cost of the site (which seems to be self-generating, in any event). For example, I have been scrounging for replacement parts for the Navtec rigging. I found one part at SailRite but am stymied for the others. Torresen Marine has figured out that the future is in parts.

[cawinter]

Like many other owners expressed in this thread, I, too, was delighted that PSC stepped forward to 'maintain the site's existence'. A reputable company with a strong historical connection to Ericsons, what could be better... I am sure PSC thought about cross-selling opportunities, upcoming product replacement, pre-qualified lead gathering and a plethora of other marketing catch words when the decision was made. Therfore I hope the question is not to justify the value of the site to PSC. Other companies run owner loyalty programs at great expense, and the hosting of a site will hardly qualify as a tremendous expense to anyone in this business. Sean's proposal of a user/owner group maintaining the site under the umbrella of the PSC 'angel' must sound like a win-win proposal to everyone involved. With the operational costs and efforts offset, PSC is ideally positioned to reap the benefits of brand value and recognition and to continue to be viewed as a company that does not abandon sizable groups of its owners. The alternative, and I have difficulty to consider the consequences, of 'we now own it, we can let it fade away' has hardly any upside, certainly not for PSC.

Dr. Christoph A. Winter
Owner Ericson 34 'Dangriga', #267 (1988)
Atlantic Highlands, NJ

[Razz]

First of all, we all have to live by our decisions, and FWIW, I think PSC's purchase of Ericson and the subsequent demise of Ericson was a poor decision on PSC's part. The end result is that Ericson owners have been alienated there is no up-sell potential for PSC.

PSC builds a fine boat, let there be no confusion about it. Ericson owners will eventually sell their boats and if they buy a new one, it probably won't be a PSC due to price, competitor's boats, customer service, and trust. I don't know how PSC stays in business when they do so many things wrong when it comes to their market.

Sean has done a wonderful job pulling together Ericson owners. I personally have learned a lot from this community and I've tried to share my learnings. Remember, however, that the use of the internet to build communities is simple, inexpensive, and powerful by the very nature of the community created.

You know, this site is slick, but it can also be accomplished setting up a FREE group on Yahoo or other provider. WE don't need PSC. Why would we want to continue to be dependent on PSC? Hell's bells, I can't even buy spare parts from PSC nor can they tell me anything about my boat. The Ericson marque is gone my friends. We need to fend for ourselves.

Gene, with all due respect, we don't need you or PSC. I'd fund this site myself if necessary. It just isn't worth being jacked around any more.

If anyone is interested in setting up an alternate group, contact me at nickhandres@earthlink.net

[rvivian]

Other than maintaining good relationships with a group of Ericson boat owners orphaned by PSC's purchase and destruction of Ericson Yachts, the only reason I see for Pacific Seacraft support is because they own the web site , the logo, and the name and those Ericson owners will become a vocal negative "word of mouth advertising" machine for PSC if the site is lost.

If an Ericson Owner's Association could buy back the rights to the site, logo, and name I see little or no benefit for Ericon owners of further association with PSC or benefit to PSC in supporting the Ericson group.

[Tom Prince]

My purchase of an Ericson was in no small part a result of this website. The great job that Sean has done in maintaining and upgrading the site has made it a unique resource for all Ericson owners. We are a large community of people who talk endlessly with other boat owners and spend money on old and new boats. Good will is priceless.


Tom Prince
E27 Holomoku

[CaptDan]

Pacific Seacraft bought EY.c to maintain the sites existence. The seller needed to sell it.

I would appreciate any thoughts about how PSC can make EY.c beneficial to PSC as well as Ericson owners.

Gene

Gene,

Thanks for the invitation to submit ideas. I have little more to add to Sean's, Loren's, and the other contributor's eloquent posts, other than to say this Ericson database is second to none. Virtually nothing like it exists to assist current Ericson owners, as well as those seeking to buy an Ericson.

I moderate a sailing forum at SF Sailing.com, and over the past three years have suggested prospective Ericson owners visit this site for information. After all, the best source of advice IS from the source itself. I can say in numerous cases, this site not only helped answer an array of questions, but was instrumental in leading to successful Ericson purchases.

I realize PSC's primary concern is to support currently manufactured boats - an understandable position for an ongoing company. Yet the quality and stellar reputation of the Ericson name speaks volumes about the marque, which in my opinion, can do no harm to a trusted name like PSC.

I've pledged my support to Sean and this site in hopes in it can continue to flourish, and I appreciate anything you may be able to do to assist in that end as well.

Regards,

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"

[rob m]

Thanks for joining the forum and asking for input on your business decision to discontinue support for the site. Obviously, the easy course of action would be to ignore this group, live with your choice and move on.

Why should you support this group and the Ericson brand in general?

