Water Heater Hell!

[Sean Engle]

Ok - I would like to hear from everyone on this subject. I know that I've discussed it some on the Ericson Mail List - but I think I'm going to document it, and turn it into a project for this site - so if you please....

My Raritan water heater is shot - has to be replaced - and only hisses when I try to pressurize the system. Problem is, the hatch this heater will come through is only 12" wide - and the heater is about 13.5" or 14" wide. What fun! :rolleyes:

I've heard some stories about people getting their's out of their boat...... Would anyone like to share their personal hell with us before I go through mine (in August)?

Thanks!
//sse

[Ray Rhode]

Sean,

Don't know if you missed it but an earlier discussion on the list mentioned removing the outer shell and the insulation. This reduced the diameter enough to get it out through the starboard locker. I seem to recall that the same post mentioned using the reverse proceedure for getting the new heater in. Disassembly during removal will give you a good idea of how to get the new unit in. What are you going to replace it with? I really like the look of the Iostherm units. They keep the water hot longer even longer if you get the one with the heat holding insert. Don't particularly like the price but it might be better than running the engine every time you need hot water.

[Sean Engle]

That's what I'm using to replace my Raritan!

It's about $500 for a 6 gallon model, but it will have the electric heating element for when I'm at the dock - and the insulation is easy to remove. The mounts are also very simple to install (the thing looks like a bomb on it's side!).

Go to http://www.isotherm.com for more info - or to their American distributors: http://www.great-water.com/

I saw the bit about tearing apart the old one.... I was just wondering if anyone else had interesting/hellish stories about changing out their water heaters.......

//sse

[Sean Engle]

Well - I took out my old Raritan this weekend - and took the opportunity to also take out the muffler, change an exhaust hose, and take apart and repaint everything (Interlux's Bilgekoat again!) aft of the engine!

After four days of work, I'm happy to say that I'm just about done. I just have to hookup the lines to the engine, and the electrical connection and I'm done. The new Isotherm went in with no problem at all - and I'm really glad it bought it.

By the way - have you ever removed those little shelves that the heater and muffler sit on? I pulled mine out to paint them - and found that there is a bulge in the hull below that which supports the water heater! :confused:

The bulge is significant enough that it creates a little lake behind it..... I should probably have waited to ask Martin King what it was for - but I got some long glass filler instead and turned the lake into a river valley (I was on a schedule, so...). No matter - the water flows right through now...

Now this means I can start working on the teak headliner for the head - which means I have to consider putting in that vent hatch I've been looking at......sometime in the next couple of months....;)

//sse

[cruis-n]

Sean -
What size unit did you install? I'm looking at the 6 gallon size. There are two varieties, Slim and Basic. http://www.indelmarineusa.com/basicwater.htm I'm leaning toward the Basic unit which is shorter but it is also larger diameter. The Slim model is quite a bit longer but clearly will fit through the locker cover. I'm concerned about the Basic model fitting through the locker. I'm replacing a Seaward 6 gallon model that does not retain the heat as well as I'd like.

Thanks,
Paul

[Sean Engle]

The basic 6 gallon. Excellent unit - very easy to put in and pull out. Make sure you use both 12 and 120 connectors so you can pull the unit out if you ever need to (the mounts strap it down - so it's a breeze to pull out).

You'll be really happy with that unit - trust me. It holds hot water a long, long, long time.

//sse

[Tom Plummer]

:confused: WARNING possible trouble with the ISOTEMP!!!!


I also installed an Isotemp 6 gal and it works wonderful the water stays hot a lot longer than it did with the OEM unit. But,! Is see a problem with the new design, it does not appear that the insulation is split in half anymore.

[cruis-n]

I had noticed that the current models do not look like the photos that Sean had posted. In looking around I found that the Volvo Penta QL water heaters look very similar to the older Isotherm/Isotemp units.

http://www.great-water.com/pages/product_pages/ql_waterheater.htm

Anyone have experience with them good or bad? Performance seems to be acceptable and the shell can be removed for installation through the narrow locker on my E35-3.

