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Mandatory $9,000 fee in Marina del Rey coming

Gregoryulrich

Member III
This is real and it's coming.

There is a proposal set to come up for discussion calling for an 85% reduction by 2024 of copper pollutants discharged in Marina Del Rey.

The plan would require boaters to completely strip the hull of all copper anti-fouling paint ($6,000 to $8,000 for a 30 foot boat) plus the issuance of a Discharge Permit (about $1,000) to all boaters in Marina Del Rey.

READ HERE

The meeting is set for February 6th at Burton Chase Park. Written comments should be sent to Losangeles@waterboards.ca.gov

Questions should be directed to Michael Tripp at the LA Dept of Beaches and Harbors Mtripp@bh.lacounty.gov

I would love for this post to not become a rant about government but rather a rally point. As a guy who has surfed and scubaed the Los Angeles coast for 20 years I know pollution is a problem that needs to be addressed. I stopped surfing Hammerlands and El Porto because I got rashes from the water. This misguided approach will kill boating for the general public. I will try to draft a form letter to post on some of the more active forums out there but perhaps one of the more erudite members on this forum can do a better job.
 
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Ccaptain

Ccaptain
TEA Party

Most people rag on the TEA party and are unaware that most of us only participate in the "taxed enough already" portion of the "party" and are for less government control which usually means smaller government. Do not generalize us. Thank you.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Perhaps there is a Pure Hysteria section of the Forum where you fellows could continue to clarify your positions, rather than sections I might accidentally read.
 

Gregoryulrich

Member III
Way to elevate the conversation Christian. I'll assume you haven't read the signs posted on the marina bathrooms and at Chase Park. I didn't pull those figures or citations out of the air. They come directly from the flyer posted by my marina management. The burden of spare $6k for a 41 year old 27ft boat is not as easily or happily born by those of us not living in the Palisades.
 

Gregoryulrich

Member III
Ccaptain I apologize for the Tea Party reference. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I've edited the post to reflect that.
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Perhaps you could explain a bit more about what copper based antifouling has to do with pollution? Of course the copper leaches out and is harmful to certain aquatic species, is that the pollution you're speaking of? And what, if anything, are the boaters supposed to use in place of copper based coatings?
 

Gregoryulrich

Member III
The report cites cuprous oxide based anti-fouling paint as a significant source of pollution. One aspect suggests the complete stripping of the hull to the gel coat to completely remove the contaminant. Another cites the issuance a discharge permit to all boaters in MDR slips for the purpose of enforcement, among others. As for alternatives here's a direct citation:


Proposed Implementation Options
Options for reducing copper discharge from boats include switching from copper-based to non-toxic antifouling paints, use of slip liners, and use of less-abrasive hull cleaning
techniques. The Regional Board is working with the paint industry to supply boaters with effective options and pursuing public funding to subsidize paint conversions.





READ HERE for the summary.
HERE is the draft version of the TMDL Report.
Boaters can call Mr. Tripp at the Beaches and Harbors department for more specific information.

The inflammatory headline I posted was purposely designed to generate an emotional response to get forum readers involved in a process that could directly affect them in a meaningful way. The outcome is far from certain but without public input boat ownership could get a whole lot more expensive in L.A.
 

ref_123

Member III
Hmm... I am afraid it's a CA state law now. There was a big discussion last year, at least :). Not sure how did the vote go on this one... Copper-based paints are getting killed. So, it's not only MDR initiative. We are all under the gun.

Next time we paint the bottom things may get interesting... and expensive.
 

Gregoryulrich

Member III
It is state law and is now being implemented in a couple places. It is my understanding that how it will be implemented in MDR is up for discussion.
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Isn't a "non-toxic antifouling paint" sort of an oxymoron? I mean it won't be anitfouling unless it's toxic to something. First we lost tributyl tin, now copper.

I wonder if grey water discharge limitations can be far behind in good old California.
 

ref_123

Member III
Don't give them THAT idea!

Ablative paints got much better lately, so this is where most of us supposed to go - or so I've heard...
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
There are many sides to this mess, but the most important one we already failed at.

We have already lost the anti fouling battle we lost it when we didn't respond to the flawed and manipulated study that was conducted in 2011. The word in the halls of government is that non biocide paint works better than copper, and that the only reason that we don't use it already is because we are traditionalists. Furthermore we should be forced to fix this issue because we are fat cat boater that have all the money in the world to do so.

The reality is that the issue of how much biocide based anti-fouling paint effects the general marine eco system outside of marinas is something that has never been addressed in ANY study. The studies have all taken place inside the confines of the marina directly over which was floating boats. The only one that I know that was done outside of marinas was the one involving the effects of TBT on marine life in most of the CA areas.

