EY.c Future: Would you pay for a site like EY.c?

[Sean Engle]

Here's another good question:


If EY.c were a fee-based site - and you had to pay some small amount annually, how much would you be willing to pay? This assumes that the site's expenses would be fully covered.

From the time I created this site to the period when I turned it over to PSC, I paid for everything this site needed: webspace, software, everything. Now I've returned to graduate school, and can no longer afford to pick up that cost.

So, in this thread, please discuss the following questions. Don't worry about using specific numbers (as if we're looking for a hard number at this point) - what I'm interested in is what you feel is reasonable:


What kind of fee, or how much do you feel is reasonable for such a service?
What kind of information would you expect to find for that amount of money?
What about former owners - or those with hardship cases being exempt from the fees or having discounted fees (in order to promote discussion among those who would have something to share, but have a hard time paying for it)?


//sse

[rvivian]

Hi -

Are we talking about a fee-based cooperative site to cover expenses:

1. Purchase of site from Owner
2. WWW Hosting fees
3. Remuneration for Maintenance and Moderating (Sean, Loren, etc.)
4. Other reasonable expenses

Or are we talking about a full-blown commercial endeavor owned and operated by someone?

The following table calculates the yearly revenue at three "membership" levels
and fees ranging from $5 to $50 yearly.

Projected Total Funding
Current Members 1163
$5/yr yields $5,815
$25/yr yields $29,075
$50/yr yields $58,150

If 1000 paying Members
$5/yr yields $5,000
$25/yr yields $25,000
$50/yr yields $50,000

If 500 paying Members
$5/year yields $2,500
$25/yr yields $12,500
$50/yr yields $25,000

Plus advertising??

How much is needed to make this work?

Nothing wrong with a profit making venture, I'd just like to know the basic premis for the site at the start.

In either case I vote for $20 to $25 per year as a reasonable fee.
(and please no requirement to accept a T-shirt in return for the contribution.)

[Sean Engle]

No, no - nothing commerical. The question just seeks to find out the level of interest - not really the level of price to cost. Fees would cover the hosting, software, and registration costs, etc. Costs for moderation/administration are assumed zero unless something changed.

The main interest in the site is participation - not profit.

In reality - if all 1160 current members paid for the site annually, then yes, it would be very cheap - like less than $5.00. But the 1160 is probably not an accurate number of users - people who, faced with a bill, would actually choose to use the site. I have to get into the system and check the current loadings of the site - but the daily numbers are much smaller - in hundreds.

Given that, I would assume that the total cost of 'membership' would stay in the very low range - like $10-$15 a year. If the site took off, however - and the membership decided they wanted things like a newsletter, a burgee, etc, then that cost would be adjusted. But for just the site itself, I would think it would be very inexpensive.

//sse

[bhowell123]

I have found this site VERY useful, both in conducting due diligence research before I bought my 1977 E 27 "Carolyn" and since she has become part of the family. Frankly my preference would be to keep it "non-commercial," just owners, previous owners, and others with a personal interest in sailing and Ericson yachts. (Although if Don Moyer of Moyer Marine wanted to have a spot on the site I would consider that a commuity service to every Atomic 4 owner out there!) I would have no problem paying $25.00 or so to keep the site just as it is. I also would have no problem with having a reduced or waived fee for those who either cannot afford to join (altho I really find that unlikely) or for previous owners, to encourage their participation and sharing of knowledge.

Of course more is sometimes, but not always, better. A newsletter might be nice, or a burgee, or a decal. There could be levels of "membership," pay more, get a decal, etc., but that can be cumbersome to manage. Those type items might be offered "a la carte" as a fund raising effort to help defray costs of maintaining the site, and for adding content, etc.

It appears that this site is largely a labor of love on Sean's part, so my guess is his time is "free." Taking that into consideration, and with grad school in the offing (good luck, Sean) keeping it as simple as possible is the way to go, in my view. But keeping it going is a must! Let me know how I can help.