Sean - I'm puzzled, what did you mean when referring to "Make sure you use both 12 and 120 connectors..."? 12V and 120V or something else? I looked through the installation manual and could not find any references to 12 and 120.

Paul

[Sean Engle]

What I meant was to be sure that you have both connections set up with connectors (instead of hard wiring it) so you can remove the unit if you need to.

I'm not sure what the current status is of the insulation - but I cannot imagine that they changed it. From this link (http://www.great-water.com/pages/isotemp.htm) it appears that the six gallon model is still the same configuration....

//sse

[rssailor]

Sean,
When ya installed your water heater, did you have to seal the barbs for cold and hot water with 5200? The darn threads are BSP (british pipe thread). The US rep. told me after not being able to stop the leaking at the threads that even with the adapters, the best way to seal the threads with 5200. What a pain. Have installed an Atlantic marine unit since then, and what a great water heater. Ryan

[cruis-n]

Thanks everyone for the information. I've decided to install the Volvo Penta QL water heater from Great Water (http://www.great-water.com/pages/product_pages/ql_waterheater.htm). It's basically the same unit that Sean installed. The water heater that Sean installed in no longer available, they were discontinued starting sometime in 2000. According the the Great Water, they have switched to a stainless shell over a stainless tank and then inject foam between the two. This prevents removing the outer shell to get it in the locker without surgery. The Great Water folks speculated that the Isotemp unit Sean installed and the Volvo Penta units were made in the same factory but who knows.

I talked to the rep about the BSP threads and they said the same thing Ryan said. They do supply BSP-NPT adapters and recommeded the use of pipe dope on the threaded connections. All in all, wery nice people to deal with. I'll let you know how it turns out.

:confused: BTW, the link in the Great Water web site (Tech Support) shows both the older (called Regular) and current (called Basic and Slim) Isotemp products http://www.great-water.com/pages/isotemp.htm so it was a bit confusing sorting out why I could not find pricing for the orange Isotemp units. Defender (and others) carries only the current (Basic & Slim) units not the orange 'Regular' units. FYI.

Paul

[Sean Engle]

Sean,
When ya installed your water heater, did you have to seal the barbs for cold and hot water with 5200? The darn threads are BSP (british pipe thread). The US rep. told me after not being able to stop the leaking at the threads that even with the adapters, the best way to seal the threads with 5200. What a pain. Have installed an Atlantic marine unit since then, and what a great water heater. Ryan

No - no 5200 on the barbs. I just used good 316 (?) grade SS hose clamps, standard plumbers tape (no kidding) and new hose - no leaks. The heater does (or did, rather) have a pressure bleed valve on it, however that always dripped a little when the system first heated up. Isotemp said that was normal - so I made an allowance for it (routed a hose into the bilge for it).

//sse

[cruis-n]

As promised, I'm reporting back on the QL water heater install.

Everything went like clockwork. I prepared a piece of plywood to fit on top of the existing water heater mount. Coated it with two coats of epoxy. I drilled and counter sunk four carriage bolts to fit the mounting feet on the water heater. Once that was done, I screwed down the new board on top of the old one with 6 ss wood screws. Once that was done it was a matter of taking the QL water heater apart, taking off the foam and sliding the tank through the lazerette opening. No cutting required! :) Once the water heater was reassembled, it was boled down using the four carriage bolts and secured with large washers and nuts.

The messiest part of the project was connecting the heat exchanger. We used two pair of vice grips to pinch the hose (gently) and and pair of forceps on the overflow tube on the coolent reservoir. This provided an air-lock so that the entire coolent reservoir would not drain out whrn the hoses were split. It worked pretty well but we still got some coolent leaking during the hookup.

Finally, it came to hooking up the hot and cold water fittings. The local home improvement store had the proper 3/8" fittings and I had some of the Quest tubing left over from another project so that part was a snap. We decided to add a shutoff to the cold water supply while we were at it.

The electrical hookup was easy. We cut off the plug and installed ring terminals. This was hoolked up to the terminal strip then covered with the clear plastic protective cover I fabricated from a piece of plexiglass using a heat gun to soften it.