Revenue -- there is a limited area for revenue in supporting older boats. While inventory will be a challenge, it is possible to sell to this audience if they are maintained as a group, and might well not be possible if they are scattered to the winds and not maintained as a community. Other than the obvious parts, there is the possibility to sell knick knacks -- beer steins, coffee mugs, logo-ware, t-shirts, etc. etc. This may balance the cost side of maintaining the site. It may be possible to 'outsource' this. It appears Catalina has done this, for example.

Good will. As a corporation, PSC bought the name and rights to the Ericson line. You also bought this site. To buy something to kill it is generally frowned upon in the consumer community, and if it can be maintained at a low cost it should be simply for the good will in engenders. This also supports my next point below;

Brand equity. You obviously percieved that the Ericson brand had exisiting equity when you bought it. It has equity today (although that is probably diminished) should the Ericson brand maintain some cohesion on the web, the equity will be maintained and there may be future value in serving that community with subsequent models. Should the brand not be supported in a reasonable way, the value will drop quickly. This would severly reduce or eliminate the potential to realize any subsequent value from your aquisition either through your own actions or divestment.

Dealer support. Your existing PSC dealers would probably love to have the Ericson owners included in their mailings, events, rendezvous, etc. Owners of older boats are most likely to buy their next boat, or sell their exisiting boat, via a dealer they know. They can get to know this group via the community you have supported here.

How to support this?

Perhaps a local business school could provide a student or group of students to assist at low or no cost, or as a co-op placement. This could allow you to keep exisiting resources focused on the PSC line and not 'drop' this ball. as the revenue is small in any case, I cannot see a case to commit large resources in time and or money to keeping this site and group alive, but hope you will see a way to do so in the margins of your mainline business.

Thanks for asking, and I do hope you find a reasonable way to maintain this site.

Rob

[ADSHRIV]

Dear Gene,

Piper Aircraft has benefited from the formation and prosperity of the International Commanche Society.....after they elected to discontinue production and support of a very fine aircraft in the mid-1970's. ICS filled the void for customer support, information and ultimately became the recognized authority of technical and operational information. ICS is a world wide organization of dues paying members, publishes a monthly magazine, and have regional meetings all of which enable owner planes to remain operational while providing revenue to service organizations. They have even spawned the creation of a few businesses which produce specialized parts specific to these aircraft.

Piper abandoned this business segment in the mid-1970's.

EY.c appears to have established itself to fulfill the needs of the Ericson/Olsen owner. Of the boating sites with which I'm familiar, EY.c and the Ericson SailNet site have done an outstanding job attempting to satisfy Ericson/Olsen support, operational and technical information. I'd have hoped that the leader of a company Fortune Magazine once recognized as one of the world's finest product manufacturing concerns (Pacific Sea Craft) would have the foresight to take advantage of this opportunity to continue marketing a great product, a name and a reputation especially when the cost is tiny.

Beech Aircraft eagerly embraced a users group: especially when they encountered some serious accidents and litigation. Today, the Beech Bonanza Society is the premiere aircraft owners group (still receiving factory support for out of production equipment) and it is now owned by Raytheon.

Beech had a vision......Piper did not. Beech, and its predecessor have grown and prospered. Piper has/does struggle.

Gene, if you and PSC have no vision: I would like you to give the Ericson/Olsen owners the blessings and help which others before me have articulated to well; that a formal organization might be put into place which will permit current and future owners to receive all the support which they need to ensure their boating experience.

Like Piper, I would like to see PSC provide access to detailed technical/construction information, manuals and other information which this "NEW support organization could use to further its aims and in addition even provide an avenue for dialogue between both organizations for sharing information.

Gene, what is your vision?

I'd be happy to discuss the Piper/ICS experience with you since I was an early President of ICS and was the Piper/ICS interface for several years.

I have been actively looking at 30-32 foot Ericson's for the past year. I think I am getting closer.

Thanks for listening, and thinking.

Arthur D. Shriver

814-742-7357

[rob m]

you are standing at a boat show, talking to a prospective buyer for a PSC 40 ($250K, give or take) he asks you, "what about support?"

you answer 'a' or 'b':

a) there is a limited one year manufacturers warranty, we stand behind everything we sell.

b) there is a limited one year manufacturers warranty, and as you would expect, we stand behind everything we sell. But we go further -- we took over Ericson in 199X, and the last Ericson rolled off the production line in 199X, but they and we had been building yachts under that name since the 1960's. Even today we maintain a site for owners to exchange information and track down parts -- from us, from other suppliers, even from each other. they also exchange information with each other, can access many documents and manuals online and attend our rendezvous with our dealers. We take our family of owners very seriously.

is 'b' better than 'a'? what's it worth to be able to say that?

[Stuart]

Gene, I hope you have the time to read this, I am sure we all look forward to mutual support.