Unfortunately the TBT study was also flawed as it failed to identify the majority of the source of the TBT polution, it was assumed that the source of all the TBT in the marine eco system was from leaching of bottom paint from the bottom of boats. Some better scientific method should have been involved and before the study was even started the potential sources should have been checked. The argument was that the TBT had leached and was never leaving the marine environment or the tissues of the creatures that lived in that environment. The numbers that were found were way in excess of the amount that could have been leached out of all of the anti-fouling paint that was currently applied or had ever been applied to the bottoms of boats, especially recreational boats. So an assumption was made that all of this was constantly being recycled in the environment, and was the fault of boats, ships, and protected underwater structures. No where in the study did anyone mention, or investigate the use of TBT in HVAC (Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning) use for shore based installations. Shore based installations were using TBT injection systems, where TBT was directly injected into the piping used for cooling water intake on shore based HVAC solutions. Directly injected, not leached........... The law was passed to ban TBT along with the stricter EPA laws that eliminated the use of seawater based HVAC cooling systems. The fact that these occurred at the same time lead those that had placed the blame on the "rich yachtsman" to point to the results and claim a victory.

The current study on the effectiveness of non copper based paints including Zinc and other "slippery" solutions, is one of the most flawed scientific studies that I have ever read. Had I turned that in as a final paper to any of my professors I would have been flogged, had a dunce cap placed on my head, and been escorted from the campus.

So lets look at the purpose of the study:
"In California, and in coastal communities throughout the United States, water quality is significantly impacted by the copper used to coat boat hulls, large and small. The California Department of Toxic Substances Control (DTSC), a grantee of EPA, identified cost-effective methods for boat owners to protect both their boats and water quality. EPA’s grant assisted DTSC in identifying boat hull coatings that can reduce copper pollution in marinas, while boosting boat performance and cost-effective maintenance over the long-term. Like its predecessor EPA grant, implemented by the Unified Port of San Diego, this project successfully established the viability of non-copper anti-fouling boat hull coatings for both performance and cost-effectiveness. However, while the San Diego project looked at both biocide and non-biocide coatings, in this DTSC project, the grantee solely studied the effectiveness of non-biocide coatings, as well as alternative painting and stripping methods."​

Wow wait, There are a heck of a lot of non scientific assumptions here, where is the science behind "water quality is significantly impacted by the copper used to coat boat hulls, large and small". Hint there isn't any. The paragraph should read "Water quality is significantly impacted by the release of sewage, both treated and untreated. This pollution is caused by the residual hormonal and anti-biotic drugs which are not removed from treated water." Opps that means that the people that live on the shore would be responsible instead of those wealthy boater are always the problem.

OK so there were no scientists on the grant committee, lets move on from there, surely there must have been scientists in the study right.... Lets look at their findings first:
"While non-biocide paints perform well in all water temperatures, they do especially well and more cost effectively in the cold water temperatures of northern California, since they incur less marine fouling and, therefore, require less boat hull cleaning frequency. Furthermore, while copper-based paints last on average two years, non-biocide coatings can last as long as ten years.​

Uh wait a minute... Ten years, none of these paints have been on the market for 10 years. The 6 of the 8 paints tested in the study are not on the market even now! They were TEST PRODUCTS specifically give to these testers....

Then there is my favorite part of the whole study. How often are the panels and the boats cleaned.;
"The panel testing involved inspecting panels with nonbiocide paints every three weeks for one year.
During the inspections, the level of fouling, the ease of cleaning the fouling and the coating condition were noted. The results showed that five of the emerging nonbiocide paints performed very well.
IRTA selected four of these paints and one additional emerging paint for testing on boats"​
Every three weeks the panels were cleaned.. Hmmm Great paints you know there is never any build up on them... Here lets clean everything off again and see if there is any buildup in three weeks... I don't think there were any scientists or boaters on this research committee.

It doesn't get any better on the boats:
In the Port/IRTA project, the annual maintenance costs were estimated by obtaining costs from three different diving companies in the San Diego area. The maintenance cost varies based on three factors.
First, the maintenance or cleaning cost depends on the size of the boat. Second, the cleaning cost depends on the type of boat; the cost of maintaining a sailboat is less than the cost of maintaining a powerboat. Third, the maintenance cost varies depending on the type of paint on the boat hull.
All three of the diving companies had experience cleaning boats with copper paint and hard nonbiocide paint. Only one of the diving companies had experience cleaning the soft nonbiocide paint. The copper biocide paint and soft nonbiocide paints were commonly cleaned by divers 15 times per year, every three weeks in the summer and every four weeks in the winter. All three diving companies agreed that
the hard nonbiocide paints needed cleaning more often but the frequency varied. The average of the three annual costs was used for the hard nonbiocide paints. The maintenance cost for the one diver with experience cleaning the soft nonbiocide paints was used in the analysis.​
Really cleaned every three weeks???... NO!!! I have the bottom of my boat cleaned never in the first two years, (Oh wait my bottom paint lasts for more than the two years they say it will in the study... Then again I use a quality bottom paint, Petit Trinidad. ) I have the boat bottom generally cleaned 1 time in the 3rd year if I haven't been sailing enough, 2 times in the 4th year, and 3-4 in the fifth year. I have my boat cleaned less times in 5 years than they do in the first 2 months. No wonder their bottom paint only lasted for 2 years, the diver scraped all of it off cleaning it!

