Hull configuration?

I recently was invited to go club racing with a guy in his Newport 28. I told him we could take my boat, (E27) if he wanted to. His boat is a bit on the ratty side while mine is well maintained.

Anyway, he told me that we would stand a much better chance in the race with his Newport because of it's hull configuration or something like that.

I don't know anything about hull configuration or racing either for that matter, so I said nothing...

Would someone care to educate me a little. I would appreciate it.

Racing, Sailing, Learning.....

Without casting excessive doubt on your friend's racing knowledge...


in most "club racing" the scoring is done via some sort of handicap system. Hull shape, per se, will not help or hurt you.
*How you sail your own boat* is what counts. (Repeat this sentence several times, and take two asprin.)


If I remember it right, the fin-keel Newport 28 is assigned a slightly "faster" handicap number to sail up to than your shorter and rounder-bilged E-27. For that matter, my Olson 34 is assigned a "faster" number yet -- which means I have to sail it very well to correct out ahead of you if we race...

For either boat, success on the race course will depend on the skill of the crew and condition/equipage of the boat and sails. You, as skipper, are important, but less so than these other variables, IMHO.

If you can schedule some racing, try to do so in your own boat. The rules will take some study -- because racing will bring you into close proximity with other boats and the basic ColRegs are no longer quite enough...

That aside, racing provides you with a continuous input of information about what makes your boat faster and more efficient on all points of sail. Be patient with yourself and your crew, keep your sense of humor and proportion, and you will learn more about handling your boat in one season of racing that you would in years of pottering about, otherwise.

And you should do just fine around the buoys....

"Ratty" boats are seldom fast....
and seldom any fun to sail...

Best Wishes,

Loren
ps: look at this thread for a winning E-27.
http://www.ericsonyachts.com/infoexchange/showthread.php?s=&threadid=794

Hull shapes

Loren is correct (as usual). Yes the Newport 28 is a somewhat more "modern" hull shape (the trend from the late 60's has been evolving from rounded bilges, large swept back fin keels, etc.) towards finer entries, flatter bottoms, and deeper, higher aspect keels which are more of an appendage than an extension of the hull shape-and is a faster cruiser/racer than the Ericson 27-as it should be anyway with a longer waterline and taller rig.

What really matters, as Loren states is how fast (and how well) you can sail YOUR boat to it's assigned handicap number(rating).
In theory, an equally well prepared E 27 will be an even match to the Newport after handicaps are taken into consideration.

One caveat is that the handicaps most of us use (PHRF) are assigned by a committee (as oppsed to other handicap systems,which physically measure the boat and rig), and can be arbitrary and sometimes not reflective of the boats' relative speed.

In general though, it is pretty good for most boats of this type and good competitve racing between differing types (E27 vs. Newport 28) is possible.

So, if you get the racing bug, clean up your deck layout for efficient sail handling, put a fast bottom job on it, and buy some fantastic sails (and you know where to get those, right??), and GO GET 'EM!!!

You will doubtless get many good tips on how to get the most from the boat on this forum. ENJOY!!!

Am I just chicken?

Thanks to Loren and Seth... There is so much to learn, I never feel like I know half enough.

I have been sailing on and off for quite a few years but I have never done any racing. All these years, I have done my best to stay as far away from the other boat as practical, (common sense right)?

We start out with a dozen big boats or more, all sailing around in tight circles like high-strung race horses that won't get into the gate... (This is a bit scarey.) After that, rounding the first couple of bouys is kind like playing chicken or running the charriot race in Ben Hur. Is this real? A big J boat, bearing down on us with a uniformed crew and six men riding the rail... She passed us like a locomotive and forcing us to tack at the last second. This is crazy, (but fun).

We experienced, (time and again) what's called in aviation jargon, a (near-miss). If we were flying an airplane, we would have had to file a report with the FAA and undergo a serious investigation. A near-miss is something you never want to happen and would never do intentionally.

