Spinnaker vs Non

It is my understanding that some clubs allow spinnaker and non-spinnaker boats to compete in the same race, with a handicap hit (usually around 21 sec phrf) if the spinnaker is flown. I'm curious how this has worked out, if it has created any problems, and if there are any other issues to condsider. Seems to me that it would be a good way for intermediate skippers and crews to get some racing experience with a chute without having to jump in the deep end, so to speak, against seasoned crews and rocket sleds in spinnaker-only events. Any input would be welcomed.

In my club we add 12 seconds a mile to the phrf number if you sign up non spinnaker.
We recently changed this to 10 percent of your handy cap. Reason is if your boat rates say 230, 12 seconds is not a big differance, compared to a boat that rates 72.
The percentage is a better way to do it.
If it is a series then you should have to sign up at the beginning of the season and race that way throught the series. So you cant pick what days you do or dont want to fly the chute based on the weather.
Personally I feel your basic phrf rating assumes you have a spinnaker and it is up to you to use it or not, but if an adjustment gets more people out racing then its a good thing.
One more thing. Some boats are not designed to use a chute i.e. cat boats. Those boats should not be allowed to sign up non spinnaker.

With my E27, we rate 238 normally, and 265 with a kite, a 27 second difference. It depends a lot on your upwind sailplan, and PHRF figures this in. I go with non-overlapping headsails, so would have a substantially smaller downwind plan, when my 238 rating is based on a really big kite.

In Seattle, the Sloop Tavern Yacht Club runs 4 races a year that are non-flying sails, and they are a blast. Also, the greatest race in the Puget Sound, the Race to the Straits figures out NFS ratings for boats so they can compete equally.

NFS is a good way to learn some of the basics of downwind sailing. You can pole out sales, work on angles; all sorts of stuff.

Just remember, as I forgot once, in PHRF if you are racing NFS, you must do bareheaded changes!

A couple of questions

Perhaps I should point out that where I sail, there are 3 classes, Spinnaker, Non-spinnaker A, and Non-spinnaker B. "A" is generally considered to include race-prepped boats with high dollar sails and experienced crews, but who don't have the inclination or the manpower to fly a chute. "B" is oriented more for cruising boats that are not stripped out and generally have dacron sails. While some "B" crews have lots of experience, it is common to find green crews and/or skippers also, and it is a great place to start. Given that situation, and referring only to class "B", I still don't understand a couple of things: 1. If the phrf rating is relatively fair, why would it make that much difference if a boat declares for a single race or for the season? I understand that on some days a kite will be more advantageous than on others, but it is also true that on some days one kind of boat has a better chance than another - that doesn't keep the disadvantaged people from racing, and if folks are trying to learn to fly a spinnaker, I think they will try to use it whenever conditions are safe, and avoid it when they think they might be overreaching their skills. If they fly it, they take a handicap ding, and if they choose not to fly it, they are right back with the same handicap they would have had anyway; 2. Nigel, I am misunderstanding how your rating is figured - I would think it would be 238 with and 265 without, but that seems to contradict your description.
My main interest in all this is possibly to promote a venue for folks to learn some spinnaker skills and be competitive, while staying on their own boats and going against others in boats of a similar level of preparation.

yeah, I had those numbers completely reversed. While on the topic of spinnacres, this is from last weeks Round the County race in the San Juan Islands. Not an Ericson (J29), but still pretty cool. This was happening all around us. We took the kite down pretty early to avoid this, and with a reefed main and a #3 were still seeing 10-11kts through the water.

Nigel

Interesting photo Nigel. Two boats under spinnaker going opposite directions!

Guys,
I am coming upon this thread a little late as I have been down in the Keys, working. No play.
The way a boat is rated, with spinnaker and/or without, is a function of the rating authority, not the club. My Ericson 27 is rated by West Florida PHRF (westfloridaphrf.org) both with and without a cruising chute. Most of the time I race without. But if I choose to race "with" then I must tell the race organizers in advance. The boat will take a 22-second "hit" for using the cruising chute. The last time I used it in a race we were (a) the last boat in the fleet in a 50-mile race, (b) wrapped the chute around the headstay and (c) had to withdraw. Not fun.
My cruising chute is an "original issue" Ulmer "Flasher." The sail is 20 years old and looks awfully skimpy now. There's a new chute ordered for delivery in about three months. The new sails available today generally have bigger heads and are probably easier to use than the Flasher, which has a small head and can be carried (with some risk) all the way to a close reach, because the apparent wind comes forward when the boat accelerates.
When I was younger and a bit more flamboyant I used to go through bridges at hull speed with that sail up, counting on the bridge tender to get his end of the deal done well and get the bridge up in time. Had he not done so, I would have had no place to turn. Don't do that anymore.
I race my boat normally in a True Cruising class, meaning that the boat has dacron sails and is set up with the extras that normally adhere to boats that cruise...extra anchor, rode and chain; Bimini; footstuffs; cooking gear; books; etc. I get a bulk allowance for this class--about 9 seconds a mile. To further break out big boats from small boats in the class, there is a displacement break. I believe it to be 10,000+ and 10,000-. I think that the people who have been administering WFPHRF have good ideas, good intentions and a great deal of savvy. WFPHRF can bear some looking in to by people who want to see what it is like when it is all done right.
Morgan Stinemetz