After the install was complete, we started the engine (taking care to remove the vice grips and forceps. As the engine got up to temp, I had to 'burp' the engine. This involved carefully opening the petcock on the top of the thermostat housing to get out the accumulated air. This took about 1/2 hour to let ithe engine idle, burp it, wait a bit, burp it again till no moe air bubbles came out. We topped off the coolent tank the we went out motoring. The engine ran fine, never getting above 160 degrees which is normal for our M25 with the larger heat exchanger.

Thanks to everyone for the information. Would I do it again? Not if I didn't have to but as projects go, this one was not bad (way better than replacing the holding tank). The folks at Great Water were great (pardon the pun) to work with. They pre-installed the thermostatic mixing valve and supplied couplers so all I had to do was supply the hose barbs fittings for the heat exchanger and the hot and cold Quest fittings. I'd highly recommend them.

Paul

[tramp]

Hello, I am a new member to the forum. I have an 1990 E34. My water heater replacement story from hell is not too bad. Just that laying in the sail locker in the summer heat was tough. I had to disconnect the holding tank hoses to get the job done (after putting it off trying to work around the hoses for an hour). Now I still have a problem, the over temp pressure valve pops when I run the engine and the water is too hot. This runs into the bilge and I do want a dry bilge. I thought of replacing the valve but just thinking of pulling the heater again makes me go for the scotch bottle. Any suggestions?
Tramp

[Tom Plummer]

Basic trouble shooting procedure is to fiars cut the problem in half. Is it the water heater or is it an over hated engine. The first thing I would check is the temp of the water in the tank when the relief valve lifts. That will give you a starting point.

[Art Mullinax]

When do you guys have time to go out and enjoy the boat??? After reading all of these posts seems like ya'll just bought a boat to have something else to work on.
Art (LAZY) M.
E29

[Tom Plummer]

Let me try this again this time I will read my reply before I send it.

Basic troubleshooting technique is to try and cut the problem in half. In this case what I would do is take the temp of the water when the relief valve lifts. If it is below the rated temp for the valve then out comes the heater and the valve gets replaced. If the temp is above the rated temp of the relief valve then the cooling system for you engine is the most likely suspect. Perhaps the thermostat is clogged or has to high of a relief setting. Most diesels are set between 160 and 190 degrees. Let us know what you find.

[stbdtack]

Finally decided the old rusty Raritan heater had to go. Besides being ready to fall apart, it kept the water hot for about 3 hours, and continually drooled into the bilge.
Practical sailor did a test and rated the isotemp best at keeping the water hot longest. All stainless was a bonus too. Ordered one from Great Water (they a pleasure to deal with) and just installed it.

This unit aint cheap( $495) but it is very high quality. I had just enough room (1/8") to get it into the cockpit locker. Also nearly doubled my capacity, 6 gallons up to 11 gallons. I read earlier about the BST threads and leaking issues but they sent adapters to NPT with the unit so I just used teflon thread seal and had no problems. It has a really efficient HE for the engine hook-up and I noticed that the water heated very quickly from the engine. After 24 hours the water was still hot enough to shower and 48 hours later it was still warm!! I doubt the old heater did that even when it was new.

They only come with a 750 watt element but a 1200 watt element is available. So far the 750 watts seems to heat quickly enough and at only 7 amps, I can use the inverter to "assist" the engine HE if I want fast hot water.
Thanks for all the info in the earlier posts. BTW the split-apart isulation model is still available if you have a clearance issue.

[Sean Engle]

Ooooooooohhhhhh-Ahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa - nice stuff, Ben! They really make excellent gear...you won't be sorry...

//sse

[stbdtack]

Thx Sean, hey I take it yours has been trouble free and youre happy with it?

I'm happy I can forget about my old leaky water heater now and just enjoy lots of hot water!:p

[Seth]

IIRC, those heaters were installed BEFORE the deck went on..explains a lot doesn't it, Sean?

That bulge might be a longitudinal stringer-to help carry the weight of items attached back there-I seem to recall seeing them as we laid the boats up on the production line...
S

[treilley]

Sean, do you recall if the 11 gallon model will fit in the 35-3? My WH is shot and I would love to add capacity.