[bigtyme805]

I believe a fee is in order. Sean can no longer foot the bill and he should not have to. We all use the site for some reason or another. Although, I find a lot boaters to be frugal and may think any $ is too much. Whatever you come up Sean you have an Ericson owner that would be willing to contribute.
In my opinion you do a wonderful job, remember the hacker? Sean had the site running in a few days.
Sean, put some numbers together and post it. Just let us know where to submit payment. Another idea might be in order, having Ericson merchandise for sale on the site. Hats, T-shirts, sweatshirts, flags, etc,... All the funds would go to
the maintenance of the site and whatever is left over goes to Sean for maintaining the site. By far this site is far superior to any one I have seen. More info than you know what to do with.

Best of Luck in whatever you decide

Don Anderson
E-27 Owner

[rssailor]

Sean has made this site happen from day one. All of us that wanna continue with using this site hopefully will weigh in here with support for whatever needs to happen for all of "us" to continue to use the site. If it takes paying some kind of fee, then it is worth it for all the great info that we get off the site.
The current format is great, maybe get some people to contribute more boat projects and pics for them, then Sean could post them on the site for all to view.

Sean let everyone know what kind of idea you have to keep the site going and I know the majority will support you. Good job and lets keep the site going.

Ryan Ericson 25+ Moonglow

[Steve Swann]

Sean & Ericson Owners,

Certainly a few dollars a year is appropriate to continue the site for a couple of good reasons. I personally do not believe that if you own a sailboat that you can also qualify as a hardship case. I think everyone should cough up what is needed. After all, if you even know about this site and this discussion, you are a de facto recipient of the value this site offers. A future two-tiered site having a Members Only section is something many sites have and it seems to work for them.

This site offers invaluable information for this class of aging boats. There is no other collective place we can go for Ericson resources. (From my personal experience, don't hold your breath waiting for anything from Pacific Seacraft!) The necessity of sharing information and resources for these boats will become more important as time goes on; another argument for Ericson owners to be stepping up to save this site.

I would be somewhat reticent to the idea of manufacturers using this site to promote their wares, but I would be open to them having their own forum post for Ericson-specific supplies. And, there is the possibility of more instructional and informational articles / discussions to appear. For instance, I would like to see some postings about how to do some specific repairs and rejuvenating projects, resource sites to purchase replacement gear, and more complete specifications about some of the hardware and systems these boats have.

In summary, to have a great site, we need to put forth the effort to make it this way, continually refresh and add to the information, and make it interesting and relevant to the preservation of these boats. To do this, it won't be free and it will take some effort and dedication by some to ensure this. Let's start by ensuring that costs are covered and see what's left in the kitty for improvements to the site.

Steve Swann
Boise, ID

PS Sean, do "we" get to keep this site or has it been signed over or purchased by Pacific Seacraft and we need to start anew?

[Mike.Gritten]

Sean,
I would certainly be up to paying something for access to this site. However, I wouldn't want to "commercialize" it to a large degree. As users, we contribute, what, in my opinion is the real value in this site - our experiences. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from participating because the "cost" was too high.
Just my 2 cents worth (that's CDN money though, so it's only about 1.6 cents U.S.) :egrin:

[ccorcoran]

Let's face it, our boats haven't been made since the mid '90s (a very few in the '90s). Where else can you find out how to rebuild your head in a 1985 E35? How about redoing a teak and holly sole; fitting an adjustable backstay on an '87 E34? All this information geared specifically to your year, size and condition of Ericson?

Face it, Sean was brilliant in conceiving, developing and maintaining this website. It's is among the better websites out there (and I've built a few myself for Ford, Yokohama and several of the largest Fed Credit Unions in the country). He's done what he's done for no gain. It's time for us to step up and help out; surely all of us can afford a few pennies a day (about $.055 per day is $20/yr) to keep this information treasure and its fabulous forums alive and growing.

I, for one, would suggest that we earmark something for Sean to continue this work; he perfomed miracles when the site was attacked and he had it back up -- completely intact and working -- in a matter of days. We owe him something, even a modest monthly stipend for keeping things in order. You may not realize that it takes more than the press of a few button to keep a website working and Sean's time (now that he's an unemplyed student) has to be worth something.