At one point, we slipped in behind a big boat and rode his transom. we were there long enough and (close enough) to carry on a nice conversation in a normal voice.

OK, is this how it is? The only thing keeping us from being wrecked are a few right-of-way rules?

It's very exciting but it seems a bit insane if you really stop and think about it. (Can't stop stupid, we're in a race here!)

Ain't it great!

How did you guys do?

One of my co-workers asked how it could be racing @ 6 M.P.H. After crewing for me one Wed. night he was wide eyed and commented that he never knew people would get their boats that close just for braging rights. To which I replied we wern't close, we couldn't have gotten on another boat without getting wet!
Having owned an E27 I can say that they can be very competive in a PHRF fleet. As Loren & Seth stated, good sails & crew skills are more important than having a "race boat". If there is a JAM (jib & main only, no spinakers) fleet in your area, this would be a good place to start. The rules can be VERY confusing for a newcomer, but by getting out there and watching you will soon pick up a tremendous amount of knowledge. We all had to learn sometime and their is no time like the present.
I have found that your sailing skills grow much faster on the race course. You can quickly see that a particular adjustment helped or hurt your performance. Soon you will have boats identified as boats you should always beat & boats that you have to strive to beat. You'll learn how to make the boat sail well in various conditions and it will give you a lot of confidence in your abilities.
The biggest thing is to keep it FUN! Nothing will chase prospective crew away faster than a screamer! Weather we finish first or last isn't as important as having the crew show up next week. We have our good nights & bad nights but after the finish we have a couple of barley-pops, talk about what we did right & wrong, and generally have a good time.
To sum it up, I won't give up cruising just to race, but I won't give up racing just to cruise, either. The two add to the whole sailing experience.
Have fun & sail fast
Bud E34 "Escapade"

Race Report

I have to admit that my friend and his ratty boat did well. I believe we finished 2nd over-all in corrected time. We actually did come in ahead of an E38 and a Cal36.

My friend's ratty boat is really set-up just to race. He has spared no expense top-side to have everything just right, (except any painting or varnish). His mast and boom now all have internal halyards and all the sheets and halyards run to the cockpit through labeled break-blocks. He has a variety of racing sails with one light-air head sail that he refers to as his sandwich-wrap. He has added several dedicated winches on the cabin roof and other stuff that I haven't figured out yet. I joked with him about his winches...
"I'll bet you got one in the head to handle the toilet paper... ha ha."
"Nope, he replied, don't need one. I never carry any toilet paper. It just gets wet and weighs to much,"
Another regular crewman gave me a look that meant, "no he ain't kidding."

Which brings us down below, (where the rats live). The interior of his racing machine is nothing more than one large sail and rope locker with wet cushions, somewhere under there. The stove and other things have been removed to save weight and an ice chest is only permitted, provided that it is moved to a new strategic position each time we tack.

His tactics are also a bit ruthless. We started the race on a starboard tack, running parallel to the starting line on a broad reach. At the warning horn we were cutting across the bows of every other boat and causing them to veer off before they could cross. I don't know if this was intentional or by design but I don't like it. One boat was far enough ahead that we would have tee-boned him but we jibed and came up around his stern. This whole manuever actually placed us last crossing the starting line.

Another thing that I didn't like, happened to my twelve year-old son who found himself in the way. Our skipper ordered him below and kept him there even after he got sick and threw-up.

So, anyway my first racing experience was good and bad and next time I think I'll take my boat and be the boss. I hope I can talk my son into trying it again with me. After all I told him, "some of your video games make me feel dizzy and sick."

"keep it fun" will be my motto and thanks to Escapade for that great advice.

Racing

Well, "keep it fin" is definitely the attitude to take-BUT, once you gain some confidence in your boat handling, sail selection, and racing rules, you will find that "keep it fun" involves some of the things that scared you!