Go read the report, these are only the biggest of the errors, the application method, all of the cost tables, etc are founded on just as poor assumptions as the ones reported above. http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/PollutionPrevention/upload/DTSCboatfinalrept1.pdf

Where we failed:
1> We failed in not ever getting together a lobbying group, national and local. We failed because we don't get heard. Want to be heard as a group... We need a boaters membership group that lobbies for US! Heck even Ham radio operators do better at this than we do (ARRL).
2> We are letting our own sport, hobby, lifestyle wither and die. We didn't get out there and take more people sailing. We don't introduce people the wonder of being out on the water, with the wind in our hair, and the magic carpet under our feet. Most of us don't do it enough ourselves. The average boat leaves the dock only 7 days a year. The magic ins't in the next round of electronics, how to hook my ipad into my onboard toaster. The magic is in sailing getting out there and being in the wilderness that is being on the water. We all know this, we know that a $2,000 Ericson 27 is all that you need, you don't need a 50 footer to have fun sailing, you just need a small sailboat some wind, and TIME. We need to teach this to more people!
3> We don't take enough care of the environment as a group. We need to be seen more as a group as the defenders of the environment, not the detractors. We don't do enough PR for ourselves in what we do for the environment.

I know too long to read right?
:)
 
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Lucky Dog

Member III
Agreed. I lost my job over an environmental impact of chicken "farm" to our water shed. They ended up leaving the state to pollute elsewhere.... Yes I'd do it again. Read Last Child in the Woods, Book by Richard Louv. It's only a matter of time.
 

ref_123

Member III
Guy, great write-up.

Thanks Lord, engine water discharge bill failed! Otherwise we'd have to do a mandatory upgrade to electric engines or pay dues on our cooling water.

Regards,
Stan
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
Last Child in the Woods

I had mentioned Last Child in the woods originally in the write up. But edited it out.

The book is a good book because of the subject matter that it addresses. I recommend it to everyone that I can think of.
The book could be better written, but it does adequately lay out and support it's point that we all need to have some wilderness time.
I think that you should read the book and substitute People for children.

The question here is as it always is; Here we are where are we going from here as individuals and as a group. As our numbers dwindle and the cost of the lifestyle increases, without some intervention boating is going to go away in the near future.

Guy
:)
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Guy I am shocked - SHOCKED - to think that a government run scientific study might not have been conducted in a reasonable manner!

Actually, sad as this is, none of it surprises me. After 40 years as a scientist the one thing that seems to remain constant is that most scientific studies and experiments are poorly designed. Everyone begins a study with the end in mind, and doesn't spend time looking for alternative explanations for the very results they expected. The idea of objective science is just a myth.

The area I get most involved in right now has to do with "green" chemicals, and trying to balance the competing (and usually mutually exclusive) goals of natural, renewable, non-toxic, and low carbon footprint for all the chemicals we use. But I digress.

What about the poor sod at MDR who just spent a fortune getting his hull copper coated? Is he going to have to peel the entire coating off?
 

Jeff Asbury

Principal Partner
Think I will wait and let my diver keep scrubbing.

I was going to haul out in the next couple of months for new paint. Think I will wait and see and just let my diver keep scrubbing it off for now. I remember reading about this in the Boat US magazine from a year or two ago. I think I may have even posted on the forum about it. As I recall I also got sent e-mail a petition of some sort where they had a form letter with the e-mail address of someone in the CA legislature asking me to sign and e-mail to them, which I did. I think that came from Boat US.

After reading the article in Boat US, it doesn't seem like there are any other bottom coatings that are effective. None cost effective anyway.

You all may have seen / read this already, but here's the detailed article from Boat US, although I think Guy covered most of this, Thanks Guy!

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2012/february/copper.asp
 

Gregoryulrich

Member III
Well...

I have a hard time accepting that anyone really believes that +-6,500 boats leeching biocides isn't going to have a negative impact on the environment. That thinking is why my home state of New Jersey has so many superfund sites.

The scientific study's scope and efficacy aside, the meeting is about how to achieve that reduction. I'm going to suggest leaving the copper based paint on and using a non biocide paint for subsequent bottom paintings. Eventually the levels would drop as layers of non biocide paint replace the cuprous oxide and older boats are replaced with newer boats. Requiring over 5,500 boaters (85%!) to completely strip their hulls to bare gel coat seems radical.

I'm probably going to speak at the meeting to give my perspective. Realistically that cost is almost twice the value of my boat. That's a hardship.
 

ref_123

Member III
Well... Think as a politician for a moment.

Just imagine the benefits to local economy! Boat yards will hire people, paint manufacturers will sell a ton of crap that is considered "safe" at the moment, EPA will hire more inspectors, all local diners will prosper feeding all these people! Win-win-win for everyone!

Except boaters, of course. But who cares? They are the ones polluting, allegedly...

Makes me want to move to New Zealand.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
Ha Ha Ha, bottom paint is horrible in NZ....

They have already outlawed everything that works in NZ. The paint you get there is horrible.

Guy
:)
 
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