This website is the only website I consistently visit and use. I will gladly pay $20 to $25 per year just to know that it's still there!

BTW, there were several good ideas already posted here re. logo wear, etc. I think it's all doable; I do have reservations, however, about going commercial -- look what happened when PSC lost interest. This forum belongs to all of us (legal issues aside) and we need to ensure its continuance.

Sean, count me in for the long haul.

[PkandLisa]

I've responded to the poll, and like many others, would be glad to pay for the value I've gotten from this site. But I would like to attach something to the fee - specifically, some merchandise that helps identify ourselves when we're out on the water - hopefully expanding the membership. So I vote $25+ a year for membership which would hopefully allow some room for the Ericson item of the year - could be an Ericson burgee (just got one and it looks great!) :egrin: a boat sticker of the logo...a hat...t-shirt...viking helmet...etc. But one item each year and tagged to the bottom would be www.ericsonyachts.com - noticable to those intrigued by the merchandise (i.e. other owners).

Parker

[gareth harris]

It sounds like we do not need to find sponsorship based on the money flowing in, and I would hate for the site to be taken over in that way, where Sean might have to bail them out any time.

The simplest way to raise money would be a registration fee. Anyone would be able to read the site, but to post you would have to be a member. That would keep the fee low as it would be spread over a large number of people, but would have the disadvantage of discouraging occasional users, such as forcing those thinking of buying an Ericson to pay up front for information. Maybe new users could get a few months free at the beginning.

The second alternative would be another tier of membership which would have additional benefits, be called an association, and those people would cover the web fees. I am having a hard time thinking of anything that membership would provide that is not already on the site - people already hold regional meetings; sunhats etc. are already available from Morgan. Maybe enough people would sign up their dollars to be part of the name only, knowing their money would be going to a good cause.

A friend of mine from Minneapolis once bought me some plastic but good looking viking hats from a sports team there (I am not sure which one), maybe someone up there could find them and market them for web site revenue? Perhaps people would pay to download the Ericson logo to use in their hatch covers etc? Morgan, if you are reading this, would you pay a stipend to the site if you had a page advertising your merchandise? These are ideas that might raise some funds, but I still think some kind of membership fee would be required.

I really like the round table format of the discussions in the informal setting we have here. With the membership we have, it works. Those who become the cornerstones of their local areas or type/model, and take others sailing when they can (Glyn springs to mind), or contribute to the site regularly (Seth, Loren et al.) deserve some recognition, and a rank structure within the association could do that; I would be willing to refer to Sean as The Lief Ericson himself. But it should be kept simple, being in the navy I see every day how good ideas are lost in excessive hierarchy, and I have seen it in some yacht clubs too.

Whatever people come up with, I will chime in my share (as soon as my insurance money arrives).

Gareth

Freyja E35 #241 1972

[rvivian]

Hi again -

I am not in favor of tiered memberships, that is too complicated!

In order to gain new membership and provide information to new or "just Ericson interested" people, I think simple browsing of most of the web site needs to be free.

Some parts of the site, like: the ability to post, the ability to search, the ability to list items for sale (as opposed to buying), and perhaps the ability to participate in "cargo shifting", should be restricted to registered members that are supporting the site by paying the fees. Some sites let registered members sign on and then get a list of messages since they last visited. That saves a lot of time. Visitors that have not registered and paid the fee need to wade through everything each time.

If a national Ericson Yacht Association is formed maybe being a registered member of the web site could be part of the benefit package with fees paid by the annual dues.

[ED CHADROFF]

I think a national or international register would be a great thing for all those interested in Ericson Yachts. Shared information is what will ultimately keep these great boats sailing. Having had many years experience with M G automobile clubs, it has been my experience that a very few people will do the vast majority of the work. That is o k as long as there is a broad base of financial support. Annual fees in the 20-30 dollar range should not scare anyone away. This is a cheap price to pay for valuable information and a chance to make some life-long friends. Let's make it happen. Ed.

[chrism]

I am for a membership system.

I have been speaking with Sean via email about hosting the site for free, and I hope that we might be able to work it out.