Provided you play the rules, the agressiveness is very much a part of the game-such as gauging whether or not you can cross a competitor while you are on port tack, gaining the inside overlap (advantage) at the bottom mark, starting tactics, etc.

It is true that the winners avoid protests and collisions as much as they can, but to get or stay ahead often means pushing the rules to the limit.

By all means do some sailing on your boat (with you in charge), but also try and get as much experience as you can on other well-sailed boats. If you sail with poorly sailed boats, you won't realize the benefit and fun that comes from hard, aggressive sailing; you will just get yelled at, and maybe hurt.
If the bug really bites you, you can shave YEARS off your learning curve by attending a performance/racing seminar (or course). J-World, or Gladstone both offer excellent courses.

Good sailing!

Read this in a deep loud vioce. "were her to have FUN boys, and how do we spell FUN ? W I N"
Ted Turner

If I had Ted Turners money I could afford an attitude like that, but unfortunately I was born poor!
Our crew sticks together for our Wed. night beer can runs, the Bayview-Mackinaw race, Lake Huron Yachting Assn. events, etc. all the while working HARD for beer! We race hard and have fun doing it. It really is possible.
FWIW, I have attended Bill Gladstone's seminars and they are very informative. Bill has the ability to convey enormous amounts of information while keeping it interesting and entertaining. Seth is correct in stating that it would be worthwhile to take a course from him. I have never been to J-World but have talked to people that have attended and they feel that it is also worthwhile.
It's all a learning curve and depending how serious you get dictates how quickly you'll pick up on things. J-World is for serious racers where Gladstone's has information that cruisers can take advantage of as well as racers.
Bottom line is get out on the water & sail. After 2 1/2 yrs of working on that boat you deserve it.
Bud E34 "Escapade"

Racer vs Cruiser

Thanks Bud...

I think it sounded like I was a bit of a cry-baby because I had a few critical comments about about my born-to-race buddy and his spartan ways.

I'll admit that cruisers could learn a lot from the race guys but, I also think that racers could learn a thing or two from the cruisers.

My little boat is clean and dry and smells good, (most of the time). I cary an extra jacket and a blanket or two for anyone that might get cold. I keep the fuel and water tanks topped off as well as alcohol for the stove. My little galley is equiped with a few pots and pans and I alway have something to eat or drink on board. The medicine cabinet always has some stuff for seasickness as well as the regular first aid and we have music if you want.

I guess what I am trying to say is that some of these things, I don't consider optional, (race or no race). I am not sure, but I think Bruce King would agree... (Whata you think, Martin?) Mr. King designed a line of yachts that would do well in a race or on a cruise. I think that's one of the reasons why these boats remain so popular. Must we sacrifice a little comfort for the competition of the race?

I understand the competitive nature of racing and the desire to win, but sometimes I think it can spoil the fun or even be dangerous. Many major ocean races have ended up in real disasters for one reason or another. Sometimes race skippers fail or are late to shorten sail in a real blow, choosing instead, to drive hard, head-on into a storm for the sake of the race. Heaving-to is, (of course) out of the question. Sometimes the hulls themselves fail and break open and the yacht sinks. The whole race boat itself was designed to weigh nothing except for it's massive keel. The hull of a seventy foot racing yacht might be no thicker than thin cardboard. One of Amerca's Cup yachts recently sank off Long Beach Ca. I believe they had a little problem with the rudder? Oops!

I am thankful that Bruce King didn't design my boat like that and I and very glad that Ericson didn't build my boat like that. (Win or not, I prefer to get home without the long swim.)

The stupidest races I know, are the single-handed open-ocean races. It has never been a good idea to go to sea alone. Just ask Joshua Slocum (the first single-hander), about his second trip around the world and many other late-great single-handed race sailers. Am I the only one who sees this as a serious lapse of common sense? Little lemmings, (I believe), have a fun race to the edge of a cliff. After that they too, have a good swim in the ocean.