Last year when I organized the Ericson Rendezvous, PSC gave us some prizes, ball caps, decals and Ericson stuff, it was murder to contact them, I finally gave up with unanswered email and phoned, once I made contact it was great, they were friendly, supportive and helpful.

I feel the EY.c site benefits PSC in many ways, some immeasurable. It does create a lot of good will between Ericson owners and PSC. I drool over their most beautiful boats on line when I visit to look up Ericson specs or brochures on the PSC site.
The EY.c site and continued Ericson support’s value to PSC will be dependent on how they use it, us, and how they treat us. If all the Ericson owners support PSC, that is a lot of goodwill, cheap! Valuable if you chose answer "b" on the last post.
PSC’s web knowledge shows up with their own site, I looked for dealers in my area, using their dealer search, I got nothing, just a blank response. I then emailed a question on cost about a 31, 34 and 37; I have still not got a response. They maybe closed for holiday but one would think at least an automated answer or something. Maybe it was an oversite or maybe it’s a bigger thing. In todays world, not getting a promt response makes one wonder, whats going on with them? Anybody home? Anybody care?
It would be nice if an agreement could be made with Sean to maintain the EY.c site, if Sean is willing, a cost many of us would contribute to. They might even ask him to look at their own site.

The question I keep asking myself is why does PSC buy all things Ericson and then do nothing? Maybe Gene could shed some light on this.
It would be nice to see a new Ericson 33 introduced to take some of the market away from the Hunterbenilinias. With the great name Ericson has, I am sure it would be a success, assuming the design was modern and not just re introducing an old boat with no new technology. I don’t think it would be hard to come up with some new design, stronger than current production boats but a costal sailor, not a blue water boat like the PSC. All of us happy Ericson owners would gladly give our input.

I might even consider becoming a dealer in BC, as we all know; PSC and Ericson……RULE THE OCEANS!

My. .02
Stuart MacKenzie
E-31 Independence
Vancouver BC
stuartm@pureresults.com

[bigtyme805]

Nick I would definitely be with you on your idea, excellent idea. Also, Rob posed a very interesting question to Gene. I am sure we all know the answer to this (a)!

PSC must be in terrible financial trouble, because it does not cost very much to maintain this site and having this site supported by them would help their sales.

Gene can we get an honest answer on why PSC would not want to continue with the financial support of the EY website?

Don Anderson
E-27
Channel Islands/Santa Barbara

[scourge]

Gene and all.
I too express many of the same sentiments that are reflected in the many posts. I love my Ericson and was disappointed when PSC decided to stop making the boats. I have many times longingly looked at PSC sailboats, and someday I may buy one. However, that longing would definately be tempered by the apparent lack of support of a website such as this. Right now, I am not in the market for a new boat, but as I said, PSC ranks up there as one of the narrow 'first choice' boats. A place to discuss problems, support one another and generally 'talk up' the Ericson line to potential buyers is a win/win situation for all. Potential buyers, knowing that they are not 'bastard children' and there is some level of support from a parent company will be more comfortable in their decision making process.
This is beneficial for both of us, PSC and the Ericson community.

Len Buchanan
WindShadow E 32

[Cary Diehl]

Gene,

I've been with this website since the begining... I also had my own website before this one called "ericson library". I have been helping people out with their questions for a long time now just about general information and repair information. I do this while going to college full time for a Mech. Engineering degree (with the hope of one day design/engineering new ericsons :egrin: ), 30 hours a week of work, and everything else college students do. Why? Because, that is what Ericson owners do... they help one another out and promote the sale of built boats to keep the brand from becoming forgotten.

So like everyone else with vested intrest in it, I don't want to see it go down. Is PS the one who should maintain it? It is your call... I really do not care as I realize you probably won't make another Ericson Sailboat... and if you do it won't be the ericsons that filled the market segment we bought from...

So if I was PS, what would I do? Well... I'd offer the URL, websites... basicly everything that is up and running, to a group of people who are willing to start a non-profit national class association who use dues and sale of merchandise to support the class website and maybe even rendevous, races, and the cost of making tooling for replacement parts someday (like those window gaskets a bunch of people got together to buy.) I'd be really friendly and make sure the transition goes smoothly.

Why this option? Well... it has initial costs of time and little money, looks like good PR as you are helping the class start off, and at the end of the day it isn't your worry of what happens.

If you let the site die, the owners will find another website and have to start from scratch. Most likely, I'll work to get the library updated and running again with help from other owners this time to make it a great site. I'll probably contact you and ask if we can use the logo.

If you maintain the site, thats cool too and will cost you a few hundred bucks a year... but would be great PR at every boat show you go to. Just make sure to stick with it if you decide to maintain the website yourselves.


Thanks,

Cary

[Sean Engle]

With the closing of this issue, I am locking off this thread from further posts. If anyone has an issue with it, please email me.

//sse