The whole idea of getting a free item every year doesn't really make sense. The befenit of membership is acess to this BBS, the other articles on the site, the manuals, etc. Giving away a free item every year to members would cut down on the amount of money that can be used for keeping the site updated. I also think that, if formed, the asociation should give a little something to Sean for all his work.

Chris

[footrope]

I'd like to see the site preserved and go forward. It's been a great resource for me and I've enjoyed the interaction I see here. Excellent moderators and considerate, knowledgable contributors. And it's obvious everyone who comes around regularly really cares about sailing and Ericsons. I'm going to keep mine a long time.

I prefer non-commercial, and certainly would be willing to pay. Thank you Sean, for starting this and keeping it going.

[Luffin it]

I just want to thank Loren of Portland and Sean of Tacoma for all the help they've given me with my boat. I feel I have a worldwide knowledge base which most boat owners would be glad to pay for. Giving up a couple of Mocha's at Starbucks wouldn't bother me sense I've never gotten any sailing info while sitting there. I can't imagine anyone who has used this site not willing to pay a little something for it. Thank you all for your help and insight in to the wonderful world of Ericson Sailing. :egrin: Tom Miskell. Luffin 'it'. Ericson 27 hull #1287.

[escapade]

I too feel a fee is not out of the question. It would probably work best just to have one level fee across the board. Sales of items could be used to help defray costs and would be a service to the members if there was an item they wanted. The prices mentioned are not out of line considering the quality (?) of the information available. Allowing commercial advertising is questionable as it opens up the problem of "pop-up adds", etc. which can be a real pain in the you know where. I do believe it should be open to everyone to view for free, but members only to post questions or comments. That way new potential members can see the value of the information available and it would encourage them to join.
As in all organizations, it will probably end up being 5% of the members doing 95% of the work, but oh well that's life! Sean has done an incredible job putting this thing together and keeping it running over the years. We can never thank him enough for his time & efforts! Thanks again Sean for a great job!
Well, now you have my $.02 worth. Count me in.
Bud
'88 E34 "Escapade"

[jnevins]

Not to sound too humbug about the issue but I see no reason that the information contained in this site should become fee based. Every bit of the valuable information is contributed by the members. The knowledge is shared freely because we care about our boats and are interested in fostering community. A website such as this does not have to cost any money to host. One need only take a look at the Yahoo discussion boards as well as newsnet discussion lists and their rich archives The Ericson list on sailnet already functions quite well... ( http://list.sailnet.net/read/?forum=ericson ). All of the archived information can be hosted for free at www.doteasy.com. At that unix based hosing service, there are no ads associated with any custom site posted to their server at all. Domain registration costs are very cheap these days (under $5/year).

If this site is being threatened with closure due to money issues I will gladly take over all responsibility for moving it in its entirety to doteasy servers and will maintain it gratis.

Jerry Nevins
Solstice
1972 E-32-2
Noank, CT

[bigtyme805]

It sounds like Jerry came up with a very viable solution to our dilemna. Plus he would be willing to help with the transition. That is great! I had some earlier thoughts but Jerry came up with some hard facts. I will be curious to see what the opinion is of everybody involved in this.
Sean what do you think? You were the creator/founder of this site, I am sure you have thoughts. Maybe cost does not have to be a factor in the decision to be fee based, there might be other factors.

Don Anderson
E-27
Channel Islands, CA

[chrism]

I have also offered to help my hosting on my server, and I have offered to help maintain the site. I think that is the best solution... a non Tripod/Geocities free hosting set up.

Chris

[Sean Engle]

Not to sound too humbug about the issue but I see no reason that the information contained in this site should become fee based. Every bit of the valuable information is contributed by the members. The knowledge is shared freely because we care about our boats and are interested in fostering community. A website such as this does not have to cost any money to host. One need only take a look at the Yahoo discussion boards as well as newsnet discussion lists and their rich archives The Ericson list on sailnet already functions quite well... ( http://list.sailnet.net/read/?forum=ericson ). All of the archived information can be hosted for free at www.doteasy.com. At that unix based hosing service, there are no ads associated with any custom site posted to their server at all. Domain registration costs are very cheap these days (under $5/year).