Anyway, I suppose that some race sailors just have to win to feel like they are having fun. Maybe I am just making excuses because I know that the only way I could ever win a yacht race is the one that nobody but me shows up for. But maybe... just maybe, I might have some valid points here?

Re: Racer vs Cruiser

Originally posted by Jim Baldwin
But maybe... just maybe, I might have some valid points here?

Click to expand...

My grandfather and namesake founded the largest sailing club in the world some 80 years ago; Svenska Kryssar Klubben. The name translates to The Swedish Cruising/Tacking Club.

He told me several times that sailing was one of the most pleasant and rewarding things you could do in life. To engage in an activity to try to end the sailing as soon as possible was about as stupid an idea as he could think of.

I still raced in HS because that was the only way I could spend the fall and spring on a sailboat, before getting back to the Baltic to sail during the summer. I'm not sure he approved of my excuse




-Sven

Takes all kinds

Certainly sailing is for most of us a spiritual experience - I find the one hour drive from my place to the marina is a pleasant period of anticipation; the time spent getting the boat ready is not really work; putting her away at the end of a day on the water is (usually) a positive part of the whole process; and driving home is a good time to reflect on what I learned that day, or just to get my psyche adjusted back from 'mellow' to 'rat-race'. In other words, the fun doesn't start or stop at the water's edge. And we have all experienced those special days when the 'magic quotient' of being on the water in a wind-powered vessel was a little higher than usual. But this can result from a laid-back daysail, an offshore cruise, or a closely contested race. Like components of a delicious meal, each offers a flavor the others lack. I first sailed a boat in 1963, but didn't skipper in a serious race until this year. How much I missed! Luckily my club offers a "B" class for those who don't strip out their boats, who are beginners, who don't know the subtleties of the rules, who don't want to buy new sails every other season, and/or who value their friendships with their competitors more than their right to protest an infraction. It's great! People have gone out of their way to help me, and have pretended not to notice when I screwed up. I've learned more about sail trim in one year than in the previous twenty. I keep the boat in better shape. I'm a better daysailor now, and would be a better cruiser, too. Not all racers are go-for-the-throat types - though I suspect that is a symptom of more advanced stages of the disease. As you learn the rules and how to handle the boat in close quarters, you can be more aggressive and yet safer at the same time. And though there might not be any research to support it, I suspect racing a sailboat blows a little cholesterol out of the pipes as well.

another voice

Jim,
First let me say that we are a community of (more or less) like-minded people who love sailing, nature, and the sea. Hopefully you have seen our willingness to help each other on this forum as proof of that.
At the risk of sounding rude, the comments you made don't stand up to real scrutiny, and are often heard from the lesser experienced folks.

If you looked hard at the data, you will find that by an overwhelming margin, sea accidents and failures of seamanship are MUCH more common among cruisers than racers. The simple fact is that in general racers have a much deeper understanding of the forces at work at sea, and how best to manage them. Have there been accidents to racers? Of course, but not to the same degree. This even extends to boat design-the design types considered "classic", like the Colin Archer (Slocum) types are arguably successful IN SPITE of the design qualities, not because of them. A heavy, slow boat that can't get itself off of a lee shore in a gale is not seaworthy, in my view. A boat that is so slow it must remain in the "bad" side of a depression, exposing itself to damaging seas is not safe. Give me a boat that can outrun a gale and I"ll take it everytime.

Finally, the confidence that (most) racers gain from truly understanding the interaction of wind, sails, and hull shape, and the natural ability to sail a boat upwind in close quarters may appear to be reckless, but if you got to the point where it was truly "second nature", you would understand.

There are exceptions to everything, but in general, all oif the advances in safety, performance, and navigation have come from the perrformance side of the sport-not the other way around.

Food for thought-Stay with it, stay safe, and have fun.
Happy holidays!