[Glyn Judson]

Tim, Curious, I went to trusty old eBay and came up with these two hits. Could one of them be what you're looking for? 1. Quick 11 gallon water heater search. 2. 200158216666 Happy Holidays to all, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, where it's almost 70 degrees. Ho, ho, ho

[Glyn Judson]

Tim, Now that's better. 1. 320198434275 2. 200158216666 Glyn

[Glyn Judson]

Tim and all, shortly after buying the Dawn Treader almost 13 years ago, I planned to replace the water heater but decided totally against it in the long run. My E31 was them powered by a raw water Yanmar 2 and as such, couldn't really get any heater really hot with fresh water. When I removed it, it had that familiar sound we've all heard from our youth, that of a shattered and leaking Roy Rogers Thermos bottle. There's nothing that can replace the sound of milk and broken glass sloshing around in your matching lunch box. I had to remove the cheap outer skin to get it out over the engine and in the process of getting it out came to realize that it was 110 volt only, now a silly waste of space as all I had to do in the slip to shower was to go up the gangway and there were lovely showers there. That space has long since been rebuilt to accommodate two dedicated #27 batteries that run the Adler Barbour unit. If I want to shower when at Catalina Island, I pour 3-4 quarts, yes quarts, of fresh water into my 1 gallon (really 1.5) stainless steel Hudson sprayer and heat the contents on the propane stove for five minutes. A quick spin on of the the top and a few short pumps and that's all it takes to provide perfectly heated water, enough for the two of us (separately) to have a Navy shower including two shampoos each with a bit of water to spare. If it's been left on the stove too long and is too hot, a mere twisting of the nozzle tip atomizes the heated water and it's just right again. My next door neighbor is a recovering plumber and with his help & pipe bending tools, the brass sprayer wand is now U-shaped so squeezing the handle delivers water right back at the user. I stow the empty sprayer with lid off behind the wet weather gear in the hanging locker when not in use and it virtually takes up no room at all. Why not use a Sun Shower you say. The big difference is that you can be showering within minutes of the inspiration and you can do it at 0600 too. Later, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

[treilley]

This is what I am looking at Glyn:

http://www.great-water.com/pages/Isotemp/IT-BB-40-110.htm

My boat has a dedicated shower stall that we use often while gunkholing. We also love the hot water for cleaning dishes. I used a sun shower on my old boat and that was fine but it sure was tough to get motivated for a shower when you had to do it in the cockpit at 45 degrees or while raining.

[Glyn Judson]

Tim, Now that's what I'm talkin' about. You have chosen the best of the best of the best when it comes to water heaters, good call. I guess my point in using the Hudson sprayer although not a lovely as the Isotemp is that within 5-7 minutes one can be showering starting with dead cold water. I assume the Isotemp will store water for a while giving anyone wanting one a jump start with the heating process. Related but totally off topic, I just found out from our independent mechanic that there's a Thermos jug behind the drivers headlight of our 2004 Prius. It's there to facilitate easier cold starts, proof of which is that I start to get warm air coming out of the dashboard within 15 feet or so of backing out of our driveway. Apparently it'll keep water relatively hot in excess of 24 hours. Hmmmm, a little midnight auto and I too can have my own version of an Isotemp. Happy Holidays to all, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

[Loren Beach]

One of the "keys" to hot water pleasure on a boat is in the specs for the heater above: 11 gallon.
Within the limits of your space available on your particular boat, more capacity is good for a couple of reasons:
1) Using any of it causes the infusion of cold water and thereby lowers the tank temperature as the new mixes with the old.
2) The larger capacity makes for a larger thermal mass, to help guarantee hot water the next morning or even later.

We threw out the corroded-out six gallon factory alum. tank on our boat and installed a well-insulated four gallon all-SS tank from Atlantic.
I would have put back a six gallon, but lacked room for that size in the part of the boat where I was relocating the new tank into.
While it certainly makes and keeps hot water, the dilution effect really reduces the temp once you start to draw on it. If doing that project again I would try much harder to shoe-horn into place, somehow, the six gallon version.
Best,
Loren