If this site is being threatened with closure due to money issues I will gladly take over all responsibility for moving it in its entirety to doteasy servers and will maintain it gratis.

Jerry Nevins
Solstice
1972 E-32-2
Noank, CT

What do I think? Well - I was going to write a long response - but I've gotten the crud over the holidays and feel really horrible; so this will be more brief and to the point (and this is less toward you and more toward the general discussion - although I would like to touch on a couple of points in your post):

1.) Ericsons are no longer produced - and the remaining line of yachts is aging. This means that if the line is to stay 'of interest' to the boat-buying crowd, they have to be maintained and improved as we go forward. This requires communication and community on the owners part.

The lack of production also means lack of on-going profit for the manufacturer - and thus lack of interest in supporting the owners. Sailnet (as nice as they are) and PSC care only about the Ericson family only to the extent that they can make a profit from them. Once that opportunity is removed or diminished, they bail (current situation).

2.) The Ericson family needs stable, permanent place to call home (aka - community) - where all their discussions and documents can mass; where new prospective owners can do real research on the line of boats and the issues facing them; where existing owners can trade information and add to the knowledgebase; and where former owners can pass the reins of control (of the site) off to newer, younger, upcoming owners who share the same interest. It does not have to cost a fortune ($15 bucks a year, probably)

3.) A mail list does not a site make. Try doing extensive searching on Sailnet, looking for specific issues on specific boats - then do the same thing on EY.c - you'll see what I mean. One is a genuine discussion-thread format, backed up on MySQL - the other is a list serve with indexed messages (apples-oranges). Not only this, but EY.c offers many other features to the users (Owners Registry, Projects, Links, Reference Documents, etc).

4.) You get what you pay for - nothing is free. For four years I carried EY.c on my own checking account, managed it myself, etc. Sailnet offers a share of an email list server because they think you'll buy your next winch handle from them. Software has to be upgraded - someone has to backup and maintain the site. The work can be done by people who are knowledgeable - but the cost of the hosting, software and registration has to be paid for.

5.) Abandon the misperception that you can run a site like EY.c on a Geocities-like offering. The EY.c site runs on three MySQL databases, has eight php applications, various monitoring capacities, etc. Its bandwidth is manageable (approx 300-500mb a day - almost 600mb of disk space. It is (despite some of my poorer artistic skills - and no major facelifts since 2000) not a personal website - you cannot run it like one. The host has to be secure - reliable - established. Those who maintain it have to have a decent idea of what they're doing - from writing the pages, to fixing the bugs in php, to building and maintaining the databases, to replying politely to users who have no idea what a 'login' is. :confused:

6.) This is a decision that only a dedicated group of owners can make - and a long term effort that has to be supported by a reasonable percentage of the Ericson ownership. EY.c gained popularity over time - and amassed its knowledgebase over time - because of the work I and a few other people put into it.

A permanent solution to this situation can be created - but it will require the dedication of a small group of Ericson supporters, and the support of a reasonable percentage of the owners (I would say at least 250-300). Again, it does not have to cost a fortune - there is lots of support for an inexpensive paid site - but, like everything else in life, if you put little out, you get little back in return.

What do you think? :egrin:

//sse

[rssailor]

Sean,
There appear to be a majority of folks here that will support a paid member website. Why not make a proposal to us (members of EY.c) and lets move forward to keep the site up and running. What kind of dollars will it take to keep this site going in its current format and allow for future improvement? What is the deal with PSC anyway? Do they now own the site and the name has to change, or are they abandoning the site to you?
As I have said before, I wanna see this site continue and am willing to pay to do this. Keep up the awesome work and get better soon. Ryan

[JORGE]

Sean,

You are doing a great job in the upkeep of the website. The fee idea sounds valid as long as there is a need . It is as good to anyone that would pay a sum for a magazine subscription. A nominal amount for membership rights sounds fine,could vary annually by the number of members, and the cost of operations, just like a non-profit Yacht club.
In addition, I believe that an owners asociation is a great idea, if started it should be registered as a non-profit operation, later on..the logo/identity stuff. If a non-profit org is setup it willl probably need a committee of members, with two or more assigned people for each association task (backups). The sales of E logo material and perhaps a buyer's group (cooperative) would allow "members" discounts of sailing equipment. Bringing in more members. Voted on, or Volunteer chair people for the owners association?