Jim,
I don't want to take sides in any "cruisers vs. racers"
arguments-'cause it's all pointless. Sounds like you
experienced a different side to sailing (racing) and his
methods and objectives are different than yours.

My first love is cruising but I really learned about sailing
through racing -starting in sabots at age 7 and progressing
from there. There is much to be learned from racing that
can be applied to even just casual daysailing. On the other
hand, not everything good about sailing design is handed
down from racing either. The later versions of the IOR
rules encouraged development of some unsafe boats-
boats more stable when inverted. Case in point, the disastrous
'77 Fastnet. Besides rule-beaters, designers are forced to
shave safety margins to 0 to save weight sometimes resulting
in disasters like when the AC boat 1Australia folded up like
a jackknife, and sank like a stone. Besides questionable
design practices, competitive racing -particularly ocean racing,
encourages one to put to sea when sometimes the prudent
choice would be to hole up at the club bar with a hot toddy
until conditions change.

Since you asked about my dad I can tell you that he would
never design an unsafe boat-most especially an Ericson. And
he has done some radical stuff. Most probably don't recall
the bilgeboard designs "Terrorist", and "Hawkeye", but for
a short time in the mid seventies, nothing could touch them.
Hawkeye won every one of her races in the SF big boat series
by overwhelming margins and the rule writers had to re write
the book. Whoops, I'm digressing. Just remember that whether
you are on board a stripped out, testosterone fueled, win at
all costs machine, or a big, comfortable tub, that in the final analysis, sailing is a really dumb way to get around on the water!

Regards,
Martin

Thanks Martin

Thanks for bringing my tirade down a bit-and I had the pleasure of sailing a lot on Terrorist (don't even go there on the stability issue), a little on Hawkeye, and don't forget Aggressive II! Totally radical boats, yes. Seaworthy when handled by competent seamen? Of course. And that is the point; radical does not always mean unsafe or wrong.
Just to reiterate, those "disasters" were EXCEPTIONS to the norm-keep in mind many IOR boats safely completed the 79 Fastnet as well, and many 'vintage" IOR design are now world cruisers. Were a few IOR design just plain wrong? Yes. Was the IOR rule an indictment against seaworthy, safe boats, of course not (Ericson 37, 39 and 46 for example).
Most of the progress in sailing has come from the performance end-can we all get along?

Stupidest Races

Hi Jim,

I have an E 35 Mk II. Its a 1971 and I've had her for 13 years now. My girl friend and I sailed her to Mexico From San Fransisco in 99, complete with bar-b-q, Dingy outboard, full livaboard stuff and a cat. By the way she was my home for the first seven years I had her.
The first time I took her out of the slip by my self meaning single handed, I just took her just outside the marina and then back to the slip. It was a graet feeling of achievement. I took baby steps single handing more and more from then on. There is a group in the SF area called the Single Handed Sailing Society SSS. They sponser about 7-8 races in and around the Bay each year. I decided I wanted to do the single handed Farallones race in April 97. The Farallones are 28 miles straight out the Golden Gate in the Gulf of the Farallones.
I did the race and won my non spinnaker division. I never thought I would win, it was my first time alone in the ocean. It really felt great to have done the race win or lose. I have done the race every year since and have never got first again, but it still feels great.
The SSS sponsers the Single Handed Transpac every other year.
In 2000 I did it and so did a vintage Ericson 32 called Bettina.
Niether of us got firts place but we sure had a time to remember.
The SSS puts on a series of seminars before each Trans Pac, These cover subjects such as : emergency steering, self steering, electrical systems, radio systems, medical, sails and rigging. weather, sleep managment and more. All usefull to more than just racers.
After sailing home in 2000 (with a friend on board ) I said I would never do it agian. But you know what, I am this comming June. Its just some thing you cant forget, the feeling of accomplishment.
This year it looks like there will be three E-35s. Two 30+ years old and one newer.
I invite you to take a look at the SSS websit @ www.sfbaysss.org
and go to the discussion forum. There is much to be learned there.
Single handing for long ocean crossings is dangerous, and I believe illegal. You cannot maintian a watch when you are asleep. But so is cruising with two onboard dangerous. You cant tell me that with two or even three people onboard some one is allways allert to whats out there, I've done it and thats not what hapends.
So please don't knock it if you havn't done it. And I know you havn't because you would feel differently.