Slow learner

I am still not able to understand one of the major arguments against racing spinnaker equipped boats against non-spinnaker vessels in phrf events. I have had some people tell me that taking a handicap hit of, say, 22 sec would be too much, that the boat would not then be as competitive, since that handicap applies on all legs. On a windward, leeward course the boat would actually have to cover an extra 44 sec/mi going downwind, as it would have no advantage upwind. Other people say, no, the spinnaker gives too much advantage, especially on light air days. Since handicap #s are averages, anyway, giving some boats a little edge in light air and others getting a break when the wind is up, wouldn't this principle also apply to spinnaker boats? If they run the chute when the air is light, they take a rating hit and have to cover it - that's what a fair handicap is all about. If they choose not to fly it when it's blowing like stink, then they revert back to their old handicap and race even-up with the non-spinny boats as before. I don't see a big advantage or disadvantage either way, but still have the feeling I'm missing an essential part of the argument. In other words, I'm still failing to see how a skipper can "cherry pick" his races if he has the option of declaring which configuration he will run on race day. He still has to cover the handicap either way.

Handicap racing

I will only speak for the way racing is done under PHRF on SF Bay. Around here a boat gets a rating based on having a good crew, clean bottom, good sails, and assumes the boat is equiped with a chute. Many clubs around here have non-spinnaker racing with the boats sailing with their standard ratings, and some but not many clubs put the non-spinnaker boats in with spinnaker boats in the same division. Usually if you sail non-spinnaker in a spinnaker division there is between 6 and 12 seconds a mile added to your handicap number by the club. You gotta have a PHRF certificate for almost any races that are not one design and that lays out what rating and configuration you will sail under. No one allows boats to go from non-spinnaker to spinnaker division changes in a series that I am aware of. Ryan

A little different take on it

Our club is discussing eliminating the separate non-spin class from our Wednesday Night weekly series and just give non-spin boats a rating allowance in the regular 2 PHRF classes that we run. Everyone has gotten a little tired of having a 4-5 boat fleet win podiums while racing on boats that "should" be running a kite (there's a Melges 36 in the non-spin fleet).
I think having a choice is an interesting idea, but agree that changing in a series would be odd.
Just thoughts,
Chris

For Bob

It is true that even if boats are allowed to cherry pick and declare the rating for each race-they will have to "cover" the rating in any case-that is true. But I think the reason this is typically not allowed is that race organizers attempt to remove as many variables as they can so that over the course of a series, each boat and skipper becomes a known quantity, and the difference in how they do is more the result of better sailing than manipulating the handicap-THAT is the real reason for handicapping-even the boats up and let the sailors win or lose based on the skill and decision making. It is contrary to the real spirit of sailboat racing to rely that much on the handicap issue to determine the outcome. Otherwise, each boat becomes a moving target, and the value of a series of races is diminished-it makes each race a separate event. Fleet and series tactics are a major aspect of racing, and having (or developing) some knowledge of you opponents' speed plays a significant part of the sport. Not very well thought out, but my opinion...

Sail safe,
S

Response to Seth

The point of handicapping, as I understand it, is to even the playing field for a variety of entrants and, theoretically at least, create a situation in which every boat has an equal chance of winning. Of course many factors conspire against this ideal, but you always hope that it is the best of what is understood to be an imperfect system no matter how much refining takes place. I know that some clubs adjust handicaps each year so that a specific boat that did well the previous year has to absorb a "hit" of a few seconds, while one of the same model that didn't have as good a record the year before might even be given an allowance the other direction in order to "even things out." Other clubs just go with the numbers assigned by whatever regional authority they are using, and make no individual adjustments. Where I race, the latter approach is used, and I have no problem with that, though of course it means a boat that is better prepped out and having a more seasoned crew will stand a better chance of winning. We don't have an abundance of boats - in fact, one of the major club issues is to work to add to the size of the racing fleets. A guy like me, who has been somewhat successful in non-spinnaker racing, might be interested in having a go at the next level - but only if he can get some kite work under his belt first. In my view, the best way to do that would be to encourage it in a lower class. Not to allow it means (at my age) that I most likely won't ever try to move up - why get my brains kicked in against the hot sleds when I can stay where I am and be competitive for the top spot in most every race? And the result is that people don't move up, everyone gets older, and when one of the members has a hot boat for sale, no one in the area is interested in buying it because they have no experience at that level. Speaking for myself, I have no interest in manipulating or taking advantage of handicap ratings, but rather would just like a chance to learn more at another level of racing. But it probably won't happen, because folks are worried about introducing another variable. The system will remain stable, but perhaps a few of us who would have learned some spinnaker technique now won't, and in the long run that might have been a desireable outcome.

handicaps

Sorry for the delay-I must have missed your response...I think we agree on everything-handicaps allow different ypes of boats to play on the most even field possible (theoretically). Seems we have said essentially the same thing.

On the topic of adjusting ratings after some period of time, this is done usually only in the case of boats that are not as well established. If you take a boat like an Ericson 27, 35-2, J 35, J 30 etc. that have "locked in" ratings-meaning the performance is very well documented and established, it is rare for one of these to get a hit or credit if the owner does very well or very poorly.

The adjustments are typically made on boats whose ratings have only a few years of history, or have not been rated by other PHRF regions.

It DOES happen, but normally to get a change on one of these boats (and there are many others) it takes a formal appeal at the national or regional level. Of course, a local club may do what it wants, but this is the usual way it is done. If you bring a new or unproven boat, the rating may get tweaked each year until it seems right.

I am with you on your observations and opinions, though.

Enjoy!

S