A separate page for boating related advertisers seems like a good idea, a small fee could be charged for a spot on the website, vared, of course by size of ad(within limitations)

What are the itemized expenses so far?in the future?
How would payments be managed?


If PSC refuses to pay for the site, then what do we need PSC for? Maybe they would like to advertise, on an ad page?

What do other owner associations do, how do they operate?

[Sean Engle]

Sean,

You are doing a great job in the upkeep of the website. The fee idea sounds valid as long as there is a need . It is as good to anyone that would pay a sum for a magazine subscription. A nominal amount for membership rights sounds fine,could vary annually by the number of members, and the cost of operations, just like a non-profit Yacht club.
In addition, I believe that an owners asociation is a great idea, if started it should be registered as a non-profit operation, later on..the logo/identity stuff. If a non-profit org is setup it willl probably need a committee of members, with two or more assigned people for each association task (backups). The sales of E logo material and perhaps a buyer's group (cooperative) would allow "members" discounts of sailing equipment. Bringing in more members. Voted on, or Volunteer chair people for the owners association?

A separate page for boating related advertisers seems like a good idea, a small fee could be charged for a spot on the website, vared, of course by size of ad(within limitations)

What are the itemized expenses so far?in the future?
How would payments be managed?


If PSC refuses to pay for the site, then what do we need PSC for? Maybe they would like to advertise, on an ad page?

What do other owner associations do, how do they operate?

Yes - I agree with many of your points above:

- Site ownership/Control: What I would suggest is a volunteer 'steering committee' made up of an odd number (like 5 or 7) of the most active of EY.c members - and hopefully people who are either very savvy computer users, or who are in the industry (software people, engineers, etc). This committee would make the long range decisions, collect monies, pay the bills, etc. They would operate from a common agreement which would stipulate how they are elected - how power transfers to new committee members, what the mission of the organization is, etc.

The software this board runs on provides paid subscription service as well as 'private' forums for management groups - so the infrastructure is there already.

Beneath the steering committee would be a technical advisory group which would actually oversee the website operations, upgrades, new pages, etc. The organization itself would not need to be a 'formal' group - but members would need to agree to the terms of a Memorandum of Understanding - which would spell all these issues out clearly.

- Monies could come from three possible sources: The members could pay some nominal fee for posting rights on the board, e-news letter, etc. There are several 'angel' members who have volunteered to pay more than the others to carry the organization (like $100 a year); they most likely would be on the steering committee. A third source are vendors who wish to have their products/services submitted to the membership - and would either pay or cover some of the cost (for instance - perhaps we could get the hosting company to agree to provide free or discounted hosting in exchange for an advert on the site promoting their company).

- Legal issues surrounding the logo would have to be taken up separately. PSC purchased the site from me in 2003 - and they are the legal holders of the Ericson logo. I would hope some arrangement could be struck with them regarding its use (perhaps in exchange for an advert/link, etc).

Regardless - the time has come for the Ericson owners to step up and own/manage their own affairs. You asked for an example? Try looking at the California Cape Dory Owner's Association (http://www.toolworks.com/capedory/index.html) (another group of excellent boats that are no longer produced); they were the group I modeled EY.c after...

//sse

[tomr]

The value of the Ericson site to us Ericson owners goes way beyond anything any commercial endeavor would be willing to provide for any length of time for any reasonable fee. PSC has demonstrated that. This site is for us and will need to be by us if it is to continue providing its value.

[Sean Engle]

Just as an FYI… Gene Kohlmann (President of PSC) has just replied to all the traffic on EY.c, in a post entitled “Why Should PSC Support EY.c?”.

Please post your reply to his message now, and let him know that there are many Ericson Owners concerned about this issue. Click here to open that thread directly:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1726

Thanks for your continued support!

//sse