Fair winds.

Phil

Nice job

Phil,

That was an excellent example of the joys and benefits of short and singlehanded sailing-and even a great example of how we become better sailors and seamen (and women) through racing.

The only error was the part about singlehanding being illegal for ocean crossings. It is definitely legal! You are correct in that the risks are higher than if you have a lrger crew, but it is legal, and if done correctly and responsibly, the risks are not out of hand. If they were, we would have a much larger number of incidents.
How is it done responsibly?
1). Minimize your time in established shipping lanes.
2). Set alarms on your autopilot and compass to alert you of any change in course
3). Set up a wake/sleep schedule so you are not "off watch" for longer than a specified amount of time(depends on location, weather, etc.)
4). Today's boats have radar, with alarms. If a contact is made on the radar, an alarm will sound.
5). Keep your radio on, with the volume up.

These are established practices and have been proven over time. No system is 100% foolproof-remember the American Nuke sub that hit and sank the Japanese fishing vessel off Hawaii? They had a full crew and all the tech stuff, and S..happens. But if you are diligent and seamanlike, the risks are manageable.

Boy, we can keep this thread alive, can't we??

Re: Nice job

Originally posted by Seth
The only error was the part about singlehanding being illegal for ocean crossings. It is definitely legal! You are correct in that the risks are higher than if you have a lrger crew, but it is legal, and if done correctly and responsibly, the risks are not out of hand.

Click to expand...

I think you are correct. If I read Chapmans interpretation of the law correctly it is not illegal to single-hand (thank goodness !) but if there is an incident you have to prove that it could not have been avoided by adding on-watch crew.



-Sven

bla bla bla

I am just having fun... I hope everyone else is too. I also think I am learning a lot by reading all the comments. I do want sailing to become second nature to me and that means that I will have to spend some time racing (as Seth suggests).

I bet Sven's grandfather would have been interesting to know... Sven's ancestors, (the Vikings) built and sailed the finest ships of their time and ruled the waves for several hundred years. These men truly had salt water in their veins.

Seth would point out however, that Viking ships were built to be the fastest and most manuverable vessels afloat and that the seamanship skills of the Vikings themselves, was second to none. (Not to comfortable though), how would you like to cross the North Atlantic in an open rowing/sailing vessel? I wonder if the Vikings raced around the fiords on Sunday?

Like Bob, I also have at least an hour drive down to the marina. The trip is usually anything but pleasant. Take the guy behind me for example... He is riding my tailgate and just looking for an inch to sqeeze on around me. Then he will cut in front of me with another inch to spare and then start crowding his next objective.
This is a person who simply must win. I see he is able to pass about ten cars ahead of me and then gets off at the same off-ramp as I do. I pull in behind him and just hope that he is not going down to the marina to go sail/race.

Martin is right... sailing is a dumb way to get around on the water, especially if you need to get there quick. I think that's one of the reasons why I love it so much. Well, I also have a big old RV that I like to take out too. It gets a consistant 5 MPG so even just a little trip someplace is going to burn a full barrel or two. On my sail boat, I have had the same ten gallons of fuel onboard practically forever and I have been all over the place. I sailed passed a tanker as big as Cleveland the other day and thought, I am going to need most of that oil for my next RV vacation. (Now that's really dumb!)

Seth is right about performance advances all coming from the racers but I am not so sure about the safety. The racers are always pushing the envelope for more speed. The only objection I have is... I wouldn't want to go to sea in an envelope.

Merry Christmas!